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2010-11-15 10:25 AM

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Subject: Kick Time vs. Pull Time

Since I've been working for the past 2 months to improve/create my kick, I'm wondering how my kick time should compare to my swim or pull time?  Would be nice to see some examples of your 25 or 50 yard kick/pull times especially from good swimmers who have a good to great kick.



2010-11-15 11:35 AM
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Subject: RE: Kick Time vs. Pull Time
I've always believed, either correctly or incorrectly, that the kick didn't matter much in endurance events, and anything more than keeping your legs afloat and body position correct, is just a waste of efficiency.  (sprinters should ignore this advice)

Without flippers- kicking is a very inefficient method of propulsion for humans.  So, why put more energy into something that's inefficient at moving you forward?  Plus, you'll have plenty of time to work out your legs on the bike and the run.  That said- I generally throw in a set or two (250yd) of kicks, but really just for the cross training benefit.  It's a good hip exercise.  I try and kick hard enough so that my the last two laps, my legs feel like lead.  Then- on to other things.
2010-11-15 11:55 AM
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Subject: RE: Kick Time vs. Pull Time
GoFaster - 2010-11-15 11:25 AM

Since I've been working for the past 2 months to improve/create my kick, I'm wondering how my kick time should compare to my swim or pull time?  Would be nice to see some examples of your 25 or 50 yard kick/pull times especially from good swimmers who have a good to great kick.



Go to your local library and check out a book called Total Immersion.  Terry Laughlin(sp?), basically will tell you to throw out the flippers, kick board, and buoys.  It's all about learning how to properly balance your body and keep your kick in balance with your stroke and not kick to hard for endurance swims.
2010-11-15 12:18 PM
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Subject: RE: Kick Time vs. Pull Time
jflongo - 2010-11-15 11:55 AM
GoFaster - 2010-11-15 11:25 AM

Since I've been working for the past 2 months to improve/create my kick, I'm wondering how my kick time should compare to my swim or pull time?  Would be nice to see some examples of your 25 or 50 yard kick/pull times especially from good swimmers who have a good to great kick.



Go to your local library and check out a book called Total Immersion.  Terry Laughlin(sp?), basically will tell you to throw out the flippers, kick board, and buoys.  It's all about learning how to properly balance your body and keep your kick in balance with your stroke and not kick to hard for endurance swims.


Probably one of the reasons I don't follow TI strictly(I do have the book).  Things like flippers, kick boards, and Buoys have a place in a training program.  The issue is that people tend to use them too much.

I am now finding that my buoy time is slightly slower than my pure swim/kick times.  I don't do a lot of buoy work and am trying to improve my kick to make is useful during shorter races (eventually longer races also).

2010-11-15 12:20 PM
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Subject: RE: Kick Time vs. Pull Time
morey000 - 2010-11-15 11:35 AM I've always believed, either correctly or incorrectly, that the kick didn't matter much in endurance events, and anything more than keeping your legs afloat and body position correct, is just a waste of efficiency.  (sprinters should ignore this advice)


This is pretty broad.  Some really fast folks (i.e. guys like Neyegli at Swimsmooth and on Youtube) have a pretty good kick going the whole time.  I tend to kick more than others.

As far as kick times vs.  swim times, have a look at this thread and this thread.  That will give you some idea of what folks can do.   Some of those times (particularly ande) are stunning.  I have no idea how they achieve those times, as I run a ratio of .5 or so.  Maybe next practice I'll try a set with no kickboard and see if I'm faster that way.
2010-11-15 12:21 PM
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Subject: RE: Kick Time vs. Pull Time
GaryRM - 2010-11-15 1:18 PM
I am now finding that my buoy time is slightly slower than my pure swim/kick times.  I don't do a lot of buoy work and am trying to improve my kick to make is useful during shorter races (eventually longer races also).



This is what I'm after.  My pull time is better than my swim time, and I'm looking to develop a reasonable kick (along with other things) to get to the point where my swim is better than my pull.


2010-11-15 12:41 PM
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Subject: RE: Kick Time vs. Pull Time
I'm also trying to work on my kick.  But not so much to add significant propulsion...but to refine my technique to minimize drag.

I too had the problem where my pull was significantly faster than my swim.  It was mainly due to poor kicking form.  Not pointing my toes enough (or having the flexibility to do so), kicking with too much knee bend, and simply kicking at too wide an angle.  All things that likely created a lot of drag.
2010-11-15 12:52 PM
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Subject: RE: Kick Time vs. Pull Time
As I read TI (I'm not a coach and don't do all TI stuff) they do allow for using aids for learning purposes. Kind of like training wheels which allow kids to focus on pedaling and steering without falling. These aids can help focus on certain aspects of balance, propulsion and streamlining, however, like training wheels, they aren't needed for long.

