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2011-10-16 3:53 PM

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Subject: Faster with a pull buoy

Should triathletes be swimming faster with pull buoys?  I am about 15-18sec faster with a buoy and my friends are critical stating I don't use my legs enough.  Wouldn't this be a smart thing and save the legs for the bike & run?  Or should I be focusing on swimming like a swim athlete?  I most likely use a 2 count leg kick on every stroke which I guess isn't enough.  I don't drag that much and I don't "scissor" in the water causing drag.  My 500 is around a 7:45 but would like a sub-7.  My kicks are pretty fundamentally sound, I'm just not doing it enough.  Advice?



2011-10-16 3:58 PM
in reply to: #3725761

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Subject: RE: Faster with a pull buoy

You don't kick at all with a PB so I assume there is an issue with your position in the water? I am a little faster but not 15-18 seconds faster, that seems pretty dramatic to me if that's per 100.

2011-10-16 3:58 PM
in reply to: #3725761

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Subject: RE: Faster with a pull buoy

I think everyone is faster with a pull buoy - it helps your legs to float instead of drag.

2011-10-16 3:58 PM
in reply to: #3725761

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Subject: RE: Faster with a pull buoy
My non expert opinion would be that your not kicking enough. A big chunk of resistance is body position. When you dont kick enough your feet drop (as well as the rest of your body) and you have a lot more drag from your body. I use a 4 beat kick personally.
2011-10-16 4:03 PM
in reply to: #3725765

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Subject: RE: Faster with a pull buoy
Afletcher - 2011-10-16 3:58 PM

I think everyone is faster with a pull buoy - it helps your legs to float instead of drag.

that is the misconception.  the buoy is there as a tool to help you work on pull and stroke.  so you dont have to focus on kicking also.

but since most triathlete have a horrible position in the water what happens the bouy pulls their butt up to the surface and actually helps them generate much much less drag.

personally i am always slower with a bouy not by much but i also swim differently making sure each stroke has a purpose. 

2011-10-16 4:07 PM
in reply to: #3725761

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Subject: RE: Faster with a pull buoy
Less drag and poor body position plus a lousy kick = faster with a pull buoy.  Personally I think the whole "don't kick on the swim to 'save' your legs for the bike and run"  is a bunch of horse hockey.  You wanna believe that?  Awesome will be glad to exit the water before you.  You wanna be a faster swimmer?  Work on your kick work on your body position get a coach to help you.  Watch some videos of elite swimmers. They kick like crazy.  There is a reason for it.


2011-10-16 4:07 PM
in reply to: #3725761

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Subject: RE: Faster with a pull buoy

good video in slow mo sun yang.  you can't see perfectly position but you get the idea where the legs are in comparison to the body.

most triathletes tend to drag feet at the bottom of the pool. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvM3JYC--hM

2011-10-16 4:11 PM
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Subject: RE: Faster with a pull buoy

Socks - 2011-10-16 4:07 PM Less drag and poor body position plus a lousy kick = faster with a pull buoy.  Personally I think the whole "don't kick on the swim to 'save' your legs for the bike and run"  is a bunch of horse hockey.  You wanna believe that?  Awesome will be glad to exit the water before you.  You wanna be a faster swimmer?  Work on your kick work on your body position get a coach to help you.  Watch some videos of elite swimmers. They kick like crazy.  There is a reason for it.

bingo and always kick.

2011-10-16 4:18 PM
in reply to: #3725779

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Subject: RE: Faster with a pull buoy
trix - 2011-10-16 5:11 PM

Socks - 2011-10-16 4:07 PM Less drag and poor body position plus a lousy kick = faster with a pull buoy.  Personally I think the whole "don't kick on the swim to 'save' your legs for the bike and run"  is a bunch of horse hockey.  You wanna believe that?  Awesome will be glad to exit the water before you.  You wanna be a faster swimmer?  Work on your kick work on your body position get a coach to help you.  Watch some videos of elite swimmers. They kick like crazy.  There is a reason for it.

bingo and always kick.

x3. Plus, being significantly faster with a buoy is usually indicative of a poor body position with dragging legs. The buoy helps fix that, making you faster. The better your body position gets, the less difference there will be.
2011-10-16 4:25 PM
in reply to: #3725761

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Subject: RE: Faster with a pull buoy
To the people who just stated they kick like crazy...what are you kicks per stroke?  4-5?  What do you think the max distance is on your leg spread from toe to ankle? 
2011-10-16 5:16 PM
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Subject: RE: Faster with a pull buoy

I also swim about 15 secs/100m faster w/ pull buoy.

