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2011-11-13 6:54 PM

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Subject: Question for Advocates of Barry P 3:2:1 Plan
I am coming off of a PF injury and haven't been out on a run for three weeks now. When I am finally able to return to running I am going to try the advice by many of you on here and follow the mantra run lot's, mostly easy, sometimes hard. When I am ready to return to running I am planning on taking a very conservative approach which will be to build my volume over a period of six months. I will being training for my first HIM in January with a race date of June. So here are my questions. How is it practical for a triathlete who is trying to balance swim and bike training and still be able to run six days a week? The second part of my question relates to injury. I am an older athlete over 40 and I am a little leery about running six days a week. Especially since I am coming off of an overuse injury. I understand the methodology of the conservative efforts of the plan IE.  mostly easy runs combined with a very gradual weekly volume increase. I guess I am just a bit gun shy as to whether or not my body will be able to adapt to such frequency. Any thoughts?


2011-11-13 9:03 PM
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Subject: RE: Question for Advocates of Barry P 3:2:1 Plan
Not only do you want to gradually build your mileage up but also build up to 6 days a week.  Start with enough days a week that you feel comfortable with and that you feel you can recover well from.  When you're ready, add another day with an easy run then reassess how you feel to see if you want to continue with that.
2011-11-13 9:04 PM
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Subject: RE: Question for Advocates of Barry P 3:2:1 Plan

These are good questions, and many of us were similarly skeptical when we were about to drink the Kool Aid. Most of us are 40 or more, and most of us have some kind of running injury history. I was in the same boat as you earlier this year. Looking to build for my first season of tris, but had 5 months off running due to knee injuries, and unsure whether I'd make it through the season.

First, how to combine frequent running with swimming and biking. Folks handle this in different ways, but what worked well for me was to simply do the running after the swimming and biking 6 days/week, and then do a run-only day once per week. This made it far easier to do double days, as it cut out any additional travel, changing, showering time. I also found that an easy run made me feel better than I would have if I stopped after swimming or biking. And it made it easier to start very gradually with the running. Initially I was just running for 10 minutes after my other workouts. After a few months I had built up to 40+ mpw.

Second, how come running often doesn't bring on more injuries? The logic is quite simple: each workout puts a low stress on your body, and you recover quickly. Concentrating all of the week's pounding into 3-4 efforts is more stressful on the body than spreading it out over 6-7 bouts. I have found that my injuries most commonly come from individual occasions that over-tax my body, and not from the overall volume that I do. 

Start very gradually. It may seem too easy at first. But this is the groundwork that's preparing your body to do more.

2011-11-13 9:06 PM
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Subject: RE: Question for Advocates of Barry P 3:2:1 Plan

tbcoffee - 2011-11-13 10:03 PM Not only do you want to gradually build your mileage up but also build up to 6 days a week.  Start with enough days a week that you feel comfortable with and that you feel you can recover well from.  When you're ready, add another day with an easy run then reassess how you feel to see if you want to continue with that.

That's one approach. But I think it's possible to go into the run-almost-every-day approach more quickly, by instead making the initial daily runs almost trivially short/easy. If the runs are hard enough that it takes a couple of days to recover, then it's probably time to scale back a little.

2011-11-13 9:41 PM
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Subject: RE: Question for Advocates of Barry P 3:2:1 Plan

I drank the Kool-aid, and I'm a believer. I am not a runner, and I didn't have injuries... but training for my HIM this year was pretty hard. My fitness sucked to begin with, but I was only doing each sport 3 times a week on a good week. I built my mileage up slow and was not injured...  I got up to 10 mile runs before My HIM... but they were so hard I had to take a couple of days to recover. And I was worried about getting injured... as a result I was only doing 20 miles a week at best. Long story short, I walked half my run and it was a disaster.