I'm not against a swim kick, just practice it as part of your complete stroke. I just watch a bunch of people (me included at times) which focus on horsepower to overcome bad body position. The kick can get your legs up but wouldn't it be better to focus on moving forward rather than not sinking?
2010-11-15 1:09 PM
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Subject: RE: Kick Time vs. Pull Time
From a swimmer viewpoint

If you've got a decent kick, you're 50yd kick time might be about 1.5 times your 50yd swim time. If you cruise a :40 swim, you might kick at about :60. Swim a :30, maybe kick :45 or :50.

There's no hard & fast rule and there are many who can swim a :30 but have difficulty breaking :50 kicking. And the opposite is just as true.

As a beginner, the most important thing you're going to get from kick drills is pointing the toes and improving the flutter kick. What you don't want to have are scissor kicks and toes pointing to the bottom of the pool.
2010-11-15 1:24 PM
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Subject: RE: Kick Time vs. Pull Time
GoFaster - 2010-11-15 10:25 AM

Since I've been working for the past 2 months to improve/create my kick, I'm wondering how my kick time should compare to my swim or pull time?  Would be nice to see some examples of your 25 or 50 yard kick/pull times especially from good swimmers who have a good to great kick.



I'm planning on hitting the pool wednesday. I will find out and report back.

To the other posters: I've said it before (most people already know my take) but I think a good kick is critical. The more effective the kick, the less you have to use it. Not for propulsion, but for rotation and balance. I also think equipment is very helpful. The best in the world use the stuff daily, so I would hardly consider it training wheels.

TJ
2010-11-15 1:52 PM
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Subject: RE: Kick Time vs. Pull Time
Thanks all who have replied so far.  To clarify, I'm looking to add a 2 beat kick to my swim stroke.  For the past couple of years I've just dragged my legs along behind me.  Now I'm conciously looking to use my legs to improve balance, rotation, etc.  I don't expect any real propulsion, but I want the kick to be as effective as possible for what it is.


2010-11-15 3:14 PM
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Subject: RE: Kick Time vs. Pull Time
What TJ said. And I'll add my opinion (which may or may not be shared by him)

The kick can add propulsion to your swim, but primarily because it aids in core rotation. The power in your swimmign is drive from your core. A solid 2 beat kick helps to accelerate the core rotation which in turn creates a faster spearing of yoru front arm and assuming you have a good catch/anchor of the arm in the water, will help your body sail forward in the water. The kick is intimately timed with the body's rotation and stroke. If it's not, you are losing a lot of potential synergy between the arms & the legs.
2010-11-15 3:21 PM
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Subject: RE: Kick Time vs. Pull Time
AdventureBear - 2010-11-15 1:14 PM

What TJ said. And I'll add my opinion (which may or may not be shared by him)

The kick can add propulsion to your swim, but primarily because it aids in core rotation. The power in your swimmign is drive from your core. A solid 2 beat kick helps to accelerate the core rotation which in turn creates a faster spearing of yoru front arm and assuming you have a good catch/anchor of the arm in the water, will help your body sail forward in the water. The kick is intimately timed with the body's rotation and stroke. If it's not, you are losing a lot of potential synergy between the arms & the legs.


I really like this description of the purpose of the kick.

I'm just struggling because I don't see the connection between what I see and did with a kick board and the kick as you describe (which I really am trying to do). The kick that I see with a kick board has no body rotation and is focused on churning the water.

How do you break down the kick as you teach it?
2010-11-15 3:29 PM
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Subject: RE: Kick Time vs. Pull Time
cbrave - 2010-11-15 12:52 PM  I'm not against a swim kick, just practice it as part of your complete stroke. I just watch a bunch of people (me included at times) which focus on horsepower to overcome bad body position. The kick can get your legs up but wouldn't it be better to focus on moving forward rather than not sinking?


Swimming is not like biking.  You can get a way with exposing more frontal area on the bike and still be plenty fast.  In the pool, though, the density of water massively penalizes form deficiencies.  Developing technique to reduce your effective frontal area is critical to getting fast.  Horsepower means nothing, really, until you are bloody fast already.

Swimming is like golf - it is technique intensive.
2010-11-15 3:53 PM
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Subject: RE: Kick Time vs. Pull Time
It's not that training tools aren't useless, but that they're misused. I can't tell you how many times I see dudes with a bunch of gadgets and all they do is swim laps. I never see them using using those tools to work on technique or stroke by isolating elements and doing technique drills. I think the idea they have is, "If I use said gadget to swim laps it will automatically improve my technique." 

Do you NEED pull buoys, paddles, fins, etc. in order to improve your swimming? No. Absolutely not. But they can help quite a bit if used correctly.  
2010-11-15 5:07 PM
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Subject: RE: Kick Time vs. Pull Time
tjfry - 2010-11-15 11:24 AM
GoFaster - 2010-11-15 10:25 AM

Since I've been working for the past 2 months to improve/create my kick, I'm wondering how my kick time should compare to my swim or pull time?  Would be nice to see some examples of your 25 or 50 yard kick/pull times especially from good swimmers who have a good to great kick.



