General Discussion Triathlon Talk » "Hi, My Name is Pat, and my Swim Sucks" Rss Feed  
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2005-09-27 5:11 PM

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Subject: "Hi, My Name is Pat, and my Swim Sucks"
...that's probably how I'd kick off my SSA meeting (Sucky Swimmers Anonymous).

So yeah...I'll well acquainted with the water, but for recreation purposes only. I've had a pool in my backyard since I was born, but I've never done any real lap swimming. My girlfriend (PheonixAzul) used to swim in high school, so she has her technique down pat (pun fully intended).

Since she's three hours away at school and I'm here, I don't really have a way to visualize good technique and there's no one here that can really help me or watch me to tell me what I'm doing wrong.

Does the collective mind of BT recommend any swim technique websites or books that might help me? Otherwise, Tracey is going to have to draw diagrams for me haha.


2005-09-27 5:53 PM
in reply to: #254819

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Elite
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Subject: RE: "Hi, My Name is Pat, and my Swim Sucks"

Welcome Pat.  I'm a SSA member as well.  Maybe we can share coffee, donuts and horror stories after the meeting. 

But really, share with us what techniques you learn.  I'll follow the thread and see what experienced swimmers have to offer.

-Michael

2005-09-27 6:20 PM
in reply to: #254819

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Pro
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Subject: RE: "Hi, My Name is Pat, and my Swim Sucks"
aww, my poor sucky swimmer.

- Bend the elbows (wallet out of pocket)
- lead with your elbows, not your hands (no windmill)
- S underwater...slight scull outward, then inward towards your hip, push hard at your hip
- stare at the bottom of the pool, press down at the T spot (line through the top of your nipple and a line through your body vertically, that intersection)
- breathe out through your nose and mouth (majority nose) underwater
- roll sideways for breath
- kick through breath
- long lines, reach out infront of your shoulder, not across your body!
- engage your core muscles, they do more than you think.

Edited by phoenixazul 2005-09-27 6:21 PM
2005-09-27 8:50 PM
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2005-09-27 8:57 PM
in reply to: #254819

The Original
7834
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Raleigh/Durham
Subject: RE: "Hi, My Name is Pat, and my Swim Sucks"
Hey ya'll- let me share my sucky swim story.  When I first started back in January I was awful.  No upper body strength, poor technique, and very slow.  I am FINALLY started to see improvement and funny this is that I'm not swimming with the Master's right now.  My 1/2 IM training has required more time spent in the pool and longer swim workouts than my polympic trianing.  I think this has really helped me, and I am actually impressing myself with my swim times.  I would say spend more time in the pool- it's the only way you'll get better.  And lifting weights for your lats, tri's and shoulders will help with strength.  I'm still not fast, but I am much faster than I used to be   Funy thing is that my goal is to be a middle of pack swimmer- hopefully I'll do that for my 1/2 IM instead of being in the back
2005-09-27 10:24 PM
in reply to: #254819


13

Subject: RE: "Hi, My Name is Pat, and my Swim Sucks" (long)
I just started swimming in January, too. I hired a coach after reading BT. Luckily I found a great one, local pro Desiree Ficker in Austin TX. She rules! If you are in Austin, during the off-season, hire her. She will teach you to swim. After thee lessons with Desiree and swimming every weekday for a month, I bacame totally at home in water. I can recover from cramps, sneeze, cough, get chlorine burn in the sinuses, think about shopping lists, whatever, all while continuing to swim.

Anyway, I was a runner who could not swim, so she watched me trash and told me what to do diffferently.

Short version of the story is that my goal was 800m for a sprint tri, and she had me break-through a mile swim after three lessons. Hire a good tri-swim coach if you can afford it.

Tips that helped me make it:

If you are running out of breath, stop kicking. Kicking too fast uses big muscles and burns up your oxygen, leaving you out of breath and panicky. Kick only as a natural counter to your body roll and arm movement. Think about it like throwing a baseball, you gotta step into it to get power out of your core muscles.

Roll your body along its long axis in time with arm strokes. You have to reach up a bit when you turn your head to break the surface and breath.

Breathing: Do it as you feel you feel the need. Sometimes every other stroke, same side. Sometimes every third, bilateral. Sometimes every fourth stroke. Learn to breath either side, whenever you need the oxygen, based on effort level. My swim breakthrough came afer I read BFD's great swim post here on BT, and he said that just like running, there is a point where your mind wants to quit, but with swimming, your mind throws panic and drawing into the arguement, so the quit message usually wins. Don't give in to the quit zone! Swim through it, and your distance limits will disapear. Unfortunately, I have to fight through my quit zone every swim, usually about lap five.