FF... 40 mpw, 6x a week. One day off for giggles but don't see it as necessary. I can easily run every day because I RUN EASY. Every work out I am ready to go and not "dreading" it at all. I'm not trying to go fast or do a good pace, I just run easy, but my times have come down a lot. When I do feel like moving, I am way faster than before... and even that does not hurt. I have a HM in Dec I'm training for. I will probably stick to this program till my next HIM in Aug and see how it goes.

Trust me, I could not comprehend how I was going to run every day... I get it. It works. Give it a shot. Listen to your body.

2011-11-13 11:02 PM
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Subject: RE: Question for Advocates of Barry P 3:2:1 Plan

Not an answer about the 3:2:1 program, but I'm 55 and have run every day for over a year. Last year I ran over 3100 miles and on pace for around 2000 miles this year. Run lots, mostly easy, sometimes hard is not limited to people in a certain age range. Build very gradually, and RUN EASY. During the build phase there isn't a big need for running hard. 5% or less of your total will be sufficient. When you get to a volume that seems like enough, hold it and only then start adding in some intensity.

There ae some little exercises and stretching routines that can help with PF. Make them a regular part of your running and you may be able to keep PF from recurring.



2011-11-13 11:02 PM
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Subject: RE: Question for Advocates of Barry P 3:2:1 Plan

dp



Edited by Donskiman 2011-11-13 11:05 PM
2011-11-13 11:02 PM
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Subject: RE: Question for Advocates of Barry P 3:2:1 Plan

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Edited by Donskiman 2011-11-13 11:06 PM
2011-11-13 11:03 PM
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Subject: RE: Question for Advocates of Barry P 3:2:1 Plan

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Edited by Donskiman 2011-11-13 11:06 PM
2011-11-13 11:22 PM
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Subject: RE: Question for Advocates of Barry P 3:2:1 Plan
What kinda of weekly mileage are you planing to start with? 
2011-11-14 5:26 AM
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Subject: RE: Question for Advocates of Barry P 3:2:1 Plan
One more elderly advocate of high running frequency here I'm closing in on 50, and run 5-6 days per week (I modify Barry P to run 3 days on/one day off - works out to 5 days some weeks, 6 days other weeks).

I know it sounds counter-intuitive that running more frequently will help you get injured less, but I am a true believer. What the running frequency does is help build and strengthen what are for most the weak link in the chain - the connective tissues (ligaments, tendons, etc.). The low level stress of frequent EASY running helps to build what I like to call your running durability. I have absolutely no research to back this up, but I suspect that building and maintaining that "durability" is probably even more important for us older folks....

When you start out, begin VERY slowly - perhaps rather than beginning with a 3:2:1 approach, consider starting out with more of a 3:3 approach. Try running 1 mile on your "short" days and 1.5 - 2 miles on your "longer" days. When that feels easy, move to 3:2:1, and make your "long" day 3 miles. Take your time, and don't increase your distances until whatever you're doing feels easy. IOW, don't feel like you HAVE to increase your volume each and every week. If you find yourself feeling overly fatigued or sore, hold steady or even take a step back before you continue to add.

I am a big believer that it's not volume/frequency that causes most running injuries - but either too much intensity, trying to build too quickly, or trying to do longer runs than your body is prepared for. After a marathon last fall, I cut back on running for a bit, and this spring, I figured I had a good enough "base" that I could ramp back up pretty easily. I made the mistake of trying to add bump up both my volume and intensity too quickly and ended up with a (minor) foot injury. I found that by removing all intensity (ALL running at a VERY easy pace) I was able to hold the volume and frequency steady, and the injury has now resolved, and I'm ready to progress again.

As for fitting it all in, you'll figure it out.... Combining workouts as Colin suggested is a good idea. You might also consider getting up a bit earlier in the morning and doing your "short" runs before you head off for work in the morning. I the beginning stages of the plan, your short run will take very little time and should be easy to squeeze in on top of your swim and bike training. I do 2-a-day workouts pretty frequently. If I can separate them I do, but they are often combined.


2011-11-14 6:50 AM
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Subject: RE: Question for Advocates of Barry P 3:2:1 Plan
TimX3 - 2011-11-13 8:54 PM

I guess I am just a bit gun shy as to whether or not my body will be able to adapt to such frequency.