I'm planning on hitting the pool wednesday. I will find out and report back.

To the other posters: I've said it before (most people already know my take) but I think a good kick is critical. The more effective the kick, the less you have to use it. Not for propulsion, but for rotation and balance. I also think equipment is very helpful. The best in the world use the stuff daily, so I would hardly consider it training wheels.

TJ


Personally, I think the above is the key takeaway from what I've seen you post in the past, TJ.  I think it's not incorrect to say that a large percentage of kick drills that triathletes are likely to be exposed to are going to drive them towards a kind of assumption of a six-beat kick as integral to freestyle swimming, whereas I think you've done a better job than anyone else on this forum of demonstrating a two-beat kick (properly executed) as a viable alternative.  Personally (and I'm biased because I much prefer a two-beat kick in my swimming), I think it's an alternative that more triathletes ought to explore...and a big reason for that is that it really drives home the role of the kick in providing leverage to support proper rotation, rather than propulsion.


2010-11-15 6:42 PM
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Subject: RE: Kick Time vs. Pull Time

For what it's worth, I GAVE UP ON THE KICK BOARD - I HATE IT!  Okay. Okay.  I know all the swimming studs will tell me how important the kick board is.  But the truth is, for me at least, my swim is just average and that's about all it is going to be - and I am okay with that.  And since I don't dig the pool anyway, why make it worse by doing something I dislike and that really isn't going to help me a great deal anyway?  On the other hand, I love doing pulls!  For me (and only for me), it is less about the science and more about making my swim workouts more enjoyable and something to look forward to.  So I sank my kick board.  I will spend more time doing something I enjoy in the pool, like pulls, and worry more about taking time off my bike and run times.  Good luck!

2010-11-15 7:24 PM
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Subject: RE: Kick Time vs. Pull Time

Like many of you, I hate the kick board and love the pull bouys.  I use the bouy a lot in the pool except when I am doing drills and need the leg propulsion. But when I get outdoors for open water swims, I revert to the two phase kick and no pull bouy.  I've read a few articles by triathletes who do most of their swims with buoys and seem to be right in the lead group. 

When I use to swim, there was a lot of focus on a strong kick and I was a faster swimmer.   But I was only going 100 200 or 400 meters.  Coaches would spend a lot of time building leg strength and technique...and it paid off.  Going 2000 or 4000 m is a very different race and I think you can hold a really strong pace with a moderately decent kick if you have really worked on your arm catch, recovery and body position.

And let's face it, we need some equipment, right. Even if it's only a fancy piece of foam.

2010-11-15 8:24 PM
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Subject: RE: Kick Time vs. Pull Time
tophermcdougall - 2010-11-15 3:53 PM
Do you NEED pull buoys, paddles, fins, etc. in order to improve your swimming? No. Absolutely not. But they can help quite a bit if used correctly.  


Exactly!
2010-11-16 11:16 AM
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Subject: RE: Kick Time vs. Pull Time
So for those of us incorporating a 2-beat kick as described above to drive body rotation (and awesomely demonstrated in TJ's video), how should we go about practicing?  Should we be using a kickboard or some specific drill that doesn't involve the kickboard?  If using a kickboard, should we be kicking fast or more slowly like we would be doing in the 2-beat rhythm of our normal stroke?  Typically I've just been doing some lengths of my normal stroke with mindful attention on my kick, but I've been thinking that there's probably something more specific that would accelerate improvements to both my general kicking form (which is awful, since I don't have a swimming background) and to the integration of it with the rest of the stroke.  Apologies if this has been covered in another thread (feel free to just link it in that case), but I don't remember seeing it in recent threads (outside of references to increasing ankle flexibility).  Thanks in advance to all the swimming gurus here Smile
2010-11-16 11:38 AM
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Subject: RE: Kick Time vs. Pull Time
So to actually answer the question you asked: I am what I would consider to be a moderately strong kicker. When in shape, I can repeat 100s swim at around 1:07-1:10 on :10 rest per 100. I can kick between 1:40-1:45 for 100s w/:10 rest. That puts me at about the 1.5 ratio that the previous poster mentioned. FWIW I use a 2-beat when going longer distances (like 500+).

While I would not necessarily hold this ratio up as some sort of golden mean type goal that will lead you inexorably to a state of grace, it is probably an indication of kick proficiency. A proficient kick will result in propulsion BECAUSE of it's role in helping the body create leverage - as many of the posters have correctly identified. Your kick frequency when doing a 2-beat WILL be lower than when you are cruising along at your 1.5 ratio with a kick board. However, the snap of the feet at the downbeat of each individual kick may NOT be substantially different - there just may be either a pause, or some changes in foot speed during a 2-beat swim that allows you to synch it with your arms.

r.b.


