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2010-10-22 2:07 PM

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Subject: Question on Race Pace vs Training Pace for Run
As a new runner (yes, I'm also a new swimmer and a new cyclist...), one of the things I'm learning is to patient with the run and increase volume/intensity in small increments.  I've learned the hard way a few times already this year when I strained something in my calf/gastroc area just prior to my first Oly tri so had to run that race not completely fit.  I did this by doing intervals at too much of a jump from my training pace.   For some background, I started running a little bit earlier this year (local 5K runs) and by May, I am able to do a 7:20/mile pace on stand-alone 5K races.  In the 3 sprint tris I've done, my run leg pace was somewhere around 7:48-8:00.  In the Oly that I just finished, I ran it at a pace of 8:20/mile - which was conservative since I was still nursing that injury.  I've been running around 20 miles per week but cut it down the last couple of weeks for tapering (and then injury recovery).

I've followed the McMillan recommendations (derived from my best 5k run)  for my long runs by running them around a 9:30-9:40 pace.  However, I also have some tempo runs in my training plan and the Mcmillan tempo pace for me is around 7:48-8:00.   I did a tempo run yesterday and all went well (ran 5 miles - 1.5 miles warm-up/2.5 miles tempo around 7:50, 1 mile cooldown).  However, by the evening, I was feeling a slight tenderness and soreness in my Achilles tendon area (different leg than the one I previously injured).

Some questions:

1.  Is tenderness after a tempo run 'normal'?  It's not painful, and I'm not limping but when I massage the area, there's definitely more soreness there than normal.  If it's not, should I not have run that 2.5 mile tempo portion that fast?  I felt in control, breathing was fine, felt like a comfortable 10k pace.

2.  If I'm running primarily in that 9:00-9:30/mile range during training, wouldn't running a 5K or 10K race below 8:00 be a huge jump and opening up to a high risk of injury? 

3.  I have a 10-mile race coming up next week (tune-up for first half-marathon in 6 weeks).  If it's not my main race, should I run this at a pace that closer to my training pace (say 8:45/mile) or do I attempt to go faster?  My current plan was to start it around 9:00 the first mile, then run around 8:45 until the 5 mile mark,  and then start going faster but just a bit worried about how much faster I should push.  I can probably get down to around 8:00 but wondering if that would cause my legs/calves to be sore/injured - something I don't want to do since it's not my main race.  For those of you who sign up for a race which is a 'tune-up' race on the path to a longer race that is your "A" race - do you just throttle it back so that it's pretty much just a training run or do you actually race it and use it to determine your fitness coming into the "A" race.

Running by RPE is a bit difficult for me, in terms of how much I'm exposing myself to injury. The last 2 times I got injured, I felt fine, was running along just fine, then a few hours later, something is hurting or I'm limping, etc.

Thanks!


2010-10-22 2:14 PM
in reply to: #3167489

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Subject: RE: Question on Race Pace vs Training Pace for Run
I can't answer your first two questions because I think everyone is different - I only know how I'd react.  As for question 3 - I've never been able to run a race at training pace, even if I tell myself I'm going to.  I use tune-up races to see if I can maintain the pace I want to do the longer race in.  They force me to run at my goal race pace - I can't seem to be able to do that in training.
2010-10-22 2:31 PM
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Subject: RE: Question on Race Pace vs Training Pace for Run
1) Normal is a funny word. It might be, but it might be a sign you're riding that razor's edge. If you're that freaked out about possibly getting injured, then back off the intensity for a week.

2) No. In fact, running harder than your easy efforts once in a while is recommended. The saying is run lots, mostly easy, sometimes hard. Not "never hard". Now, if you're running your easy days too hard, then yes, you're going to increase your chances.

3) My opinion is that if you have a race, you give it your best effort. I don't sign up for a race and intentionally run at an easier effort because it's not my goal race. I run it with the very best effort I can that day.

You seem preoccupied with the possibility of getting injured. Is there a reason for this?
2010-10-22 2:40 PM
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Subject: RE: Question on Race Pace vs Training Pace for Run
Tenderness in the Achilles after any kind of run is not normal and not good.  I had that after a long run last week so I didn't run again until Tuesday to let it heal up.  When I ran after 5 days off I only got a mile before it was flaring up.

I can't comment on whether it was your tempo speed relative to your training speed that caused the problem but something happened during that run that wasn't quite right.  It might just be the cumulative result of a minor form issue that you've been running with for a long time.