As mentioned, you want to build gradually when changing any aspect of a run program and that is why BarryP's plan has you take your current volume and divide it up over the six runs before starting to build more volume.

Basically if you are going to build volume you hold intensity constant or drop it a bit or if you are going to build intensity, then you hold volume constant or drop it a little bit. So in this case, you start by running your normal weekly volume but instead of doing it over 2, 3, 4 or 5 runs, you do it over 6.

Shane
2011-11-14 7:23 AM
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Subject: RE: Question for Advocates of Barry P 3:2:1 Plan

I am moving towards the run often philosophy as well.  I'm 35 and just started running about 3 years ago.  I started too fast (mileage and pace) and ended up with a stress fracture that took me a long time to recover.  In Jan 2011, I started training for my first half marathon with 3 runs per week - 2 short distance and one longer weekend run all of which were within 30 sec/mile of intended race pace.  I ended up with IT problems about 4 weeks prior to HM.  I completed the HM (April) but then had to take several weeks off before my knee pain subsided.  I registered for my 2nd HM in October and after getting through that training with no ITB problems I registered for my 3rd HM in November.  Between Oct-Nov, I moved to 4 days running per week and slowed my pace to 60-90 sec/mile slower than race pace.  I finished my 3rd HM this past weekend with an 8:40 pace on a course with several hills - and battling a head cold/sinus headache all week.  While I recognize this isn't a fast pace for most people, I could barely run a 10-minute mile when I started training in January of this year.  

I'm going to stick with 4-5 runs per week through the winter but cap my long runs around 8-10 miles to maintain HM fitness.  I'll also add that my post-race recovery keeps getting easier as well.

2011-11-14 11:35 AM
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Subject: RE: Question for Advocates of Barry P 3:2:1 Plan
Ditto to what everyone has said.  I don't know if I'm young (31), but I did the 3 to 4 days per week at near race pace last year.  I ended up getting injured and not able to run for almost 7 months.  Fast forward to this year, try out the 3:2:1 program about 16 weeks ago starting with 10:20:30 minutes.  I'm now running comfortably at 30:60:90 minutes.  I'm a believer!
2011-11-14 12:38 PM
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Subject: RE: Question for Advocates of Barry P 3:2:1 Plan

TimX3 - 2011-11-13 6:54 PM I am coming off of a PF injury and haven't been out on a run for three weeks now. When I am finally able to return to running I am going to try the advice by many of you on here and follow the mantra run lot's, mostly easy, sometimes hard. When I am ready to return to running I am planning on taking a very conservative approach which will be to build my volume over a period of six months. I will being training for my first HIM in January with a race date of June. So here are my questions. How is it practical for a triathlete who is trying to balance swim and bike training and still be able to run six days a week? The second part of my question relates to injury. I am an older athlete over 40 and I am a little leery about running six days a week. Especially since I am coming off of an overuse injury. I understand the methodology of the conservative efforts of the plan IE.  mostly easy runs combined with a very gradual weekly volume increase. I guess I am just a bit gun shy as to whether or not my body will be able to adapt to such frequency. Any thoughts?

Here is how I recommend you go about it.  First, ask yourself this: if you were going to resume running after this injury with 3 runs per week how far would you go?  1 mile each day?  2 miles each day?

If the answer is that you would do 3 runs of 2 miles, then 6 miles is your first week's mileage.  Can your legs tolerate this?  If so, I contend they could better tolerate 6 runs of 1 mile each.  If you do it that way, then the 6 days of running shouldn't cause your legs any issues.

How is it practical for a triathlete to run 6 days?  Well, I do it by running every weekday morning after either a swim or a bike.  Plus 1 or 2 days per week I will do another run after work.

On the weekend I do a longer run and a non-run day (longer bike).

