General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Who does flip turns and why? Rss Feed  
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2011-06-30 10:53 AM
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Subject: RE: Who does flip turns and why?
I do flip turns, because it better mimics (in terms of swimming distance/exertion) open water swims.  During an open water swim, you don't get to stop and get an, albeit brief, "break" by simply grabbing the wall, getting to take a deep breath of air and pushing off again- you have to swim continously the entire distance.  For example, let's say you're swimming a 500 yard set- that's 20 laps- and it takes about 1.5 to 2 seconds to grab the wall, turn yourself around and push off again, over the course of a set you're getting about 28.5 to 38 seconds of "rest" over the set.  Flip turns are definetly harder as a beginner- and they will take a bit more exertion at first, but it gets easier the more you practice. 


2011-06-30 10:58 AM
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Subject: RE: Who does flip turns and why?
TriAya - 2011-06-30 11:41 AM

powerman - 2011-07-01 12:25 AM I will say this for others that don't do flips... It did bother me that for my open turns, I had no "mechanics" or routine at all. I mean to do something well, you should do it with purpose. (seems to me) It sort of bothered me that there was no rhyme or reason when I got to the wall. Turn this way or that, look over there, legs maybe tucked. I sort of though I should do them better or at least have a "method". So I might as well practice the flip method.

You bring up a really good point. A snappy open turn takes technique and practice (like it used to in old backstroke rules ... now I'm really dating myself). One might as well just learn a flip turn, then.

x3.

A good open turn does not give you a chance to catch your breath.  It's less than a second slower than a decent flip turn.  Look at a breast stroke or butterfly turn, and you'll get an idea of what it should look like.

Yanti - I'm dating myself too, because I swam backstroke back in the days of neon clothing.  A good backstroke turn under those rules was really an amazing thing to see, and made a flip turn seem simple in comparison.

2011-06-30 10:58 AM
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Subject: RE: Who does flip turns and why?
Really if open turns or worse, not even tuching the wall and turning around like a turtle, was a better way to train for OWS you would see the pro's doing. They don't, they do flip turns.

I also swim a little back and breatstoke on my cood downs. Gasp!

Edited by bryancd 2011-06-30 10:59 AM
2011-06-30 11:15 AM
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Subject: RE: Who does flip turns and why?

bryancd - 2011-06-30 8:20 AM
FELTGood - 2011-06-30 7:04 AM ..lets not overstate the importance of the flip turn, is it a skill yes, whether it helps in tri training is debatable
Sorry to pick apart your post, but in general I always find this thinking odd. How is "tri training" different from swim training, bike training, or run training? It's not, we don't do anything special as triathletes besides bricks and transitions. But triathletes always seem to want to make our training unique and often try and justify not doing certain types of training protocols becasue we somehow convince ourselves we don't need to..because we are triathletes! It's very funny. "Well, I'm a TRIATHLETE, so I should just take out all the lane lines and swim circles in the pool non-stop to simulate OWS!"

Gotta respectfully disagree... at least coming from a MOP age grouper.

It's all about how to spend your training time wisely. If you have 10 hours a week to use purely for swimming, biking, or running, then you should absolutely do every training variation for that single sport. When you have to spread that across all three sports, you have to decide what to exclude.

What you exclude is up for debate, but it's a reality that triathlon is a sport all on its own.

Swim is only freestyle and oriented specifically for long distance in open water. I'm not going to spend time on butterfly, backstroke, and breaststroke.

Biking is a non-drafting TT. I'm not worried about learning to ride in a paceline.

Running is long(ish) distance on tired legs. I'm more concerned with staying injury free and having a "strong" finish rather than a "fast" finish.

2011-06-30 11:22 AM
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Subject: RE: Who does flip turns and why?
Aspiring - 2011-07-01 1:15 AM

bryancd - 2011-06-30 8:20 AM
FELTGood - 2011-06-30 7:04 AM ..lets not overstate the importance of the flip turn, is it a skill yes, whether it helps in tri training is debatable
Sorry to pick apart your post, but in general I always find this thinking odd. How is "tri training" different from swim training, bike training, or run training? It's not, we don't do anything special as triathletes besides bricks and transitions. But triathletes always seem to want to make our training unique and often try and justify not doing certain types of training protocols becasue we somehow convince ourselves we don't need to..because we are triathletes! It's very funny. "Well, I'm a TRIATHLETE, so I should just take out all the lane lines and swim circles in the pool non-stop to simulate OWS!"

