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2010-11-05 9:18 AM
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Subject: RE: Good form running technique - similar pain issues as minimalist shoes
JorgeM - 2010-11-04 9:21 AM
AdventureBear - 2010-11-03 2:57 PM
JorgeM - 2010-11-03 7:57 AM It is normal to encounter resistance to an opinion that goes against popular belief or what some perceive as gospel, even though said opinion is backed up with evidence beyond anecdotes. The resistance is greater from those who might benefit from keeping the popular belief alive (i.e. selling you something)
What I find curious is that there is a current change of tide or swing of paradigm. What's the popular belief? What's the gospel? If you're saying that current popular belief & gospel is to work on running form, well then it's only a change that's been made in the recent past. I'd say that overwhelmingly the popular belief is to run more, spend more time in training. ATM I'm not arguing one way or the other, but find it interesting that changing form is now being considered the popular belief. Could it simply be that this group of people is simply making more noise while still being in the minority?


As far as I can remember people have expressed the idea of running with 'good form' as something we all ought to do, though if you ask the same people how can we accomplish that, they either don't know or tell you different things. McGee suggests one way, Pose another, Chi another, Evolution another. Nevertheless the current evidence suggest some of this approaches might work or just be guesses wild at best and hindering performance at worst. It also shows how even elite runners can exhibit different biomechanical treats from one another and some excel even with seemingly unorthodox styles usualy perceived as "poor form" by experts.

What's great for some, won't be for others and that's the key of the argument; when people try to apply this one-size fits all approach you see athletes struggling with nagging pains or injuries. All because they changed something that most likely didn't need much changing in the 1st place. In cases when injuries are recurrent, training load is the main suspect, next is biomechanical issue and muscle imbalances, but those have to be assessed individually and even so, the fix most often than not can be as simple adding some resistance training, managing load and maybe looking into equipment (shoes), yet the 1st most people suggest forcing a change in the athlete's gait/mechanics.

The idea of "good running form" is what I regard as a popular belief and even treated as gospel by some (many).


So you're saying weight lifting will make all my pain go away and make me faster in swim, bike and run???

Just kidding, I'm well aware that weight training is a volitile subject....And Jorge you've weighed in on some threads in the past and had good comments on the subject. 

As I'm reading the various responses and applying my own experience to the mix, it's definitely true that we're all experiments of one.  Obviously thought, analysis and experience is needed for each individual.

I'm still evaluating things, I truly believe the change in form for me has given me a more comfortable stride and my feet are landing under my center of gravity which we all should do.

I think my next area of analysis is with my orthoticist to review my running style against my custom orthotics and shoes.  Someone pointed out that the thick heel pad will made me adjust my foot strike more to be able to land mid to fore-foot and that's a valid comment to be looked at.



2010-11-05 11:22 AM
in reply to: #3194525

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Subject: RE: Good form running technique - similar pain issues as minimalist shoes
JorgeM - 2010-11-04 7:21 AM

The idea of "good running form" is what I regard as a popular belief and even treated as gospel by some (many).


Then each of us must be exposed to different crowds...the popular belief that I see is that everyone runs "naturally best" with their current gait.
2010-11-05 11:28 AM
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Subject: RE: Good form running technique - similar pain issues as minimalist shoes
AdventureBear - 2010-11-05 12:22 PM

JorgeM - 2010-11-04 7:21 AM

The idea of "good running form" is what I regard as a popular belief and even treated as gospel by some (many).


Then each of us must be exposed to different crowds...the popular belief that I see is that everyone runs "naturally best" with their current gait.


I don't think that's how I would characterize it.

Instead, I would say that the belief is each individual would be better served developing his or her gait through running more, and doing drills that strengthen and enhance the individual gait, rather than forcing it to conform to some specific idea of what good form looks like.
2010-11-05 4:57 PM
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Subject: RE: Good form running technique - similar pain issues as minimalist shoes
TriMike - 2010-11-05 8:18 AM

I think my next area of analysis is with my orthoticist to review my running style against my custom orthotics and shoes.  Someone pointed out that the thick heel pad will made me adjust my foot strike more to be able to land mid to fore-foot and that's a valid comment to be looked at.



I see 2 potential problems with relying on the footwear, rather than body mechanics, to 'assist' you with your running form.

A thicker heel pad may force to land more on your toes, sort of like high heels. But the other side of this coin is that by elevating the heel, you are preventing your foot from dorsiflexing after contact (preventing the heel from contacting the ground briefly after the footstrike). This dorsiflexion allows the achilles & calf to absorb more of the energy, which is given back to you in the form of elastic recoil for your next pushoff (like free speed). In addition, the more your foot can dorsiflex, the more the energy can be dissapated in the lower leg and less transmitted up to the knees & lower back. For me this is a major issue. When I run barefoot, zero back or knee pain. Put on shoes, and the elevated heel interferes with this aspect of my stride.

The second issue is that landing on the forefoot is far less important than simply landing with your weight under the center of gravity. If you are already doing this well, then by all means continue to experiment with other foot strikes if you like. But landing under the center of gravity is probably the most important aspect of "good form" to try and achieve.
2010-11-05 8:00 PM
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Subject: RE: Good form running technique - similar pain issues as minimalist shoes
newbz - 2010-11-02 6:05 PM yes, regardless of your footstrike you want it under and not in front of you. if its right for you (it is for me), there is nothing wrong with heel striking,


It has also been demonstrated (by a scientific study employing video analysis) to be right for about 60% of elite runners at the half marathon distance (vs. 2% who employ a forefoot strike).