If I were you right now I wouldn't be worrying so much about how fast to run the race next weekend but whether it's a good idea to do it at all.  After two chiropractic visits (ultrasound and graston) I'm going to attempt a 2-3 mile easy run this weekend and hopefully be in good enough condition to run a 5k next weekend at my normal training pace.  Make sure you're icing the ankle and if it's not quite right but you want to keep training anyway you should see a professional to make sure you're not going to make it worse.
2010-10-22 3:04 PM
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Subject: RE: Question on Race Pace vs Training Pace for Run

There is a saying - Speedwork is icing on the cake and you don't have a cake yet. IMO, you're doing speedwork before you've built a solid base. A solid base would be a minimum of 25 miles/week for 4-6+ months. Almost all of it would be at an easy pace with only an occasional harder effort. The more volume you can put into base building the better - up to a point. Most people never get close to that point though. Base building will develop the muscles, tendons, etc., that are needed to do other workouts, such as tempo runs or intervals. Without developing the physiological adaptations gained from a solid base, the body often can't handle the stress of speed.

You're doing what most of us have done - wanting to run fast before you're ready.

With that in mind,

1. The pace was OK. It was the duration. You may not be ready to run that far in training at that pace.

2. I run lots of miles in the 8:45-9:15 range and race at sub 7 for 5 & 10Ks. Injuries have never been a problem from doing this.

3. A race is a race. Give it your best effort. See what McMillan predicts for you based on your 5K time. See how close you can come. Use the results to determine what you need to do for the next race. For example, if McMillan says you should run a 7:30 pace and you're only able to hold that for 3-4 miles, then that suggests you need to increase your endurance capabilities through more volume. If you can hold the pace for the whole race and feel like you could have one faster, then working on speed might be a better plan. A race this far out from your goal race can be very beneficial in determining where to put your efforts in the weeks afterward.

2010-10-22 3:19 PM
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Subject: RE: Question on Race Pace vs Training Pace for Run
I'm a new runner, too.

I find running at "race pace", during training, impossible (could be a product of where I do my training runs = hills).  I did do some runs at what I considered "race intensity".  My race pace in my recent HM was nearly 1mm faster than my training pace long runs......and :30m faster than my "tempo" runs.

YMMV

ftr....I feel like my training, leading up to my race, was "mostly semi-easy".  I pushed it harder than what "I" would consider "easy" on 90% of my training runs.  My "sometimes hard" was a step up from that.

Did I short-change myself on the "hard" days?  Maybe.  Did I do myself good on the "mostly semi-easy" days?  I think so.  I don't think I could be accused of taking it too easy.  IMO, running at Z2 (forget Z1) was an exercise in futility.  I'd have been walking.

I've yet to duplicate "race pace" on any training day.  My best times in every discipline have come in races.

Edited by nc452010 2010-10-22 3:21 PM


2010-10-22 5:26 PM
in reply to: #3167560

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Subject: RE: Question on Race Pace vs Training Pace for Run
Scout7 - 2010-10-22 2:31 PM 1) Normal is a funny word. It might be, but it might be a sign you're riding that razor's edge. If you're that freaked out about possibly getting injured, then back off the intensity for a week. 2) No. In fact, running harder than your easy efforts once in a while is recommended. The saying is run lots, mostly easy, sometimes hard. Not "never hard". Now, if you're running your easy days too hard, then yes, you're going to increase your chances. 3) My opinion is that if you have a race, you give it your best effort. I don't sign up for a race and intentionally run at an easier effort because it's not my goal race. I run it with the very best effort I can that day. You seem preoccupied with the possibility of getting injured. Is there a reason for this?


It's just I seem to be able to push pretty hard on the bike, and lately, the swim without feeling more than generally 'sore' and 'tired'.  However with the running, I get these more focused soreness areas that I'm not used to and it makes me paranoid.
2010-10-22 5:28 PM
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Subject: RE: Question on Race Pace vs Training Pace for Run
1.  Soreness in a muscle is one thing (as long as there are no knots present, that fatigue is part of building power), but in a tendon, it's another.  I'd ice the area and be very attentive on your next run:  If you start to feel any discomfort in the Achilles, shut down your run.

2.  I do the majority of my (non-speedwork) training in a range from 7:45-8:45/mile.  I run a 5K race around 6:25/mi. and a 10K around 7:00.  Based on my n=1 sample, 5K/10K pace around a minute under your training pace range normally shouldn't be anything to worry about.

3.  Personally, I don't do "tune up" races--I do races.  In any case, your 10 miler is a perfect opportunity to test your goal pace for the HM.  Even if you were to get injured, 5 weeks is enough time to get mostly healed before the HM (even most instances of tendonitis will resolve by 6-8 weeks with rehab...by 5 weeks, you'd probably be good enough to go).  There's little downside to going hard on the 10 miler.