Gotta respectfully disagree... at least coming from a MOP age grouper.

It's all about how to spend your training time wisely. If you have 10 hours a week to use purely for swimming, biking, or running, then you should absolutely do every training variation for that single sport. When you have to spread that across all three sports, you have to decide what to exclude.

What you exclude is up for debate, but it's a reality that triathlon is a sport all on its own.

Swim is only freestyle and oriented specifically for long distance in open water. I'm not going to spend time on butterfly, backstroke, and breaststroke.

Biking is a non-drafting TT. I'm not worried about learning to ride in a paceline.

Running is long(ish) distance on tired legs. I'm more concerned with staying injury free and having a "strong" finish rather than a "fast" finish.

I'm going to leave the biking and running comments and stick to the swimming.

If training in a pool, you've got to turn at the wall.

Which turn ultimately benefits your swim performance in a triathlon more--a flip turn or an open turn?

Taking it back one degree--which turn ultimately makes your swim-in-a-pool training more efficient?

The way I see it, there are many claims for flip turns and very few for open.

2011-06-30 11:22 AM
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Subject: RE: Who does flip turns and why?
6226chels - 2011-06-30 10:02 AM

i never swam competitivly , its not going to help my ows .

And, you'd be 100% wrong.  You can talk yourself out of them as much as you want but they will improve your swimming, period, end of story. 



2011-06-30 11:23 AM
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Subject: RE: Who does flip turns and why?
TriAya - 2011-06-30 11:22 AM

I'm going to leave the biking and running comments and stick to the swimming.

If training in a pool, you've got to turn at the wall.

Which turn ultimately benefits your swim performance in a triathlon more--a flip turn or an open turn?

Taking it back one degree--which turn ultimately makes your swim-in-a-pool training more efficient?

The way I see it, there are many claims for flip turns and very few for open.

I agree about flip turns. I disagree that everyone can/should train the SAME as a person doing the single sport.

ETA: In fact, I find that flip turns help because open turns allow you to "stop" which would not occur in open water. However, the more time I spend swimming in choppy Texas lakes, I found that I have to switch from a long, smooth stroke to a shorter, more powerful stroke. I also rotate more to breathe in a lake than in a pool.



Edited by Aspiring 2011-06-30 11:28 AM
2011-06-30 11:30 AM
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Subject: RE: Who does flip turns and why?
So  I want to learn flip turns but the pool at the gym is only 3ft deep...I'm afraid i'll bounce my head on the pool floor trying...what should I do?
2011-06-30 11:30 AM
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Subject: RE: Who does flip turns and why?
You are welcome to disagree, although that won't make you correct.

Swimming other strokes can help you be a better swimmer.
Riding in a pace line can help develop bike hnadleing skills as well as good interval work which can make you a better cyclist.
Running...well I'm not sure what your point is here.

Now, I do agree that time management might preclude someone from doing these and other things, and that's fine, however it does not change the fact that if they could manage it, training the way I suggest would be better.
2011-06-30 11:31 AM
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Subject: RE: Who does flip turns and why?
lamj77 - 2011-06-30 10:30 AM

So  I want to learn flip turns but the pool at the gym is only 3ft deep...I'm afraid i'll bounce my head on the pool floor trying...what should I do?


I can do a flip turn in a puddle.
2011-06-30 11:31 AM
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Subject: RE: Who does flip turns and why?

Mrschach - 2011-06-30 7:26 AM I do them because I can. Doing them or not isn't going to help me in OWS, at least for me. I grew up swimming competitively so it is just natural for me.

Same here.  It's more natural for me to do flip turns when I swim in a pool.



2011-06-30 11:32 AM
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Subject: RE: Who does flip turns and why?
tribomber - 2011-06-30 8:14 AM
jeffw85 - 2011-06-30 8:04 AM

I just started learning flip turns about two weeks ago.  After doing open turns at the pool for the last two years I figured it was time.  So as a flip turn "newbie" here is my immediate observation.  It definitely makes my swim sessions tougher.  No more nice big lung-fulls of air at the wall.  Those three seconds or so resurfacing from the glide can seem like an eternity

But mostly.....I think it will help me learn to live out of my "comfort zone" whereas aerobic capacity is concerned.

 

^^^ This is the best reason to work on flip turns - to put you into a bit of oxygen debt and stress your aerobic system.  I would add that it's not just a newbie thing...as an experienced swimmer, a flip turn puts me into far more oxygen debt than an open turn.