Body position: Push your head and chest down into the water, swim downhill, get your legs up and breaking the surface every once in a while.

Stroke: The key is high elbow. On the recovery, keep a high elbow, drag your fingertips along the surrface of the water. It feels cool, try it. Catch the water by driving your hand into the water, fingers together, pointed straight down, keep the elbow high, so as you pull yourself forward through the water, your pointed down hand becomes a pointed down hand and forearm. Once the hand and forearm are both pointed straight down, pull them back to finish the stroke. Keep pulling back with your hand until your palm brushes past thigh and you toss a bit of water up into the air. If you want really feel the water during the forearm pull, try the closed fist swim drill for a lap or two, then open your hands. Also, make your pull parallel to your body, but out to the side where you find clear water that is not disturbed by your body's travel.

Balance: I cannot talk to balance in the water because I have none. I sink like a rock. i can't do the drills.

Swim a lot and you will start to like it. For a while I liked it more than biking, but I got over that.


Banzai



2005-09-28 8:14 AM
in reply to: #254819

Pro
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Wisconsin near the Twin Cities metro
Subject: RE: "Hi, My Name is Pat, and my Swim Sucks"
This is how bad my swim sucks....Pigman Half Ironman in Iowa this summer: My run ranked 21st overall, bike was 80th overall, and my swim was 302nd overall...that is not a typo! 302nd!!! Actually, this is my first summer of tris and I haven't trained for swimming much, so I've signed up for a TI swim workshop and plan to spend a lot of time in the pool this winter.
2005-09-28 8:24 AM
in reply to: #254819

Extreme Veteran
424
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Lenexa, KS
Subject: RE: "Hi, My Name is Pat, and my Swim Sucks"
How true, how true. I'm in the same boat. My swim splits always have me at, or near the very bottom of the pack. Run is in the top 1/4 usually and bike is somewhere in the top 1/3. If I could only get that swim down, I'd be OK. I'll look forward to reading the recommendations.

2005-09-28 8:38 AM
in reply to: #254819

Expert
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San Diego
Subject: RE: "Hi, My Name is Pat, and my Swim Sucks"
BODY ROLL (your shoulders and hips should move as one)

kick comes from the hips, not the knees

fingertips down, high elbows on both your pull and recovery

bi-lateral breathe

finish your stroke past your hips

try Championship Swim Training by Dick Hannula
2005-09-28 9:03 AM
in reply to: #255011

The Original
7834
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Raleigh/Durham
Subject: RE: "Hi, My Name is Pat, and my Swim Sucks" (long)

banzai - 2005-09-27 11:24 PM If you are running out of breath, stop kicking. Kicking too fast uses big muscles and burns up your oxygen, leaving you out of breath and panicky. 

Well said! I barely kick when I swim.  My master's swim aoch told me to keep kicking at a min so i can save my legs for the bike and run. And, he said that for the amount of energy used for kicking, it doesn't help you go that much faster.  It helps with speed, but not as much as you would think.  Once I decreased my kicking I felt much better in the water- less exhausted!

2005-09-28 9:09 AM
in reply to: #254819

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2005-09-28 9:11 AM
in reply to: #254819

Pro
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Pittsburgh, my heart is in Glasgow
Subject: RE: "Hi, My Name is Pat, and my Swim Sucks"
Ya gotta be careful with the kick...the kick motion balances the roll of your body. I'm sure you've all seen those people who look like their upper body is independent of their legs when they swim, which is wasted energy (side to side instead of forward). Keeping the kick , just not in super drive, is good. I tend to shift gears when I swim, if I feel my arms are getting tired, I'll kick a bit harder, then go back to the arms for a while.

Here's how my last tri went (funny because it is opposite of everyone else's...39 out of the water, 89 on the bike, 125 (out of 127) on the run. Yes, that's right, DFL.
2005-09-28 9:20 AM
in reply to: #254819

Expert
1213
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Los Gatos, CA
Subject: RE: "Hi, My Name is Pat, and my Swim Sucks"
I have been working for 9 months to get out of this club...it's been a battle....the advice here is all correct in my estimation...I also had coaching....you need to spend time in the water often...don't worry about yards, think time, just keep swimming and constantly think form and technique....I am doing Oly distance ocean swims now at 2 minutes per 100 so I am overcoming the problem gradually but I could barely cross the pool in January. I am joining masters program to increase my volume and get more direction....keep that head down...even put your chin on your chest in the beginning to force that downhill position, you need to swim immersed by water and get comfortable with that. I don't kick much either as it wears me out but I know I need to learn that, it is a missing element. It is possible to swim distance without kicking, especially in a wetsuit...This is just like golf, a life long pursuit of the perfect form.