My freestyle 400m PR is 6:12 without and 5:19 WITH Pull buoy

I am guilty of bad body position poor kicking.  However, I did manage to swim a 1:11 in my first IM, without straining in the least.  (Of course, it was with a full wetsuit).

 

I offer the following footage of the pros to see how much kicking is done in the middle of an IM swim:

http://youtu.be/gJQslg4xuTg?t=1m30s

 

Elite mile swimmers:

http://youtu.be/562GY96-cik

Remember, when triathletes get out of the water, there are still two events with our legs.



2011-10-16 5:20 PM
in reply to: #3725831

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Subject: RE: Faster with a pull buoy
pga_mike - 2011-10-16 6:16 PM

I also swim about 15 secs/100m faster w/ pull buoy.

My freestyle 400m PR is 6:12 without and 5:19 WITH Pull buoy

I am guilty of bad body position poor kicking.  However, I did manage to swim a 1:11 in my first IM, without straining in the least.  (Of course, it was with a full wetsuit).

 

I offer the following footage of the pros to see how much kicking is done in the middle of an IM swim:

http://youtu.be/gJQslg4xuTg?t=1m30s

 

Elite mile swimmers:

http://youtu.be/562GY96-cik

Remember, when triathletes get out of the water, there are still two events with our legs.

It's hard to see, but those pros actually have a fairly decent kick going.  It's not splashing a lot, or breaking the surface, but it's a good steady kick.  Just enough to keep your feet up in the water and help with rotation and form.  It doesn't generate a ton of propulsion.

You definitely should be faster without a pull buoy, no matter how hard you're kicking.

2011-10-16 5:51 PM
in reply to: #3725837

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Subject: RE: Faster with a pull buoy
apicek - 2011-10-16 5:20 PM
pga_mike - 2011-10-16 6:16 PM

I also swim about 15 secs/100m faster w/ pull buoy.

My freestyle 400m PR is 6:12 without and 5:19 WITH Pull buoy

I am guilty of bad body position poor kicking.  However, I did manage to swim a 1:11 in my first IM, without straining in the least.  (Of course, it was with a full wetsuit).

 

I offer the following footage of the pros to see how much kicking is done in the middle of an IM swim:

http://youtu.be/gJQslg4xuTg?t=1m30s

 

Elite mile swimmers:

http://youtu.be/562GY96-cik

Remember, when triathletes get out of the water, there are still two events with our legs.

It's hard to see, but those pros actually have a fairly decent kick going.  It's not splashing a lot, or breaking the surface, but it's a good steady kick.  Just enough to keep your feet up in the water and help with rotation and form.  It doesn't generate a ton of propulsion.

You definitely should be faster without a pull buoy, no matter how hard you're kicking.

Again, I beg to differ.  The oversimplification of the role of kicking in triathlon swimming is rampant in the tri-community.  There are a lot of physiological/strategic factors to consider.

I have very weak, inflexible ankles.  I am also not very coordinated.  (I got kicked out of 3 musicals for my lack of dancing ability).  However, I have strong, extremely flexible shoulders.  Also, I store my body fat in my torso.  I have extremely strong, lean legs, especially my calves.  I cannot float in fresh water without propulsion.

Should I swim faster with kicking than with a pool buoy?  Probably not.

I have gone from a 2:45 to 1:18 for 100m.  Do I kick for 100m? Vigorously.  Do I kick for 400m? Yes.  Do I kick for 1000m+?  Just a little.



Edited by pga_mike 2011-10-16 5:56 PM
2011-10-16 7:38 PM
in reply to: #3725761

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Subject: RE: Faster with a pull buoy
As others have stated: the problem is a combo of poor kick and poor body position. A pool buoy is a good tool, for people to see where their body position should be. Swimmers can get the ideal body position without a pool bouy and without kicking at all. I am not saying you should not kick. You should work on getting your butt and legs high by using your core muscles and work on improving the kick. Train less with a pool buoy. Use it every now and then to recheck how "high butt position" feels
2011-10-16 7:53 PM
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Subject: RE: Faster with a pull buoy
I've found that a more steady, slower kick is effective at keeping my legs up. I have spent about 10 sessions with a coach this summer and its been immensely helpful-well worth the investment as I had never actually '"learned" how to swim before.
2011-10-16 8:57 PM
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Subject: RE: Faster with a pull buoy

sandall81 - 2011-10-16 5:25 PM To the people who just stated they kick like crazy...what are you kicks per stroke?  4-5?  What do you think the max distance is on your leg spread from toe to ankle? 