Also... Swimmers are told to not breath on the first stroke coming off the wall.

2011-06-30 11:34 AM
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Subject: RE: Who does flip turns and why?

bryancd - 2011-06-30 1:31 PM
lamj77 - 2011-06-30 10:30 AM So  I want to learn flip turns but the pool at the gym is only 3ft deep...I'm afraid i'll bounce my head on the pool floor trying...what should I do?
I can do a flip turn in a puddle.

Yeah, 3 feet is plenty deep enough.

2011-06-30 11:37 AM
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Subject: RE: Who does flip turns and why?

lamj77 - 2011-07-01 1:30 AM So  I want to learn flip turns but the pool at the gym is only 3ft deep...I'm afraid i'll bounce my head on the pool floor trying...what should I do?

If at all possible, get someone to teach you/help you, but if not ... take it slow at first. You're not aiming your head at the bottom of the pool. It's actually less of a somersault than ... hm, not sure how to put it into words. There are threads and BT articles with video that explain quite well how to learn to do a flip turn, and yes--3 ft. is plenty.

2011-06-30 11:39 AM
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Subject: RE: Who does flip turns and why?
Ok thanks all...I'll give it shot because I would agree that the extra breathe I get from stopping at the wall is something I wouldn't get in an OWS and would like the flow of doing a flip turn more.Laughing
2011-06-30 11:40 AM
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Subject: RE: Who does flip turns and why?

Wait, we run around in spandex shorts and sausage-casing tops, half the time covered in advertising, and you are worried about looking like a dork?

That made me laugh out loud. 

To me it's simple - if your goal is to become a better overall swimmer, do flip turns.  I think there are lots of things we do during training (in all 3 disciplines) that may not be exactly what we do during a race. 



Edited by mdalsey 2011-06-30 11:41 AM


2011-06-30 11:42 AM
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Subject: RE: Who does flip turns and why?

bryancd - 2011-06-30 11:30 AM You are welcome to disagree, although that won't make you correct. Swimming other strokes can help you be a better swimmer. Riding in a pace line can help develop bike hnadleing skills as well as good interval work which can make you a better cyclist. Running...well I'm not sure what your point is here. Now, I do agree that time management might preclude someone from doing these and other things, and that's fine, however it does not change the fact that if they could manage it, training the way I suggest would be better.

Can't argue with that, but it's the difference between a scientist and an engineer. To a scientist, nothing is impossible. To an engineer, some things are so improbable that you might as well call it impossible. I'm an engineer.

Point is, most people don't have the time to train in the pure sport for all three sports. What I'd like you hear from people like you, e.g. people that are respected on this board and have been successful in the sport, are which corners should definitely not be cut, which can you be lax on, and which can you dismiss without negatively affecting your performance. Simply saying that we should all chase perfection isn't as useful.

2011-06-30 11:48 AM
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Subject: RE: Who does flip turns and why?
That's a good question, and in reality, doing flip turns, learning other strokes, riding in a pace line, all the things you mentioned, really are the minutiae which when push comes to shove can be shoved. What I take exception to is being dismissive to specific kinds of training under the false pretense that we don't "need" to do it as opposed to we don't have "time" to do it.

I'm not sure I can answer your question more specifically but if you gave me some for examples, I could opine as to their overall utility and potential value at least in my experience as I have tried a lot of different things in my training, some worked and some didn't.
2011-06-30 11:58 AM
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Subject: RE: Who does flip turns and why?
I do them because I can (competitive swimming background), because it would cause a traffic jam in my lane at master's swimming if I didn't, and because it removes the temptation to hang onto the wall for a few seconds and catch my breath on a hard swim! I recall it was a bit of a struggle to learn them as a kid, but I have taught them to other adults and they have mastered the basics in as little as 30 minutes. I'm extremely clumsy--if I can learn to flip, anyone can! 
2011-06-30 12:34 PM
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Subject: RE: Who does flip turns and why?
I am trying to work on flip turns...I used to do them regularly, but I don't have adnoids, and flipping makes a large amount of water get trapped in my sinuses that then causes a constant trickle down my throat...I get it from just having my face in the water, but flipping makes it much worse.  I am going to try a nose plug tonight when I go though, even if I do look stupid, because it would be great if it helps.  If I don't flip though, I have a specific open turn that I do, similar to what you use when swimming breaststroke...there is very little stopping...but it definitely is easier to breathe.
2011-06-30 12:39 PM
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Subject: RE: Who does flip turns and why?
I dont do flip turns cause I may drop my gun!


