General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Training With Power Rss Feed  
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2010-11-30 8:13 PM

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Subject: Training With Power

I think that we have already had a thread or two on here discussing this, but with Brent asking about Power Taps and Karen expressing her confusion about the whole thing I thought it might be good to put out some basic information regarding training and more importantly RACING with power data.

First of all what is "power"?

Power is defined as either work (expressed in joules)/time (seconds) or as more applicable to cycling Power=Torque x Angular Velocity. Both are measured in watts or wattage (interchangeable terms).

How is Power measured?

Power is derived from measuring the torque on strain gagues somewhere on the drivetrain of the bike.

Each product measures torque at a different spot in the drive train:

SRM-The SRM is considered the "gold standard" when it comes to power measuring devices. Torque is measured through the strain gauges located in the crank arms, which logically is the most accurate place. SRM's are not cheap with the base model running around ~$3000-4000.

Power Tap-Power Tap by Saris is probably the most popular of the power measuring devices. The power tap hub is laced into a wheel (either one you already have or you can buy the whole thing) and has strain gagues in the rear hub that measure torque at that point. As a general rule there is ~3-5% difference between an SRM and PT reading but that is negligible. The great thing about a Power Tap is it's portability between bikes (if you ride a road and tri bike) and ease of use. The drawback is you either have to train on your race wheel or race on your training wheel (or buy a race wheel with a PT).

Quarq Cinco-Quarq is the new kid on the block when it comes to power measuring devices. Quarq replaces the spyder on the crank so it can be retro fitted to just about any existing crankset. The drawbacks are that it is also quite expensive (I don't know a firm $$ amount) and from what I have heard the data is hard to interpret as well.

Ergomo-This device replaces the bottom bracket on your bike and measures torque there. The caveat is that it only measures on the drive side so you are only really getting 50% of the data produced. The company that produces these went bankrupt a few years ago but I have heard that someone else has picked them up and will offer US distributorship in the future. New these cost about $1500 but that was 5-6 years ago.

Ibike-I was a beta tester for this device a few years back and for what it does it isn't a bad option for the budget conscious. The ibike itself doesn't measure torque or power directly, but rather through measureing a series of opposing forces calculates the resistance and then derives the power needed to over come those forces (Newton's third law of physics-for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction). Putting it up against my Power Tap the numbers were fairly close until you get to the higer wattage outputs (>400 watts). However the margin of error was consistant so it can be used as an accurate training tool. The drawbacks to this device are the fact that it uses an air port in the front (similar to the pitot static system in an airplane) so it has to have "clean air" to work. If you are riding a tri bike it has to be positioned below the aerobars and out of the slipstream of the hands in order to be accurate. For a road bike you can mount it on the stem or handlebars with no issues.  New these run ~$700.

Garmin-Garmin just purchased a company (the name escapes me at the moment) that has a power measureing device that goes in the spindle of the pedal. I have heard that they are planning to come to market with this sometime in 2011 so stay tuned.

 

Years ago Heart Rate monitors were big and expensive and pretty much only pro's and elite athletes used them. Today you can buy one at Walmart. Soon power will be the same way as new products and new companies enter the market place and force the price down and quality up.

That is the basics of power and power measureing devices, if you have any further questions you can ask here and I will answer or you can PM me.



2010-11-30 9:18 PM
in reply to: #3231360

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Subject: RE: Training With Power
Thanks for the post Brett.  Very good info and confirms (at least for me), that a Power Tap still seems like the way to go.  Some day...

Is the data hard to interpret?

Would there still be a benefit to use it just for training, but not racing?  Training on a racing wheel or racing on a training wheel does not appeal to me.
2010-12-01 10:44 AM
in reply to: #3231360

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Subject: RE: Training With Power

The data from any of the power measuring devices is not hard to understand in and of itself. What is difficult is interpreting the data and using it as a tool to make yourself better. Pick up a copy of Training and Racing With A Power Meter by Andrew Coggan and Huter Allen and it will make alot more sense. Here is where a coach that is educated in power can be worth his or her weight in gold.

As far as training with power and not racing with it goes, you want to train how your race (and vice versa) so it doesn't make a lot of sense to spend a lot of time training with power only to have your most important metric gone on race day. You can get a power tap built into a sturdy aero wheel that you can use for both and not really lose anything. In a couple of years you will be seeing race wheels on Ebay and Craigslist with power taps that you can upgrade to if you so choose.

2010-12-01 11:53 PM
in reply to: #3232141

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Subject: RE: Training With Power
Hi all  - new to the group.
I purchased a Quarq Cinqo about a month ago, I think it cost me about 1500 bucks. While I do not have anything to compare it to, After reading Coggan's book from cover to cover, I have found it very easy to make sense of the data recorded. It seems that the difficulty in interpreting the data from any PM would lie with the head unit and/or the application that you use to graph the info. I use a garmin 500 (an 800 should arrive any day!) and training peaks. The thing that sold me on the Quarq was that I already have several sets of wheels that I use, and I wanted to be able to use the PM on multiple bikes. I have found the Quarq to be really easy to swap with a torque wrench and a crank socket, so long as your bikes have the same bottom bracket. So far I am mostly just watching the numbers jump around, as I am on the back end of a base phase. I have my last long ride of the fall this weekend, then I will do my PM tests the following week as I begin my next LT training phase. At that time I should be able to figure out if I have any shortcomings to my setup. If I do, I will post a follow up.
2010-12-02 2:25 PM
in reply to: #3231360

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Subject: RE: Training With Power
Through a steady diet of intervals of varying duration and intensity with rest intervals of varying duration, Shanks took my ftp up 10%  (312 to 342) this year and my short and long course bike paces went up massively too. I felt strong as bull. He did that with lots of one hour-ish workouts that were increasingly challenging and based on prior weeks results. I got great bang for the buck and the time demands were not bad, it felt rewarding to see real results on trainingpeaks and poweragent software for tracking wattage, and it never was boring.