Remember the 3:2:1 plan has 3 days each week doing the '1' part (the short run).  These are probably the days you will also ride.  The '2' days are probably swim days.  The '3' day is probably only a run that day.  The day off will probably be another ride, but could be a swim or a day entirely off.  It's not as hard as you might think.  If you can do the short run after a bike it's really good for injury avoidance IMO because you aren't running on 'cold' joints/tendons.  But if you find it undesirable to run after a hard bike, then running before biking works really well.  I've never even felt the effects of a reasonable run when it was prior to a bike ride...but you really feel it the other way around.  So do it either way.

 

 

2011-11-14 7:53 PM
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Subject: RE: Question for Advocates of Barry P 3:2:1 Plan
Thank you all. This sounds like very solid advice. I am going to give it a try. Now I just need to be patient until my foot heals. I very much appreciate all the feedback.  


2011-11-15 8:25 AM
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Subject: RE: Question for Advocates of Barry P 3:2:1 Plan
TimX3 - 2011-11-13 6:54 PM

I am coming off of a PF injury and haven't been out on a run for three weeks now. When I am finally able to return to running I am going to try the advice by many of you on here and follow the mantra run lot's, mostly easy, sometimes hard. When I am ready to return to running I am planning on taking a very conservative approach which will be to build my volume over a period of six months. I will being training for my first HIM in January with a race date of June. So here are my questions. How is it practical for a triathlete who is trying to balance swim and bike training and still be able to run six days a week? The second part of my question relates to injury. I am an older athlete over 40 and I am a little leery about running six days a week. Especially since I am coming off of an overuse injury. I understand the methodology of the conservative efforts of the plan IE.  mostly easy runs combined with a very gradual weekly volume increase. I guess I am just a bit gun shy as to whether or not my body will be able to adapt to such frequency. Any thoughts?


Thoughts? You are smart to be gun shy! Coming off an injury, to make a plan to run 6 days a week... probably not the best decision.

My clients who have come off injuries get a very conservative 10% overall volume ramp up per week. This might mean they run 3 or 4 days a week. It's really all about how the miles split up. To me it is about the overall mileage, versus the frequency. But at least 3 days a week.

When I have had a client who need to ramp up miles quickly coming off an injury, I had her do a walk/run. 3 minute walk, 2 minute run... which then went to a 2 minute walk, 3 minute run... then a 1 minute walk, 4 minute run... finally all running. That progression happened over months.

Better to be conservative and injury free.

2011-11-15 10:00 AM
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Subject: RE: Question for Advocates of Barry P 3:2:1 Plan

TimX3 - 2011-11-13 6:54 PM I am coming off of a PF injury and haven't been out on a run for three weeks now. When I am finally able to return to running I am going to try the advice by many of you on here and follow the mantra run lot's, mostly easy, sometimes hard. When I am ready to return to running I am planning on taking a very conservative approach which will be to build my volume over a period of six months. I will being training for my first HIM in January with a race date of June. So here are my questions. How is it practical for a triathlete who is trying to balance swim and bike training and still be able to run six days a week? The second part of my question relates to injury. I am an older athlete over 40 and I am a little leery about running six days a week. Especially since I am coming off of an overuse injury. I understand the methodology of the conservative efforts of the plan IE.  mostly easy runs combined with a very gradual weekly volume increase. I guess I am just a bit gun shy as to whether or not my body will be able to adapt to such frequency. Any thoughts?

51 years old and running 6 days a week 1:2:3 puts a LOT less stress and damage to my body than it was with Hal Higedon's 3-4 days week.  I did an HIM and am gonig to do an IM in a couple weeks running 6 days week - check my logs - I had to take 8 weeks off in the middle (lung surgery on my son) but otherwise I kept to plan.

2011-11-15 10:02 AM
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Subject: RE: Question for Advocates of Barry P 3:2:1 Plan

tbcoffee - 2011-11-13 9:03 PM Not only do you want to gradually build your mileage up but also build up to 6 days a week.  Start with enough days a week that you feel comfortable with and that you feel you can recover well from.  When you're ready, add another day with an easy run then reassess how you feel to see if you want to continue with that.