2011-06-30 12:42 PM
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Subject: RE: Who does flip turns and why?
TriAya - 2011-06-30 11:37 AM

lamj77 - 2011-07-01 1:30 AM So  I want to learn flip turns but the pool at the gym is only 3ft deep...I'm afraid i'll bounce my head on the pool floor trying...what should I do?

If at all possible, get someone to teach you/help you, but if not ... take it slow at first. You're not aiming your head at the bottom of the pool. It's actually less of a somersault than ... hm, not sure how to put it into words. There are threads and BT articles with video that explain quite well how to learn to do a flip turn, and yes--3 ft. is plenty.



Yep.  I'm 6'3" and I did flip turns in 2.5 ft of water at an indoor tri in January.  Now, I had to slightly adjust my push off cause I bounced off the bottom the first few times I did it, but it is totally doable. 
2011-06-30 12:48 PM
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Subject: RE: Who does flip turns and why?
crowny2 - 2011-06-30 10:42 AM
TriAya - 2011-06-30 11:37 AM

lamj77 - 2011-07-01 1:30 AM So  I want to learn flip turns but the pool at the gym is only 3ft deep...I'm afraid i'll bounce my head on the pool floor trying...what should I do?

If at all possible, get someone to teach you/help you, but if not ... take it slow at first. You're not aiming your head at the bottom of the pool. It's actually less of a somersault than ... hm, not sure how to put it into words. There are threads and BT articles with video that explain quite well how to learn to do a flip turn, and yes--3 ft. is plenty.



Yep.  I'm 6'3" and I did flip turns in 2.5 ft of water at an indoor tri in January.  Now, I had to slightly adjust my push off cause I bounced off the bottom the first few times I did it, but it is totally doable. 

When I was trying to learn them on my own I use to hit the bottom all the time (note 3ft.).  What helped me was to actually slow down.  I was always freaking about wanting air asap that I would rush through it.  So, slow down.  Another thing is to watch your feet.  I don't do it anymore but when I was first learning I would watch my feet and I would actually kind of pause while flipped over and upside down and I would reposition myself if necessary so that my feet were properly placed on the wall and I could then push off. 

2011-06-30 12:59 PM
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Subject: RE: Who does flip turns and why?
axteraa - 2011-06-30 12:34 PM

bryancd - 2011-06-30 1:31 PM
lamj77 - 2011-06-30 10:30 AM So  I want to learn flip turns but the pool at the gym is only 3ft deep...I'm afraid i'll bounce my head on the pool floor trying...what should I do?
I can do a flip turn in a puddle.

Yeah, 3 feet is plenty deep enough.

 

My pool I swim in is only 3'6"  and I'm never close to hitting the bottom.

2011-06-30 1:08 PM
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Subject: RE: Who does flip turns and why?
bzgl40 - 2011-06-30 12:48 PM
crowny2 - 2011-06-30 10:42 AM
TriAya - 2011-06-30 11:37 AM

lamj77 - 2011-07-01 1:30 AM So  I want to learn flip turns but the pool at the gym is only 3ft deep...I'm afraid i'll bounce my head on the pool floor trying...what should I do?

If at all possible, get someone to teach you/help you, but if not ... take it slow at first. You're not aiming your head at the bottom of the pool. It's actually less of a somersault than ... hm, not sure how to put it into words. There are threads and BT articles with video that explain quite well how to learn to do a flip turn, and yes--3 ft. is plenty.



Yep.  I'm 6'3" and I did flip turns in 2.5 ft of water at an indoor tri in January.  Now, I had to slightly adjust my push off cause I bounced off the bottom the first few times I did it, but it is totally doable. 

When I was trying to learn them on my own I use to hit the bottom all the time (note 3ft.).  What helped me was to actually slow down.  I was always freaking about wanting air asap that I would rush through it.  So, slow down.  Another thing is to watch your feet.  I don't do it anymore but when I was first learning I would watch my feet and I would actually kind of pause while flipped over and upside down and I would reposition myself if necessary so that my feet were properly placed on the wall and I could then push off. 



This video, from here on BT, helped me TREMENDOUSLY in improving my flip turns.

http://www.beginnertriathlete.com/cms/article-detail.asp?articleid=1388
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