However, one drawback for me is that it proved to be really strange to have so much in the way of power that I wanted to break it out all the time on race day and my run times dropped. I rectified that in IMFL to a certain degree but it took most of the season to learn to harness the bike. You also have to figure personality in there too. Regardless, I, without hesitation agree that 1. power training is well worth the cost if you love the sport and 2. you need some guidance to maximize progress.

The first year was pretty much learning what all the data meant. The second year was much more focused. I still have loads to look forward to on year 3 with power. The data in tp.com is really awesome and could help with managing training stress, understanding peaking for races, looking at how well you manage a course that has hills or wind or both, etc.

At first I had a training wheel with a PT and a racing wheel with a PT. I am selling the training wheel this year as I think it redundant and a bit of a unnecessary/excessive expense. However, the training wheel with the disc cover would probably be the cheapest and most effective way to go as brown dog has stated.
2010-12-02 3:44 PM
in reply to: #3234216

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Subject: RE: Training With Power

phatknot - 2010-12-02 3:25 PM However, one drawback for me is that it proved to be really strange to have so much in the way of power that I wanted to break it out all the time on race day and my run times dropped.

It must be tough to be so strong. 

 

Your bike power increases are one of the big reasons I'm thinking about a power meter.  I just don't know if I want to do the actual work part of getting stronger on the bike.



2010-12-02 4:10 PM
in reply to: #3234216

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Subject: RE: Training With Power
phatknot - 2010-12-02 3:25 PM Through a steady diet of intervals of varying duration and intensity with rest intervals of varying duration, Shanks took my ftp up 10%  (312 to 342) this year and my short and long course bike paces went up massively too.


Hey - thanks for sharing that phatknot - I purchased my PM at the urging of my coach, who has put together a regimen that hopefully will raise my ftp by at least 20 watts by the end of July (IMLP). Glad to know that is possible, even if it might take a little work. I too only learned the lesson of laying back a bit on the bike after 18 years of racing. I can't tell you how many times in the past I complained about having a "great bike" but I "faded on the run." For the past couple of years my new measure of a "good bike" is to have a great run. I just wished I learned earlier this was a triathon, rather than a bike race sandwiched in between a warm-up swim and a cool-down run.
2010-12-02 5:33 PM
in reply to: #3234394

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Subject: RE: Training With Power
its not bad as it sounds as it builds on your previous efforts so you basically are trying to top yourself little by little week by week. some coaches have you test alot though and those tests are nasty. i nearly passed out on one. thankfully my face hit my aerodrink straw and i snapped out of it quick.

i think i got a power training plan from a cyclist friend emailed to me that i never used but that he used to bring his power way up. pm me with your emails if you are interested in it. i think it was a 12 week program.

i think it should also be mentioned that you can train via power to a degree in swimming and running. there are measurements for it on training peaks too now and they can be accessed with some self testing too.

Edited by phatknot 2010-12-02 5:36 PM
2010-12-02 6:14 PM
in reply to: #3231360

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Subject: RE: Training With Power

swimming based on power measurement?  I gotta research that one...

2010-12-03 11:44 AM
in reply to: #3231360

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Subject: RE: Training With Power

There are several products/methods coming down the pipeline that if they work are going to revolutionize how we train and track our training metrics.

Joe Friel was talking about a new instrument that can be placed in shoes to measure the force (and by extension "power") that is produced while running. I have also heard of a device that derives power from a swim stroke as well.

Some of these things are pretty far out and may never see the light of day, but others are almost ready to be rolled out very soon.

If you can quantify every training stimulus in absolute numbers then will remove a lot of the guesswork when it comes to figuring out optimal training load and recovery for an athlete.

2010-12-03 12:00 PM
in reply to: #3234630

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Subject: RE: Training With Power
thecaptin - 2010-12-02 7:14 PM

swimming based on power measurement?  I gotta research that one...



I too was excited by phatknot's comments about swimming with power, so I immediately went to the pool to try it out. I found swimming in my cycling shoes very difficult at first, but I think over time it will at least save me a few seconds in T-1. 

In all seriousness, even after 20 years of OWS, I could still use some help in proper pacing, particularly on longer swims. It will be interesting to see what kind of technology comes down the pipe over the next few years. Although as I write this, it makes me realize how nice and free OWS really is, and maybe why I enjoy it so much - it is the one place where I am not strapped up and jacked in to  global positioning system satellites and recording very second of HR, power, etc. With that thought I am heading out for a swim before it is too late!


2010-12-03 2:07 PM
in reply to: #3235602

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Subject: RE: Training With Power
well you are are better man than me. i stopped my ows on the last day of october. last year i made it to nov 14. i need to be more brave like you.

the swimming power metric i was talking about is not one that can be measured during the swim but after the swim. it is fashioned from the training stress score.  here is the link:

http://www.peaksware.com/articles/triathlon/calculating-swimming-tss-score.aspx

however, the more you do with it the better you can get at predicting it based on the workout. ultimately though, if brett and others he cited are right, we could all be much more dialed in in terms of energy output and resulting paces given the courses for the various tri distances. this could take alot of the mystery out of things for us all. pair that with advances in nutrition and what has been a trial and error thing could be much more refined.
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