General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Race-Day photos - Am I being a jerk? Rss Feed  
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2010-06-23 9:29 PM
in reply to: #2938164

Subject: RE: Race-Day photos - Am I being a jerk?
I'm a semi talented photographer... am I a D Bag for taking pictures at an event and posting the images on someplace like shutterfly, snapfish, or some other online resource.  My camera is paid for, and the internet is lumped in with my cable bill.....   I would want you to do it for me...




2010-06-23 11:48 PM
in reply to: #2940144

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Subject: RE: Race-Day photos - Am I being a jerk?
nc452010 - 2010-06-23 5:32 PM

If she didn't accept (hypothetically) my deal, she'd be $50 shy of her maximum profit.



Perhaps... but there are many indirect consequences of this. Hypothetically other triathletes reading this thread who may have been willing to pay full price will now ask for a discounted rate since "they gave such and such photos for $50" which may lower her profit vs. outright rejecting lower offers. Or you might offer less even though you are willing to pay full price, which would also be a loss of profit.

I'm glad you both came to an agreement, but as backwards as it may seem $50 is not always better than $0 in the long term.
2010-06-24 12:40 AM
in reply to: #2940372

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Subject: RE: Race-Day photos - Am I being a jerk?
chandy14ski - 2010-06-23 11:29 PM  am I a D Bag for taking pictures at an event and posting the images online



No, it's because you took those photos in the women's washroom last week and posted them online  

Edited by blairrob 2010-06-24 12:50 AM
2010-06-24 7:49 AM
in reply to: #2940529

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Subject: RE: Race-Day photos - Am I being a jerk?
Synon - 2010-06-24 12:48 AM
nc452010 - 2010-06-23 5:32 PM

If she didn't accept (hypothetically) my deal, she'd be $50 shy of her maximum profit.



Perhaps... but there are many indirect consequences of this. Hypothetically other triathletes reading this thread who may have been willing to pay full price will now ask for a discounted rate since "they gave such and such photos for $50" which may lower her profit vs. outright rejecting lower offers. Or you might offer less even though you are willing to pay full price, which would also be a loss of profit.

I'm glad you both came to an agreement, but as backwards as it may seem $50 is not always better than $0 in the long term.


...or even better; instead of sitting there with hundreds of zeros, maybe now she gets hundreds of offers for something.  Woot... win win!  

400 people at an event:  Charge is $90 and she gets 10%, the result is $3,600
                                         Offers of $40 and she gets 50%, the result is  $8,000

I believe she is going to have the same costs no matter what.  From what I have seen, the people taking the pics are a constant cost and they seem to sort all the pics so that is constant as well.  Once the pics are there, they may as well generate revenue since any subsequent work is minimal.  It's not like they are developing film here.

Now, he could have worded that better by stating "maximum revenue" instead of "maximum profit." 
2010-06-24 7:56 AM
in reply to: #2938164

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Subject: RE: Race-Day photos - Am I being a jerk?
I didn't offer her a "discounted rate".  We invented a hybrid package that wasn't on her menu!  If others read this; figure out there's not a package offered that suits their wants....and do similarly.....

MY guess is - the photographer WINS.

jeff
2010-06-24 8:12 AM
in reply to: #2938164

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Subject: RE: Race-Day photos - Am I being a jerk?
This is a long thread and, admittedly, I haven't read every reply but the word "jerk" didn't come to mind. You made an offer, the photographer can accept or not. End of story. I don't think either of you are being jerks. It's just capitalism.

Photography equipment, gas, time (both during the race and post processing), insurance, and everything else that it costs to run a business isn't cheap. I think people should be happy they even have the option to get pictures at a sprint, I think the margins are likely razor thin so it's surprising they even bother coming out for a small race.

Everyone is free to make value decision on prints. I've bought them and not bought them. Life goes on.


