General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Improve ENDURANCE while improving overall SPEED?? Rss Feed  
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2010-04-30 11:26 AM

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Subject: Improve ENDURANCE while improving overall SPEED??
The Question: Is it possible to simultaneously increase endurance and increase speed? To the best of my knowledge, increasing endurance involves increasing training volume (i.e., training hours per week) by specifically increasing low-intensity training volume.

The low-intensity training takes up about 60-70% of the overall training hours in a given week (training for 1/2IM and IM). For the other 30-40%, a portion of this goes to tempo work, at or near race pace, and another portion goes to high intensity training. I should also not leave out strength training which may also take up some time.

There are an insane number of different high intensity training methods that are considered to be
good ways to improve overall speed: Interval Training, Plyometrics, Lactate Threshold Training, Aerobic Threshold training, Hill training... etc.

For someone who devotes around 10hrs per week to training, how is it possible to increase speed when only about 1.5 hours per week is devoted to the list of high intensity training methods above? i.e., 30 minutes per sport (swim, bike, run)
And if it is possible, with only 1.5 hours per week, how do you choose what to do? Hills? intervals? Plyometrics? Switch it around every week? What will increase overall performance?

My background:
I have been into triathlons for about 5 years now, with last year really being my first year when I actually maintained consistent training.
Now consistent training does not necessarily imply "smart" training, since for the most part of my training, I completed all swim, bike, and run workouts in an with my HR > 150.
Through the season, I was consistent, but showed no signs of improvement in overall speed in my races (total of 6 races - one half iron, two oly, three sprint). In particular, my swim pace, my bike pace, and my run pace all were within about 5% of each other, which can easily be explained by small variations in course difficulty and course length.

At the end of the season, I came to the conclusion that my speed in races had effectively peaked, and I was not going to get any better by continuing the same training (which was roughly 6 or 7 hrs per week).

At the same time, my plans for this year include more long distance events, and beginning preparation for a full ironman in 2011. Thus, my current weekly training hours are sitting at about 8-10 hrs per week and I am hoping to increase that further. At the same time I want to get FASTER!!! How can I do this?


2010-04-30 11:34 AM
in reply to: #2828568

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Subject: RE: Improve ENDURANCE while improving overall SPEED??
Adding in the intervals, or hills, or whatever will help.
My first 3 years of marathoning and 2 years of triathlon, all of my training was basicly at the same pace. I was able to finish my events, but wasn't really getting faster.
I started adding just a little bit of speed-doing some faster intervals on the treadmill or track, or doing some hill repeats on the bike and I saw improvement.
My advice is to choose one method of speed and do that for 2-4 weeks. There are TONS of free resources.

Also, do a field test for your threshold rate at the run and bike. Really try to use this as a guide when doing speed. Speed work will make you suffer, but you will get faster. 
2010-04-30 12:57 PM
in reply to: #2828593

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Subject: RE: Improve ENDURANCE while improving overall SPEED??
Thanks for the info.
Good to hear someone else who has trained consistently, and only maintained performance.
Side note, my PB Olympic from last yr was 2:26:00, (27:30swim, 1:09:30bike, 45:30run)
PB 40km Bike - 1:08:00 (it was during a triathlon)
PB 10km Run - 40:22 (running race)
PB 21.1km Run - 1:33:30 (running race)

There are variations in course difficulty, but one can expect that their run/bike times in a triathlon will be slower than that in a time trial. How close can one get to their time trial times in a triathlon?
within 5%?
2010-04-30 1:12 PM
in reply to: #2828568

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Subject: RE: Improve ENDURANCE while improving overall SPEED??
I set a PR for the 5K a week before setting a marathon PR.

I did no interval training whatsoever.
2010-04-30 1:33 PM
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Subject: RE: Improve ENDURANCE while improving overall SPEED??
Scout7 - 2010-04-30 2:12 PM I set a PR for the 5K a week before setting a marathon PR. I did no interval training whatsoever.