I disagree - when you do 1:2:3 you can start with 10 min runs 3xweek, 20 min 2x and 30 min 1x.  You don't really need to build up to 6 days week - that's the beauty of it.

2011-11-15 10:27 AM
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Subject: RE: Question for Advocates of Barry P 3:2:1 Plan
kathy caribe - 2011-11-15 9:02 AM

tbcoffee - 2011-11-13 9:03 PM Not only do you want to gradually build your mileage up but also build up to 6 days a week.  Start with enough days a week that you feel comfortable with and that you feel you can recover well from.  When you're ready, add another day with an easy run then reassess how you feel to see if you want to continue with that.

I disagree - when you do 1:2:3 you can start with 10 min runs 3xweek, 20 min 2x and 30 min 1x.  You don't really need to build up to 6 days week - that's the beauty of it.

Exactly... when I started my plan, I was doing 10 mile runs, but only doing 20 mpw at most... so I started at 20 mpw doing 2x3, 4x2, 6x1. It felt ridiculously easy at first, but I wanted to see how it would go. I quickly moved up from there to 3,6,9. So ya... you can do 6 days a week to start, just start where you are and spread it out over the week. how you are doing and go from there.

2011-11-15 11:00 AM
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Subject: RE: Question for Advocates of Barry P 3:2:1 Plan
powerman - 2011-11-15 10:27 AM
kathy caribe - 2011-11-15 9:02 AM

tbcoffee - 2011-11-13 9:03 PM Not only do you want to gradually build your mileage up but also build up to 6 days a week.  Start with enough days a week that you feel comfortable with and that you feel you can recover well from.  When you're ready, add another day with an easy run then reassess how you feel to see if you want to continue with that.

I disagree - when you do 1:2:3 you can start with 10 min runs 3xweek, 20 min 2x and 30 min 1x.  You don't really need to build up to 6 days week - that's the beauty of it.

Exactly... when I started my plan, I was doing 10 mile runs, but only doing 20 mpw at most... so I started at 20 mpw doing 2x3, 4x2, 6x1. It felt ridiculously easy at first, but I wanted to see how it would go. I quickly moved up from there to 3,6,9. So ya... you can do 6 days a week to start, just start where you are and spread it out over the week. how you are doing and go from there.

I started with one mile, two miles, three miles... If I felt like I needed to do walk/run - i just slowed down my pace.  There was plenty of 12-13min/miles to begin with...  Granted I did start out on a TM as KSH said - gradually lengthening the intervals of walk/run.  But when I started with BarryP it was just slow, slow running.    Remember - he does not advocate really throwing in speed work for four or five months or when folks are minimally at 3-6-9 miles...  I am just there, but am not going to start working on speed yet - I want to continue to build base miles for the next couple of months before replacing one of the mid workouts with tempo or mile repeats or track work....



2011-11-15 11:23 AM
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Subject: RE: Question for Advocates of Barry P 3:2:1 Plan
powerman - 2011-11-15 12:27 PM

kathy caribe - 2011-11-15 9:02 AM

I disagree - when you do 1:2:3 you can start with 10 min runs 3xweek, 20 min 2x and 30 min 1x.  You don't really need to build up to 6 days week - that's the beauty of it.

Exactly... when I started my plan, I was doing 10 mile runs, but only doing 20 mpw at most... so I started at 20 mpw doing 2x3, 4x2, 6x1. It felt ridiculously easy at first, but I wanted to see how it would go. I quickly moved up from there to 3,6,9. So ya... you can do 6 days a week to start, just start where you are and spread it out over the week. how you are doing and go from there.



This is the key to the plan - you aren't trying to build volume and frequency at the same time but rather spread the volume you are doing over more runs and then to gradually build up the each of these runs.

Shane
2011-11-15 11:41 AM
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Subject: RE: Question for Advocates of Barry P 3:2:1 Plan

Is there a link to where I can get acquainted with this plan?

 

Thanks,

twomarks

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