2010-11-16 11:48 AM
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Subject: RE: Kick Time vs. Pull Time
I will say that I am an advocate of the 2-beat kick. I am also an advocate of the 4 and 6-beat. I don't categorically endorse the 2-beat, even for triathletes, because people simply have different optimal styles. That said, I have developed a program that can lead to a high level of proficiency in 2-beat kicking (as well as 4 and 6). I taught myself a 2-beat because I wanted to see if I could, and I wanted to be able to teach others to do it as well. I do use it for distance racing, but when I sprint it is all about the 6-beat, and there are instances in the open water when I rely heavily on a 4-6 beat kick. When developing rhythm, I would encourage everyone to be open-minded about their end-goal - even thought the 2-beat has been denigrated by much of the swimming world, perhaps that is overkill. Anyhow, on to your question:

The short answer to how - explore a variety of rhythms, you can actually improve your ability to do a 2-beat kick by doing a 6-beat kick, and a 4-beat kick, and mixing up pulling and swimming. You can also develop it by using drills such as the "Statue of Liberty" (see week 1 of our program for video of SoL - http://www.findingfreestyle.com/project-definition/week-1),since you arms stop and start while you maintain a constant kick - this forces you to become better at timing your kick and your pull. Other things that challenge your rhythmic ability will help too.

The long answer (12 weeks long) - sign up for our online course - Finding Freestyle, as it is the only system I know of that actually works specifically towards enhancing your ability to rhythmically integrate kicking and pulling. But if you are a gifted physical auto-didact, just follow the short answer.

regards,
r.b.
2010-11-16 11:50 AM
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Subject: RE: Kick Time vs. Pull Time
cbrave - 2010-11-15 2:21 PM

AdventureBear - 2010-11-15 1:14 PM

What TJ said. And I'll add my opinion (which may or may not be shared by him)

The kick can add propulsion to your swim, but primarily because it aids in core rotation. The power in your swimmign is drive from your core. A solid 2 beat kick helps to accelerate the core rotation which in turn creates a faster spearing of yoru front arm and assuming you have a good catch/anchor of the arm in the water, will help your body sail forward in the water. The kick is intimately timed with the body's rotation and stroke. If it's not, you are losing a lot of potential synergy between the arms & the legs.


I really like this description of the purpose of the kick.

I'm just struggling because I don't see the connection between what I see and did with a kick board and the kick as you describe (which I really am trying to do). The kick that I see with a kick board has no body rotation and is focused on churning the water.

How do you break down the kick as you teach it?


cbrave & others, your comment re struggling b/c you don't see the connection between kickboard & kick as I described is excactly why I don't use kickboards (one of a few reasons).

As far as teaching it, words are certainly difficult, but here are some ideas.

Feel the rotation that kick provides in a vertical position first: go to the deep end and do some light vertical kicking. You can tuck a pull buoy or kickboard under each armpit to help you float. Remain verticel (not leaning forward), and kick forward (down if you were swimming) from one leg. You should feel a rotational force from this forward kick that rotates your body in the opposite direction.

i.e. if you kick forward (in vertical position) with your right leg, your body will rotate to your right in a clockwise rotation.

The kick is firm but fluid, imagine there are streamers coming off the end of your toes. A fluid motion that intiates in the gluts with a gentle retraction of the leg...almost like it's floating backwards a bit, a forceful beat foward with the quad, a flexible knee and ankle that follow the movement.

Practice this in deep water with each leg, feeling the rotation that a kick with either leg will cause. Kick once then stop and become a "pencil" in the water and see how many revolutions you can get your body to make with a single kick.

I gotta run to lunch, but visualize this for starters and maybe hop itn eh pool this afternoon & try it. More later. If I'm lukcy, some videos tonight.
2010-11-16 12:49 PM
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Subject: RE: Kick Time vs. Pull Time
MUSKOKAFIVEOH - 2010-11-15 7:24 PM

Like many of you, I hate the kick board and love the pull bouys.  



Many folks do.  Done right the kick drills hurt a heck of a lot more than pull bouy work (more than paddle work, too).  In my experience, anyway.  Personally, I tend to do kick drills and paddle work.  Never really saw a purpose to the pull bouy.  Just me, though.

I have pool work on tap for this afternoon and will duly flog myself with some streamline kick drills and see what kind of ratio I can generate.

Edited by sand101 2010-11-16 12:57 PM
2010-11-16 2:23 PM
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Subject: RE: Kick Time vs. Pull Time
For me, a pull buoy makes it easier to focus on developing my pull. Since I'm afloat and not worrying about my kick to keep propulsion, I can work on arm positioning and rotation. But I hardly use it now. I can do the same drills without it, but it does make it easier to focus. 
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