Edited by us50090 2005-09-28 9:27 AM
2005-09-28 10:42 AM
in reply to: #255011

Pro
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Vestavia Hills
Subject: RE: "Hi, My Name is Pat, and my Swim Sucks" (long)
banzai - 2005-09-27 11:24 PM

I just started swimming in January, too. I hired a coach after reading BT. Luckily I found a great one, local pro Desiree Ficker in Austin TX. She rules! ... Banzai



Banzai ... great post - very informative. Since my swimming is just this side of drowning, I think I'll need to take the swim coach route for more remedial, hands on lessons. How did you find your coach and, if you don't mind me asking, how much does it cost?

Thanks!
2005-09-28 10:55 AM
in reply to: #254819

The Original
7834
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Raleigh/Durham
Subject: RE: "Hi, My Name is Pat, and my Swim Sucks"
I am sure some of the Atlanta BT'ers could recommend some good swim coaches.  I live in Augusta so I can't help you. I know that TriComet has taken swim lessons and she's in Atlanta.  You could probably PM her for some recommendations, or Rocketman- he might know since he's a tri coach.  My swim coach charges $20 an hour fror private swim lessons.  Not sure what they charge in the Atlanta area.
2005-09-28 11:17 AM
in reply to: #254819

Regular
60
2525
Tempe, AZ
Subject: RE: "Hi, My Name is Pat, and my Swim Sucks"
Don't hold your breath! You should always be either breathing in or breathing out. That was a big one for me.

Other than that I recommend doing drills. Drill, drill, drill. They help a lot. Some of them are evil and make you feel like you're gonna drown, but they really help you with form.

And practice. Just keep hitting the pool and eventually it'll all come together. Be patient with yourself and remember that everyone is always working on their form. It'll never be perfect. (If only I could take my own advice!)


2005-09-28 12:34 PM
in reply to: #254819

Expert
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Medina, MN
Subject: RE: "Hi, My Name is Pat, and my Swim Sucks"
One drill for you all to try is a catch-up drill: Generally, start with both hands in front of you and pull with one, but don't start the stroke with your next hand until the first hand gets back in front of you and your hands touch. You'll probably need to kick a little bit to keep your legs from sinking due to the low turnover, but it should help you get used to gliding at the start of each stroke. As you get the hang of it, you can start letting your hand start the pull a little sooner. For reference, most good distance swimmers will start their pull with the right hand about when their left hand gets in line with their head on the recovery (and vice versa). There should be a nice little glide at the start of each stroke, where your hand enters the water and is stretched forward in the direction you're going. Make sure you feel that glide, rather than just having your hand hit the water and instantly begin your pull/stroke.
2005-09-28 12:43 PM
in reply to: #254819

over a barrier
Subject: RE: "Hi, My Name is Pat, and my Swim Sucks"
Hi my is Hayes, and the water is my second home. he he.

I just searched under swimming clips...here are a few. It's easier to watch and then explain. The biggest problem I see with swimmers is cutting there stroke off too short. Once your hand enters the water, try and keep just below the surface and stretch it out (8 inches) once its under water, this causes you to slightly roll to one side and pull back....repeat. repeat repeat

http://wellness.lattc.cc.ca.us/real/strokes.html
2005-09-28 1:23 PM
in reply to: #255323


13

Subject: RE: "Hi, My Name is Pat, and my Swim Sucks" (long)
Reply to huengsolo,

I found my coach by just calling a tri-store 9Austin tri-cyclist). Call them up and ask for a recommendation. The shop gave me a great reference for a swim coach and I have since spent a ton of money there buying a bike, etc.

Different coaches will charge different amounts. I think about a coach like any other professional, plus they offer something that fall into my fun category, thus is more important than daily needs.

Cost is something to worked out with the individual coach. Find the right coach first, then worry about the price. You can always do one lesson first, and if the two of you are not a fit, find another coach. My coach came highly recommended by a reputable source, and gave me huge improvements during the first lesson.

It all comes down to the question, "can you hang a dollar figure on improved performance?" I can. I paid a fair price (and added personal effort) and gained the ability to swim comfortably for a mile or more. As a not-strong swimmer, how much would you pay for a magical, instant ability to swim a 25 to 30 minute mile? If you spent $700 on a bike that you will eventually trade-up from, and $130 on running shoes that will wear out, what will you spend to improve your swimming forever? Later, you can even help your friends improve in their swimming after you get your form squared-away.