2010-06-24 8:23 AM
in reply to: #2940550

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Subject: RE: Race-Day photos - Am I being a jerk?
blairrob - 2010-06-24 1:40 AM
chandy14ski - 2010-06-23 11:29 PM  am I a D Bag for taking pictures at an event and posting the images online



No, it's because you took those photos in the women's washroom last week and posted them online  


Well, what if he offered to not post them for $90 a person?
2014-04-25 11:51 AM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: Race-Day photos - Am I being a jerk?
I run a business that is very creative, artistic, skilled and EXPENSIVE. When I hear, "I could buy that at xxx for $100", I answer, "no you couldn't, you could get something that looks similar." And if that is their desire, more power to them, probably wouldn't be a good client to work with anyway.
Now if someone tells me that my price is too high and tries to offer me a lower price, I'd be offended and simply pass on the project. Because they aren't just buying the product, they are buying my education, experience and quality.
Maybe I'm foolish, buy yes, I'd rather take $0 than be low-balled.

Edited by pwoolson 2014-04-25 11:58 AM
2014-04-25 12:15 PM
in reply to: pwoolson

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Subject: RE: Race-Day photos - Am I being a jerk?
Originally posted by pwoolson

I run a business that is very creative, artistic, skilled and EXPENSIVE. When I hear, "I could buy that at xxx for $100", I answer, "no you couldn't, you could get something that looks similar." And if that is their desire, more power to them, probably wouldn't be a good client to work with anyway.
Now if someone tells me that my price is too high and tries to offer me a lower price, I'd be offended and simply pass on the project. Because they aren't just buying the product, they are buying my education, experience and quality.
Maybe I'm foolish, buy yes, I'd rather take $0 than be low-balled.


Resurrecting a 4 year old post, sweet!
2014-04-25 12:46 PM
in reply to: reecealan

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Subject: RE: Race-Day photos - Am I being a jerk?
Originally posted by reecealan

Resurrecting a 4 year old post, sweet!


At least it was a completely awesome one.

2014-04-25 12:58 PM
in reply to: Goosedog

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Subject: RE: Race-Day photos - Am I being a jerk?

ZOMBIE THREAD!



2014-04-25 3:08 PM
in reply to: reecealan

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Subject: RE: Race-Day photos - Am I being a jerk?
Strange.
I, admittedly, haven't checked in here for awhile. But this thread was the 3rd in the "general discussion" list.
Oh, well, please forgive my contribution.
2014-04-25 3:41 PM
in reply to: nc452010

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Subject: RE: Race-Day photos - Am I being a jerk?
Originally posted by nc452010

I disagree with nothing you siad, mmrocker.

I'm wondering - in what book is $0 is a better business model than $50.




The only flaw in this logic is that you are assuming all the editing and cropping and touch ups are already done. (maybe they are - I have no idea). You $50 may not be worth it to the photographer if they know they still need to do work for them.
2014-04-26 4:13 AM
in reply to: jamgam

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Subject: RE: Race-Day photos - Am I being a jerk?
Originally posted by jamgam

You have to remember though, photography isn't just sitting behind the camera.  The images have to be processed, cropped, sharpened etc and that takes time, effort and know how.


I have yet to see race photos where they have bothered. I've been presented with photos that were unfocused and centered on a different athlete or poorly framed. I've even been offered to pay 20€ for a photo of me crossing the finish line - only that it was a huge crowd, and I was some unidentifiable blob on the far end - yay!

Judging from the photos I've seen, they are not the photographers that Runners magazine would hire. They have no idea of angling and framing a good sports photo or setting the camera for action. They just shoot bulk with everything on auto and jpg. Their main work is tagging photos with race numbers, and when these are not visible guesstimate based on time of photos and your registered splits.

Race photos in my experience are generally way overpriced, their quality just doesn't justify the price. Sometimes they offer a prepaid photos, at just 3€, which I always take. But no way would I pay $90 or even $50 for a few photos.

I think that race photographers would do better business if they lowered the price and then sold them at $2-3 each, or if race organisers hired photographers and let the photos be included in the racefee, that would likely get more satisfied participants. After all, most of us just want a new photo to share on facebook, no need for 8 hours photoshopping.
2014-04-26 7:41 AM
in reply to: pwoolson

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Subject: RE: Race-Day photos - Am I being a jerk?

