General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Long Runs as a Percent of Weekly Distance - Daniel's Running Formula Rss Feed  
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2008-03-19 10:41 AM

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Subject: Long Runs as a Percent of Weekly Distance - Daniel's Running Formula

So, on a 13hr flight yesterday, I read Daniel's Running Formula cover to cover.  Yes, I'm a nerd...

Anyway, he prescribes long runs should be 25% of total weekly miles (e.g. a 48 mile week would include up to a 12mi long run).  For those veterans of Higdon's marathon plans, you know that 45-50% is more the norm (20mi LSD in a 40 mile week).  I've done three marathons and have had long runs of 18-20 miles in weeks that never went over 36 miles of total running.  I haven't had any serious set-backs (knock on wood).

Daniels also prescribes 2-3 "quality" sessions per week.  I, on the other hand, only have one "quality" session per week; either a tempo run or mile-repeats.  Perhaps my lower intensity weeks lend themselves better to a longer weekend run.  Another note on Daniels' book, is that he never mentions the recovery week that we triathletes tend to put in every three-four weeks.  This, perhaps, is another factor in staying healty in spite of disproportionately long LSD's.

I also recently had a Level II USAT Coach look at my training and say that my long runs were too big for my total miles (13-14mi runs on 25 mile weeks).  He said that I was flirting with dangerours territory in regard to injury, and should be closer to 30%.

I did make some adjustments to the remainder of my plan this year to keep long runs under 40% of total weekly miles.  40+ miles per week is uncharted territory for me.  I have a hard time pushing to 60 mile weeks in order to keep my 20 mile long run closer to the recommended percent of total miles.

What are some of the BT community experiences with regard to long runs, weekly mileage, marathon training and staying injury-free?

Edit: I attached a chart of my 2008 running plan (obviously doesn't include swim and bike portions).  Further evidence that yes, I am a tri-nerd.



Edited by mbmoran2 2008-03-19 10:48 AM




(2008 Running Chart.gif)



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2008 Running Chart.gif (51KB - 22 downloads)


2008-03-19 10:48 AM
in reply to: #1280379

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Subject: RE: Long Runs as a Percent of Weekly Distance - Daniel's Running Formula
I've been ok with the 50% rule for several seasons. I imagine though, it's because of the cross training on the bike and the swim.
2008-03-19 10:55 AM
in reply to: #1280379

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Subject: RE: Long Runs as a Percent of Weekly Distance - Daniel's Running Formula

I follow Pfitzinger-Douglas and their Advanced Marathoning book, which is like the marathon bible to me.  I'd peruse that one on your next long flight.

The typical plan has at least 5 runs a week in it with the more advanced ones doing 7 - 9.  These include general aerobic, tempo, marathon pace, long, medium-long, intervals and recovery runs.  Their mix is very specific to the goals for each period.  But to correlate it to Daniels, with the longest weeks where you are running 20 or 21 milers you are also doing the most mileage.  For the "short" plan that would be about 35% of the weekly mileage while for the medium and long plans that only works out to about 20 - 25% or so.  But in those plans we are also talking about 70 - 90 mile weeks.  And they will typically also include a 14 or 15 miler in the middle of the week.

Each running theory is different.  I think Daniel's book just lays out an overall scheme and doesn't lay out specific training plans in the same way that others do (I have not read it, so I'm not positive).  I would think that if you made a plan using Daniel's % that you would see some really high volume weeks, which is not always the best approach for newer runners.  My peak weeks for the marathon cycle I just finished were in the 69 mile range and that was a lot of running.  My month ended up being 262 miles in January.



Edited by Daremo 2008-03-19 10:56 AM
2008-03-19 11:02 AM
in reply to: #1280379

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Subject: RE: Long Runs as a Percent of Weekly Distance - Daniel's Running Formula

First, remember Daniels is writing for runners.  And generally for fairly competitive runners at that.

That said, the principles don't really change much for triathletes.  But practically it's more difficult to follow all his suggestions while trying to swim & bike as well.

45-50% of weekly mileage in the long run is not a very good idea generally.  The closer you can get that to 30-35%, the better (25% is very hard for a triathlete to achieve IMO and I'm generally close to 40% as well, so do as I say not as I do...).  But if you are just running, Daniels would argue that you should be running more before you try to do many 20-mile runs.  I realize many do marathons without doing so, but that just means they have accepted more risk in order to reach their goal in a fashion that works for them.

2-3 quality sessions again assume all you are doing is running.  1-2 quality sessions is probably more appropriate for a triathlete as you have to get quality bike & swims in there as well.  If you're just running, you should work on running more frequently and can get more quality sessions.

Recovery weeks have become a part of the 'periodization model' that many follow.  But there is no real reason to design a training program in this fashion.  Jorge (amiine) wrote a decent summary of thoughts on this either in another post here or on his blog.