I don't think people are saying 'kick like crazy'.  They are saying that being faster with a pull buoy has a lot to do with poor position in the water.  You don't have to kick like crazy to have good position.  Do pulling sets but without a pull buoy -- just keep your legs 'still' in the water.  Doing so is hard, but will help your position, IMO.  If you can't keep your legs still, wrap something around them (velcro strap, old bike tube, whatever).  But I think it is better to train yourself to keep them still (I mean for the drills, not always!).  Doing so gives you more control over your kick.

If you work on good position without kicking, you'll find (at least, I have -- not that I'm an expert swimmer by any stretch) that kicking doesn't really have a lot to do with establishing good position in the water, but more to do with rotation and providing a good 'counterpoint' (maybe 'counter-lever' or 'counter-balance' or 'platform' are better terms) against which to pull.



2011-10-17 12:59 AM
in reply to: #3726034

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Subject: RE: Faster with a pull buoy
Experior - 2011-10-16 5:57 PM

I don't think people are saying 'kick like crazy'.  They are saying that being faster with a pull buoy has a lot to do with poor position in the water.  You don't have to kick like crazy to have good position.  Do pulling sets but without a pull buoy -- just keep your legs 'still' in the water.  Doing so is hard, but will help your position, IMO.  If you can't keep your legs still, wrap something around them (velcro strap, old bike tube, whatever).  But I think it is better to train yourself to keep them still (I mean for the drills, not always!).  Doing so gives you more control over your kick.

If you work on good position without kicking, you'll find (at least, I have -- not that I'm an expert swimmer by any stretch) that kicking doesn't really have a lot to do with establishing good position in the water, but more to do with rotation and providing a good 'counterpoint' (maybe 'counter-lever' or 'counter-balance' or 'platform' are better terms) against which to pull.

Makes perfect sense.  I'll strap my feet together over the next couple weeks and see if that works.  I'm not slow by any means, but I would like to try and get a sub-7 over the next couple months.

2011-10-17 7:57 AM
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Subject: RE: Faster with a pull buoy
sandall81 - 2011-10-17 12:59 AM
Experior - 2011-10-16 5:57 PM

I don't think people are saying 'kick like crazy'.  They are saying that being faster with a pull buoy has a lot to do with poor position in the water.  You don't have to kick like crazy to have good position.  Do pulling sets but without a pull buoy -- just keep your legs 'still' in the water.  Doing so is hard, but will help your position, IMO.  If you can't keep your legs still, wrap something around them (velcro strap, old bike tube, whatever).  But I think it is better to train yourself to keep them still (I mean for the drills, not always!).  Doing so gives you more control over your kick.

If you work on good position without kicking, you'll find (at least, I have -- not that I'm an expert swimmer by any stretch) that kicking doesn't really have a lot to do with establishing good position in the water, but more to do with rotation and providing a good 'counterpoint' (maybe 'counter-lever' or 'counter-balance' or 'platform' are better terms) against which to pull.

Makes perfect sense.  I'll strap my feet together over the next couple weeks and see if that works.  I'm not slow by any means, but I would like to try and get a sub-7 over the next couple months.

Be sure to do this in the shallow end WITH a lifeguard watching.  Just sayin'

2011-10-17 9:37 AM
in reply to: #3726034

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Subject: RE: Faster with a pull buoy
Experior - 2011-10-16 8:57 PM

sandall81 - 2011-10-16 5:25 PM To the people who just stated they kick like crazy...what are you kicks per stroke?  4-5?  What do you think the max distance is on your leg spread from toe to ankle? 

I don't think people are saying 'kick like crazy'.  They are saying that being faster with a pull buoy has a lot to do with poor position in the water.  You don't have to kick like crazy to have good position.  Do pulling sets but without a pull buoy -- just keep your legs 'still' in the water.  Doing so is hard, but will help your position, IMO.  If you can't keep your legs still, wrap something around them (velcro strap, old bike tube, whatever).  But I think it is better to train yourself to keep them still (I mean for the drills, not always!).  Doing so gives you more control over your kick.