Ditto.  Although my 5k PR was about 3 weeks before the marathon--also a PR.
2010-04-30 1:39 PM
in reply to: #2828926

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Subject: RE: Improve ENDURANCE while improving overall SPEED??
So is there a consensus that improving endurance may naturally improve speed over shorter distances?


2010-04-30 1:40 PM
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Subject: RE: Improve ENDURANCE while improving overall SPEED??
Scout7 - 2010-04-30 1:12 PM

I set a PR for the 5K a week before setting a marathon PR.

I did no interval training whatsoever.


and? What does this mean? Just run more?
2010-04-30 1:40 PM
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Subject: RE: Improve ENDURANCE while improving overall SPEED??
JohnnyKay - 2010-04-30 1:33 PM
Scout7 - 2010-04-30 2:12 PM I set a PR for the 5K a week before setting a marathon PR. I did no interval training whatsoever.


Ditto.  Although my 5k PR was about 3 weeks before the marathon--also a PR.


Did you up mileage as part of the marathon training? 
2010-04-30 1:41 PM
in reply to: #2828568

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Subject: RE: Improve ENDURANCE while improving overall SPEED??
It has been my experience that just increasing volume leads to gains in speed. 
2010-04-30 1:45 PM
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Subject: RE: Improve ENDURANCE while improving overall SPEED??
tikicult - 2010-04-30 2:40 PM

Scout7 - 2010-04-30 1:12 PM

I set a PR for the 5K a week before setting a marathon PR.

I did no interval training whatsoever.


and? What does this mean? Just run more?


Yes.

I think I was somewhere between 55 and 75 miles per week leading up to those races.
2010-04-30 1:49 PM
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Subject: RE: Improve ENDURANCE while improving overall SPEED??
eliwashere - 2010-04-30 2:40 PM
JohnnyKay - 2010-04-30 1:33 PM
Scout7 - 2010-04-30 2:12 PM I set a PR for the 5K a week before setting a marathon PR. I did no interval training whatsoever.


Ditto.  Although my 5k PR was about 3 weeks before the marathon--also a PR.


Did you up mileage as part of the marathon training? 


Sort of.  I upped mileage as part of my goal to build my running endurance.  I took my running from ~30-40mpw to ~40-50mpw (roughly at least).  I didn't follow any kind of particular marathon plan.  I did a very few tempo runs (plus that 5k) and did some longer runs at/near marathon pace.  Otherwise, pretty much all easy running.


2010-04-30 2:37 PM
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Subject: RE: Improve ENDURANCE while improving overall SPEED??
crmorton - 2010-04-30 11:26 AM The Question: Is it possible to simultaneously increase endurance and increase speed? To the best of my knowledge, increasing endurance involves increasing training volume (i.e., training hours per week) by specifically increasing low-intensity training volume.

 

1st of all any training we do is focused at improving our fitness, that is to go faster, longer or both; I think the distinction you are getting at is to consider whether one could improve fitness by training at lower intensities which primarily maximizes muscle fatigue resistance (commonly referred as “endurance” ) and training at higher intensities which primarily maximize stuff like lactate threshold, Vo2 max, etc. In that case the answer to your question is yes.

Training zones are man made just as our way to make training more efficient but physiologically speaking our bodies doesn’t really know the difference between say zone 1 and zone 4 (however you define those) beyond one feels harder than the other. Also when you train at lesser intensities you still produce adaptations that are maximized at higher intensities and vice versa, but by spending more time in a particular zone you are just seeking to maximize particular adaptations.

Knowing the above then it should be easy to understand why a good training program will include a mix of training load (volume + intensity) depending on your goals, fitness level and time constraints and why even when spending lesser time at higher intensities you still get significant adaptations.

That said, I think most athletes train ‘too easy’ especially when their training budget is so limited. That doesn’t imply that athletes should train hard all the time but they probably would get greater fitness gains spending less time at lower intensities and a bit more at higher with the bulk of the training somewhere in between.