Just some thoughts...

2008-03-19 2:05 PM
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Subject: RE: Long Runs as a Percent of Weekly Distance - Daniel's Running Formula
I have the same challenge. I really can only run 3x per week with two shorter training runs and one LSD on the weekends. The net result is that my longer runs make up way too high a percentage of my total weekly volume. I'm working to gradually increase both of my weekly runs, my long run and my total volume to get this back within reason but I'll never be able to put in a 50 or 60 mile week (to accommodate a 20 miles LSD). So, I'm working on just incremental increases in mileage and working on increasing my weekly runs...and praying a lot to the running gods ;-)

Oh and did someone say they had a way to pack 28 hours into a 24 hour day?

--Chris
2008-03-19 3:04 PM
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Subject: RE: Long Runs as a Percent of Weekly Distance - Daniel's Running Formula
Hmm...interesting...

Before I started tri training, I was running 7 days a week and my long run was never more than 33% of my weekly volume (usually more like 20-25%). Stayed injury-free throughout 2+ years like that. But...when I tried to translate that into marathon prep (without being able to dramatically increase my overall hours of running each week), it resulted in a pretty unpleasant first marathon. However, as preparation for 5K-12K, 35-40 miles a week with long runs between 7.1 and 10.4 was great for me...I was pretty consistently in the top 7-10% of the field at those distances.

Since starting to bike and swim--and esp. since taking on a more time-consuming job recently--my long run has shifted so as to be up to 50% or so during peak marathon training weeks (long runs of 18 to 20.1 miles). My run volume is now down into the 18-32 mi/wk range, due to the demands of work and the other disciplines. The result? I took an hour off my marathon time. But I've also had a couple of nagging injuries. So I suspect there's a trade-off...and probably a happy medium to be found. But I wouldn't skip the long runs I did pre-marathon just to stay within a pct-based formula...I can tell that the adaptation to that kind of duration of single running session made a huge difference in the experience of the marathon.

Edited by tcovert 2008-03-19 3:05 PM


2008-03-19 5:17 PM
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Subject: RE: Long Runs as a Percent of Weekly Distance - Daniel's Running Formula

Next week my long run is 14 miles and my other two runs are 3 & 4 so 66% of my running is from my long run. I have a coach who designs my training. I had run injuries last year and tend to fatigue in the run portion of tris so we are building up slowly to IM and doing things differently than he normally has folks train run wise for IM. I doubt my body could handle 60 miles of running the weeks I have 20 mile runs scheduled as well as 150+ miles of cycling plus swimming.

 

2008-03-19 5:42 PM
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Subject: RE: Long Runs as a Percent of Weekly Distance - Daniel's Running Formula

I have nothing in the way of advice, just my experience as an avid follower of Pfitz/Daniels. (Another Plug for Advanced Marathoning)

My Long Run as a percentage of total weekly volume is well less than 30% for both Marathon Training and Tri Training. (IM and HIM) My run volume is a bit on the high side in that I peak at about 70 MPW for HIM Training,  80 MPW for IM Training and Closer to 100 MPW for Open Marathon Training.

As for quality; the way my plan is constructed, quality is not measured in the number of workouts, but rather the number of miles. Many of my General Aerobic Workouts contain miles (Usually at the end) done at MP or even a bit faster. (In addition to LT, VO2Max, Progression Runs and Tuneup Races)

At least in my case, Quality is defined as a distance done at Marathon Pace or Faster. Quality miles as a measure of overall volume is usually ~15% or even a bit higher for non-cutback weeks. (Both Tri and Marathon Training) Cutback weeks are another show. Some of my friends run more quality but 15% seems to be a good balance for me at my current fitness level.

I do schedule cutback weeks at regular intervals and try to schedule tuneup races or Time Trials at the end of each one. The goal of a cutback week (And Taper Week) for me is to scale back the volume but at the same time, increase the intensity just a bit. The Tuneup Race (Or Time Trial) is used to re-adjust my training paces.

As far as injuries go, I am currently at ~5,000 miles of running injury free. (Running Related Injuries that is) because I train for Triathlons in the Spring/Summer and Marathon in the Fall/Winter, I get a bit of natural periodization going but this is also an important concept in the smaller scale also.

That is not to say I am injury proof. I might suggest that I am actually pretty prone to running related injuries. I am an under-pronator and a forefoot striker and so other parts of my body/legs are forced to absorb the shock of running. (Especially when my shoes go flat) I have to remain very diligent when it comes to shoe hygene and listening to my body. Niggles can quickly become injuries if I am not careful.

I try to get in as many miles as I can on trails, Beach Sand and the Track with quite a few done barefoot or in FiveFingers. (Yes, I am a closet Barefoot Runner) I don't mind running on concrete or asphalt but they tend to trash my shoes a bit quicker. My hope is that there will come a day when I can throw my shoes away and run/race naked

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