The whole prone-to-injury thing is another issue, though.  Sounds like you may be going too hard overall for a "new" runner (or pushing individual workouts too much on not enough of a running base).  You might want to start dialling back the tempo runs and gradually getting your weekly mileage back up a bit before spending a lot of time going fast.  The other possibility is that you've got some form issues (posture/imbalance) that are causing injuries.
2010-10-22 5:28 PM
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Subject: RE: Question on Race Pace vs Training Pace for Run
thndrcloud - 2010-10-22 2:40 PM Tenderness in the Achilles after any kind of run is not normal and not good.  I had that after a long run last week so I didn't run again until Tuesday to let it heal up.  When I ran after 5 days off I only got a mile before it was flaring up.

I can't comment on whether it was your tempo speed relative to your training speed that caused the problem but something happened during that run that wasn't quite right.  It might just be the cumulative result of a minor form issue that you've been running with for a long time.

If I were you right now I wouldn't be worrying so much about how fast to run the race next weekend but whether it's a good idea to do it at all.  After two chiropractic visits (ultrasound and graston) I'm going to attempt a 2-3 mile easy run this weekend and hopefully be in good enough condition to run a 5k next weekend at my normal training pace.  Make sure you're icing the ankle and if it's not quite right but you want to keep training anyway you should see a professional to make sure you're not going to make it worse.


It's definitely not anything painful - it just feels 'new' and 'different' to the soreness I would get when training hard for cycling or swimming.  In fact, it's pretty much gone, about 36 hrs later, but I'm just wondering whether that's normal.  I've noticed it only happens when I go faster for longer than half a mile or so.

2010-10-22 5:39 PM
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Subject: RE: Question on Race Pace vs Training Pace for Run
donskiman and tcovert - thanks for the help.   I think I'm guilty of 'not-having-enough-base'.  I'm more of a sprinter/fast-twitch type and I don't find it too hard to get up to speed but I don't think I've done enough base building.  I'm really only been seriously training for running since probably about August.  Before that, I was training but probably only about 10-12 miles per week - enough to get me through the 5k run of my sprints. My runs would be about 4 miles long, maybe a little longer.  I don't have a running background and was able to do that 7:20 pace on a 5k after about 3 months of that kind of training.  I started cycling more and probably ended up building a base for that as I rode 3-4x/week over the summer - most rides at least 30 miles long, weekend rides would be 50-70 miles.

I have not put nearly that kind of time in my run and I really shouldn't be doing 2.5 miles of tempo at this time.  I'm going to tweak my training schedule a bit and run more at the 9:00-9:30 pace (with a few 30sec surges/fartlek thrown in).  Gotta build the cake before throwing in the icing!  I'll do more speedwork AFTER my first half marathon in early December.  I already have a 2nd half marathon planned at the end of February, so I'll have another 8 weeks to train for that one and that would be a better time to incorporate tempo runs of longer duration.

I appreciate all your help!
2010-10-25 9:32 AM
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Subject: RE: Question on Race Pace vs Training Pace for Run

Quick update - since I posted on Friday, I ran about a 4 mi run on Saturday, after completely staying off running on Friday.  Calves felt fine so I did about 3 mi at 'race pace' which I targeted to be around 8:20/mi.  No problems the next day so decided to do my long run - 9 miles - which is the longest I've ever run.  Did this at around 9:40/mi pace and finished comfortably. Did about a 3.5 mi recovery run today (around 9:45/mi pace) and everything felt fine.

I think the soreness I experienced after the tempo run is probably 'normal' since it wasn't painful, just a bit sore (especially when I massaged it).  I am also learning that beginner lesson on what pace to run at what durations/distances to prevent injury. I'm keeping my 'speed' portions as short 30-45 sec surges during my runs and keep the pure speed workouts away for at least a few more weeks of averaging 25+ miles/week.

I have a 15k race this coming Sunday and will try to see how long I can pace 8:20/mile. It's just a tune-up race so if I feel too tired, I'll just shut it down and coast in.



2010-11-15 12:37 PM
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Subject: RE: Question on Race Pace vs Training Pace for Run
Another update - I ran that 15K race and stuck with my race plan - which was going to be HR based since it's a hilly course.  I kept my HR about 5-7 bpm lower than my anaerobic threshold for first 3.5 miles, then went a little harder during next 3.5 miles, then ran the last 2+ miles like a 5K race.  I finished in 1:13 which was a 7:52/mile pace over 9.3 miles (incidentally, right exactly where McMillan predicted I would end up based on 5K race in April).  I did feel like I ran the first part too conservatively but I didn't have experience at this distance and it's better to have too much left than to run out on my first race. 

I felt fine post-race and besides the usual fatigue/muscle soreness the following day, I was pretty much ready to get back to my half-marathon training by Wed.

Next goal is my first half-marathon in 3 weeks.  McMillan predicts an 8:02/mile pace (1:45 race time) but I'll employ a similar race plan that I used for 15K - run first 4 miles about 5-7bpm lower than my threshold, then run about 7 miles 2-4 bpm below threshold, ramping up to 5K speed for the last 2+ miles.
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