If you work on good position without kicking, you'll find (at least, I have -- not that I'm an expert swimmer by any stretch) that kicking doesn't really have a lot to do with establishing good position in the water, but more to do with rotation and providing a good 'counterpoint' (maybe 'counter-lever' or 'counter-balance' or 'platform' are better terms) against which to pull.

 

very well put! 

 

learning to have good body position without a kick at all, is great for training.  Most people will try it and think you are crazy. Its hard to do at first, but possible.



Edited by peteweb55403 2011-10-17 9:38 AM
2011-10-17 10:10 AM
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Subject: RE: Faster with a pull buoy

I have to agree that if you are faster with a pull buoy, you probably have issues with your body position.

I am about the same with the pull buoy as without it. I would think this means that my position is OK, but could be improved. If I could get the position improvements of the buoy and the little bit of extra propulsion from my kick, maybe I would be faster.

As for kicking, I know more than one challenged athlete who has to use their kick as a major source of propulsion. However, it really depends on the length of the race and the way you practice. 

Try a could of 100 or 200 meter repeats after a good warm up and compare yourself with and without a kick. How is your breathing, how do your legs feel, were you faster?

2011-10-17 10:23 AM
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Subject: RE: Faster with a pull buoy
I'm also in the 'slower' camp when it comes to using a pull buoy. Maybe I have decent body position, but I'm nowhere close to being considered fast. Throw on some paddles and I can drop my 100m time by about ten seconds though, but only for around 400-600m, then my shoulders start to get a little sore.


2011-10-17 10:31 AM
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Subject: RE: Faster with a pull buoy

I agree it's mostly body position but also can be how you're kicking in general.  Get someone more experienced to look at you swim.

FWIW one of the guys I swim with in a masters group also does Tri's.  He has a better kick than I do and I have a better pull.  When we do sets of 200's 300's etc. he's better, at least when he didn't do a long run earlier in the day.  When we do pulls I'm faster.  In OWS without wetsuits we're pretty even.  His kick is better but he doesn't kick like crazy in an effort to "save" leg energy for the bike.  In wetsuit swims I'm slightly faster because of body position correction with the bouyancy and my pull.  In a SCY swim meet he beat me in the 1000 by 40 seconds, he doesn't do flip turns, I do.  That's because he has a much better kick than I do.

I am faster with the pull bouy but I want to improve my overall swim times and I need to improve my kick for that to happen.  That will take some coaching as I don't think it's just a matter of just doing more kick sets.

2011-10-17 10:49 AM
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Subject: RE: Faster with a pull buoy

My legs tend to sink. Or, maybe the best way to say it is that I don't "push" down enough on the water with my chest, or "press my buoy" as one program calls it.  Any way, I'm faster with a pull buoy, but not as much as I used to be. I'm faster without a pull buoy then I used to be because the pull buoy helps me to feel a more correct position.  I tend to think about every stroke and every effect it has on my position when I'm using a buoy.  That's made me a better swimmer.  My goal as I go forward is to decrease the gap on speed with and without a buoy, and eventually be faster without it.  My goal has always been to swim my 100's between 1:25 and 1:30.  I'm now there with a buoy, but about 5 seconds off without it.  The gap a year ago was nearly 15 seconds and my 100 times were 1:45 with and 2:00 without.  It's working for me (along with other drills), and I've got a Winter to get there.

2012-03-14 11:11 AM
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Subject: RE: Faster with a pull buoy

Question...first time I used one was today.  I was 5-6 seconds faster per 100.  I had not idea what to expect and actually thought I would be slower dragging the pull float around.  Anyway, after 2000 yards, I threw it on the deck and took off.....wow...what a difference, I was much slower.

 

Question is how do you transition from the position you are in with the buoy vs without.  Using it, it corrects my position and I am faster.  Remove it and I am slower.  Any suggestions.

2012-03-14 12:05 PM
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Subject: RE: Faster with a pull buoy
I belive I am faster with bouy as well. To further complicate this question how does a wetsuit enter into the equation? If my legs are sinking without the pull bouy would the wetsuit bring me closer to the pull bouy level?
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