Originally posted by pwoolson Strange. I, admittedly, haven't checked in here for awhile. But this thread was the 3rd in the "general discussion" list. Oh, well, please forgive my contribution.

More likely it was third in the "Related Posts" list that appears at the bottom of threads. Happens all the time. probably the leading cause of zombie thread resurrection.

2014-04-26 9:26 AM
in reply to: the bear

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Subject: RE: Race-Day photos - Am I being a jerk?
Im actually glad this came up.

Recently ran a 5k and they had 10 stock photos of me running only 1 of which was any good.
I would have liked to get that photo, but they wanted $50 for the group of them.

I can do a lot w\ $50.
I emailed offering $10 for an emailed jpeg.
they didn't even respond.

They lose a small amount of revenue, I don't get a marginally ok picture. (I have others that friends took).

Now onto the other posts about value and education etc.

The company who took the photos used - or hired - a bunch of what I assumed were HS/College kids out there with their cameras taking photos.
Most were out of focus. I am assuming they paid these folks a marginal wage and or had them volunteer as part of their curriculum at school.
-Then applied whatever software recognition to pluck out bib numbers and sort them.
-Or again paid someone some small wage to weed through all the photos.

The value proposition wasn't there for me at $50 - apparently the value proposition wasn't there for the photo company at $10.

either way no deal.


2014-04-26 11:32 AM
in reply to: Clarkey77

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Subject: RE: Race-Day photos - Am I being a jerk?

Originally posted by Clarkey77...Then applied whatever software recognition to pluck out bib numbers and sort them.

 

Just a note on this, about how much work Some of these photography companies put into sorting their photos:

Not too long ago when looking at my race photos I was not even in 4 of my shots right before the finish line.  I looked up the bib numbers of people that finished a second or two behind of me and found myself in a few of their photos. So I e-mailed the photo company about this and was told that the finish line photos are not even sorted by people at all, they are simply sorted by finishing time (and since I was going slightly faster than average down the chute they missed me).

So ya in some cases the photography companies don't do any work sorting the photos at all, they just dump them into the computer, sync it up with the chip timing system and be done with it.  (of course, to be fair this was a very large race with 50,000 participants, I'm sure the smaller events don't do this).

2014-04-26 3:01 PM
in reply to: aquageek


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Subject: RE: Race-Day photos - Am I being a jerk?
Originally posted by aquageek

nc452010 - 2010-06-23 8:34 AM

I disagree with nothing you siad, mmrocker.

I'm wondering - in what book is $0 is a better business model than $50.



I'f I'm running a business and my customers pay the price I find reasonable, why would I accept less and ultimately end up hurting my business model in the long term?  You don't like the product or price, don't buy it but don't expect the business owner to find what you offer to be reasonable just because you do.  If I don't like the $30,000 car, why should I expect the dealer to accept $15,000 for it?  There are many business models where $0 is better than another higher number, many, millions in fact. 



Your logic is flawed.

There is a large, competitive market for a car. Hence, if i dont pay the "market rate" for it, someone else most likely will.

The market for MY race photo, is one person-ME. If i dont buy it at the "market rate," most likely, no one else will.
2014-04-28 1:43 PM
in reply to: #2938164

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Subject: RE: Race-Day photos - Am I being a jerk?
Just a fun update to this!

Ran a 5k yesterday and they had about 10 photos of the finish downloadable for free!

Looks like the used your finish time and used the 10 photos prior to that time as stated above!
2014-04-28 2:27 PM
in reply to: Clarkey77

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Subject: RE: Race-Day photos - Am I being a jerk?

Ha, zombie thread!

Last race I was able to buy low res pictures for $15 & high res for $25, thought the lo res was reasonable but didn't buy it.  More than happy with the Snipit!

Locally there's a guy that takes photo's at all the races and posts them all on Facebook.  No guarantee he'll capture you and doesn't do the finish line.  He has a PayPal link for making donations if you so wish too.  He's retired and does it for a hobby. 

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