Get a tri-swim coach who specializes in turning runners/biker into swimmers and you will be happy. Ask for and check references in the local tri community to prevent wasted money.

Get the right coach and swimming will become a non-issue.
2005-09-28 1:28 PM
in reply to: #255421

The Original
7834
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Raleigh/Durham
Subject: RE: "Hi, My Name is Pat, and my Swim Sucks"

MLJ - 2005-09-28 1:34 PM One drill for you all to try is a catch-up drill: Generally, start with both hands in front of you and pull with one, but don't start the stroke with your next hand until the first hand gets back in front of you and your hands touch. You'll probably need to kick a little bit to keep your legs from sinking due to the low turnover, but it should help you get used to gliding at the start of each stroke. As you get the hang of it, you can start letting your hand start the pull a little sooner. For reference, most good distance swimmers will start their pull with the right hand about when their left hand gets in line with their head on the recovery (and vice versa). There should be a nice little glide at the start of each stroke, where your hand enters the water and is stretched forward in the direction you're going. Make sure you feel that glide, rather than just having your hand hit the water and instantly begin your pull/stroke.

I started out doing the catch up drill with a kick board, and then got to the point where I could do the drill without it.  I found using hte kick board helpful when first trying this drill.

2005-09-28 2:26 PM
in reply to: #255469

Philadelphia, south of New York and north of DC
Subject: RE: "Hi, My Name is Pat, and my Swim Sucks"
Gosh, this thread has been up for nearly a day and no one has mentioned Total Immersion?

Total Immersion

TI is just great!


2005-09-28 4:00 PM
in reply to: #254819

Master
1845
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Athens, Ga.
Subject: RE: "Hi, My Name is Pat, and my Swim Sucks"
TI looks cool.
I was a Y swim teacher during college days, and taught mostly beginners - i.e. those people who couldn't swim at all - and mostly kids. But a few basic things are true no matter what your age/size/etc. Hope I'm not copying anybody's post, but if so, oh well!
1. Most triathletes don't have much body fat, especially guys. This can sometimes cause your rear end - legs included - to go down in the water. One of the guys I lifeguarded with actually swam with this weird, choppy, up-down motion. Point of all this - make sure to bring your legs up. Try, if at all possible, to keep your body flat as you swim.
2. Your kick shouldn't make much splash. If you're hitting people on the deck and you're in the middle lane, tone it down.
3. Focus on each time you pull one arm in and out of the water. If you mess up form on that stroke, don't beat yourself up. Try again on the next one, and the next and the next. You get the idea.
4. Breathe on the side that feels most comfortable to you. Crazy, I know, but I'm left-handed. For years it freaked me out every time I turned my head to the right.
5. Watch other swimmers. When you're swimming, or sitting on the side of the pool, watch the really good swimmers and try to copy their form.
Also, if you can't afford a coach, consider a YMCA swim instructor. While most adult classes are for beginners, there's probably at least one person on the aquatics staff who is an awesome swimmer/coach and they will probably be a bit cheaper than an outside coach.
Hope that helps.
2005-09-28 4:50 PM
in reply to: #255642


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Subject: RE: "Hi, My Name is Pat, and my Swim Sucks"
watergirl - 2005-09-28 4:00 PM


1. Most triathletes don't have much body fat, especially guys. This can sometimes cause your rear end - legs included - to go down in the water. One of the guys I lifeguarded with actually swam with this weird, choppy, up-down motion. Point of all this - make sure to bring your legs up. Try, if at all possible, to keep your body flat as you swim.
////

To get your legs to float near the water surface, in addition to pressing your head and chest down into the water, it helps to also arch your lower back.

Also, if you sink a little everytime you take a breath, you will lose less speed unless you quickly force your head down to its lowest level after each breath. If you are too slow to get your head deep into the water, your high head drives your legs and torso lower into the water, slowing your swim speed down.

2005-09-28 10:26 PM
in reply to: #254819

Member
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Subject: RE: "Hi, My Name is Pat, and my Swim Sucks"
Thanks for all the great replies!
2005-09-29 12:02 AM
in reply to: #255683

Subject: RE: "Hi, My Name is Pat, and my Swim Sucks"

I think I'm one of the low bodyfat guys that bobs up and down in the water.
I try to keep my head down except when I have to turn to breathe, but I'm still very slow. Is it hopeless?

banzai's comment about arching the lower back seems unusual. How can you do that when swimming?

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