Finally, if your time budget is limited you might reconsider your strength training; it can be important addressing certain things like muscle imbalances and neuromuscular adaptations but it doesn’t have to be time consuming as it can be done in your home with simple exercises using your own weight (i.e. drills,  plyos) or stuff like elastic bands, etc.

2010-04-30 3:25 PM
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Subject: RE: Improve ENDURANCE while improving overall SPEED??
It seems like what you're asking is how to get faster without doing things that much differently than what you've been doing. 8-10 hours a week is barely sufficient to maintain what you have. It certainly is a limiter for improving both endurance and speed for longer races. You can very likely improve speed in that amount of time, but endurance takes far more training volume. So if your goal is to put up some fast times in sprints and olys, 8-10 hours may work. If your goal is to put up fast times in IMs you're going to need to greatly increase the time you train.

Go into the race reports here and find some people who put up fast times in IMs. If they have logs, take a look to see what they're doing. That may give you a good idea of what you may need to do.
2010-04-30 3:38 PM
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Subject: RE: Improve ENDURANCE while improving overall SPEED??
I consider myself to have pretty average intrinsic ability for endurance sports.

In my 20s, I tried the lo-volume hi-intensity approach to running. Ran up to 35mpw, more often closer to 25-30. 3 hard sprints per week, completely gut-busting. Also tried to run pretty fast whenever possible.

Maxxed out for 10 years with this training. Couldn't get under 20:40 for a 5k no matter how hard I worked.

Decided to ditch the big speed training and went to marathon training, which was much higher volume 50-70+mpw, but mostly run at aerobic paces. Still had one fast speedwork session per week.

Crushed my lifetime PR running bests - at age 30+, no less. Wasn't even close - I ran a low 18:xx, and was so shocked that I didn't believe it until I did it repeatedly in the following weeks. Made me absolutely convinced that hi-volume training is the way to really get better.

There are folks who are very fast with lo-volume training. But still, if these athletes did what I did and cranked up mileage, there is no doubt they would be much faster. This is why even professional milers still run 100 miles per week on average. If all you needed was the fast speed work with lo mileage, they would all do it, since the risk of injury is significant at 100+mpw compared to 30-50mpw.  
2010-04-30 6:47 PM
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Subject: RE: Improve ENDURANCE while improving overall SPEED??
Overdistance training (long low intensity) increases Vo2 max. This is an accepted fact in exercise physiology and was formerly thought to be the best way to increase VO2 max. Recent studies (oh, past 20 years or so) were done showing that higher intensity training increased VO2 max even more and thus an increase in athletes, trainers and coaches doing "HIIT" training as well.

So yes, going long makes you faster by increasing the bodies ability to utilize oxygen.

All training is basically a continuum of this, including ultra high intensity intervals like tabata protocol for example. All of them are going to elicit some sort of aerobic training response to varying degrees:

-increase in oxidative enzymes
-increase in cross sectional size of slow twitch muscle fibers
-increase in mitochondrial density
-increase in capillary density
-increase in hemoglobin production
-increase in the heart's ability to pump blood (Vo2 max).

You can get super geeked out from an ex phys sense on how hard, how long, what rest interval, how many repeats and so on (I really enjoy studying that). or you could follow a plan from a well trusted coach with results and trust in her experience.

or hire a personal coach with a background in exercise physiology.

All of those things can help you get faster and go longer.

2010-05-05 3:15 PM
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Subject: RE: Improve ENDURANCE while improving overall SPEED??
Thanks for all the feedback.
I will do my best to assess whether it is time to move up to IM distance and increase training volume (not sure if I can make the time at this point), or stay at the Oly dist with my current 9hrs per week of training (on average).
I am still going to do a couple 1/2IM distance events this summer, but the big question is do I drive down to Lake Placid and sign up for the IM, or do I wait another year...



 


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