I watch a lot of runners out on the multiuse path I train on several days a week and see a lot of people bounding (or mincing) along on the balls of their feet in their VFFs or minimalist shoes while appearing to blithely ignore the bigger problems they have:  Poor posture, unnecessary tension, lack of balance and symmetry.  Your legs and feet generally know how to run without taking a class...people are way too quick to ascribe running injuries to running shoes (or footstrike) without examining all the things they are doing in terms of relaxation and posture that are every bit as likely to contribute to the problem.
2010-11-05 8:57 PM
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Subject: RE: Good form running technique - similar pain issues as minimalist shoes
tcovert - 2010-11-05 7:00 PM
I watch a lot of runners out on the multiuse path I train on several days a week and see a lot of people bounding (or mincing) along on the balls of their feet in their VFFs or minimalist shoes while appearing to blithely ignore the bigger problems they have:  Poor posture, unnecessary tension, lack of balance and symmetry.  Your legs and feet generally know how to run without taking a class...people are way too quick to ascribe running injuries to running shoes (or footstrike) without examining all the things they are doing in terms of relaxation and posture that are every bit as likely to contribute to the problem.


So true for swimming as well, and for biking but to a lesser degree than swimming & running!


2010-11-05 9:55 PM
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Subject: RE: Good form running technique - similar pain issues as minimalist shoes
Scout7 - 2010-11-05 12:28 PM
AdventureBear - 2010-11-05 12:22 PM
JorgeM - 2010-11-04 7:21 AM The idea of "good running form" is what I regard as a popular belief and even treated as gospel by some (many).
Then each of us must be exposed to different crowds...the popular belief that I see is that everyone runs "naturally best" with their current gait.
I don't think that's how I would characterize it. Instead, I would say that the belief is each individual would be better served developing his or her gait through running more, and doing drills that strengthen and enhance the individual gait, rather than forcing it to conform to some specific idea of what good form looks like.


Bingo.
2010-11-08 2:04 AM
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Subject: RE: Good form running technique - similar pain issues as minimalist shoes
JorgeM - 2010-11-04 2:21 PM
What's great for some, won't be for others and that's the key of the argument; when people try to apply this one-size fits all approach you see athletes struggling with nagging pains or injuries. All because they changed something that most likely didn't need much changing in the 1st place. In cases when injuries are recurrent, training load is the main suspect, next is biomechanical issue and muscle imbalances, but those have to be assessed individually and even so, the fix most often than not can be as simple adding some resistance training, managing load and maybe looking into equipment (shoes), yet the 1st most people suggest forcing a change in the athlete's gait/mechanics.


I honestly couldn't agree with the majority of this statement more. I coach a number of runners and triathletes in improving their running gait. The exact reason why I usually insist on 1:1 sessions as opposed to group sessions is to ensure that what we are doing is right for the individual and not generic.

To me, "good running form" isn't a one size fits all blueprint. It's often marketed as such but in reality it's a highly individual thing. There is evidence coming together to build up a "textbook perfect", but we're not all robots or clones!

The one size fits all approach (Pose, Chi, etc...) works well for some, but results in injury in many! Particularly when talking about foot strike, for some it's just not appropriate to change to forefoot / midfoot when they are comfortable heel strikers. So why change it?! From my experience, there is so much more you can adjust in an athlete's running technique and see great results... without forcing them to change something as fundamental as foot strike! 

Just for the record: I'm a forefoot striker and in no way anti the forefoot/midfoot approach, it has worked a treat for me and some of my athletes... I just don't like injuring my athletes, so only use it where appropriate! 

The majority of athletes don't need to make wholesale changes to their running technique to see gains, I see it as a sum of small gains - rather than throwing a massive spanner in the works! 

Also, changing technique is not something to be done without associated strengthening exercises and a good look at the training load. Training load is indeed normally the main culprit for any overuse injury...

An overuse injury brought about through increased training load could however be viewed in this way: An injury which comes about because, while athlete x's body can cope with and hide certain dysfunctional biomechanics at a lesser training load, a threshold is passed as training load increases, and the dysfunctional biomechanics become an issue as they can no longer be successfully compensated for, and injury occurs.  


2010-11-08 8:37 AM
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Subject: RE: Good form running technique - similar pain issues as minimalist shoes
AdventureBear - 2010-11-05 2:57 PM
TriMike - 2010-11-05 8:18 AM I think my next area of analysis is with my orthoticist to review my running style against my custom orthotics and shoes.  Someone pointed out that the thick heel pad will made me adjust my foot strike more to be able to land mid to fore-foot and that's a valid comment to be looked at.

I see 2 potential problems with relying on the footwear, rather than body mechanics, to 'assist' you with your running form. A thicker heel pad may force to land more on your toes, sort of like high heels. But the other side of this coin is that by elevating the heel, you are preventing your foot from dorsiflexing after contact (preventing the heel from contacting the ground briefly after the footstrike). This dorsiflexion allows the achilles & calf to absorb more of the energy, which is given back to you in the form of elastic recoil for your next pushoff (like free speed). In addition, the more your foot can dorsiflex, the more the energy can be dissapated in the lower leg and less transmitted up to the knees & lower back. For me this is a major issue. When I run barefoot, zero back or knee pain. Put on shoes, and the elevated heel interferes with this aspect of my stride. The second issue is that landing on the forefoot is far less important than simply landing with your weight under the center of gravity. If you are already doing this well, then by all means continue to experiment with other foot strikes if you like. But landing under the center of gravity is probably the most important aspect of "good form" to try and achieve.


The thicker heel means you have to plantar flex all the more to achieve a midfoot or forefoot landing, and tends to shorten the achilles tendon and tighten the calf muscles. Also, by thickening the heel, you tend to land more on the heel due to that material being lower for a given amount of dorsiflexion (whatever that may be naturally for any given person).
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