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2011-11-30 3:57 AM

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Subject: Sinking while exhaling
I have been swim training for about 3 months and things are coming along nicely. I have a question though in regard to exhaling. I have found I have to do this just before I turn my head to breath, "dumping" the air quickly before inhaling, as if I breath out slowly I start to sink as soon as I start to exhale. I was told by a coach a few years ago that people are either sinkers or floaters, and that I'm a sinker. Does this sound right, and is what I'm experiencing common? I understand that body position has an impact on the legs sinking, but this seems different as my whole body starts to sink as soon as I breath out.


2011-11-30 5:25 AM
in reply to: #3919984

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Master
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Subject: RE: Sinking while exhaling
I had this same dilemma tonight. I was finding myself so deep in the water when I'd exhale as I would breathing normally, that it would take forever to get to the surface to get air. I tried the same thing (dumping just before inhaling), but found myself winded quickly.

I'll be keeping my eye on this thread for tips. Thanks for posting it!
2011-11-30 5:37 AM
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Subject: RE: Sinking while exhaling
One small observation/question?  Are you turning just your head or rotating your whole body to breathe?  Makes a big difference.  Ideally you should be rotating your whole body back and forth in the water while stroking.  If you're lifting your head up and then turning it to breathe, that will push your body down and exagerate that sinking feeling.  When you breathe it should almost feel like your laying on the opposite side of where your breathe, turning your head slightly to get your breath.
2011-11-30 9:05 AM
in reply to: #3919984

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Subject: RE: Sinking while exhaling
Are you exhaling through nose/mouth or both? I was always told exhale as soon as you turn your head back into the water but found that I would push a big amount of air out right off the bat and would need some more too quickly. The fix was to only use my nose. I can stretch it out if I just use my nose to exhale and can now bilaterally breathe. Also, are you pushing down on the front end of your lead arm to help you get your head up? This is something I catch myself doing but it will ultimately make you deeper in the water as you see-saw. Also the lead arm depth can greatly influence how high you ride in the water. If you have your lead arm very low in the water, as folks with low shoulder flexibility tend to do, you will begin your catch/pull low in the water and your body will follow.
2011-11-30 9:22 AM
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Master
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Subject: RE: Sinking while exhaling

If you are solid muscle, having such a low body fat percentage that simply exhaling makes you sink, well, CONGRATULATIONS!

If not, you need to work on form and position.

Seriously, you shouldn't be removing enough air from your lungs to sink. Must be something else.

2011-11-30 9:38 AM
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Subject: RE: Sinking while exhaling

manamana - 2011-11-30 3:57 AM I have been swim training for about 3 months and things are coming along nicely. I have a question though in regard to exhaling. I have found I have to do this just before I turn my head to breath, "dumping" the air quickly before inhaling, as if I breath out slowly I start to sink as soon as I start to exhale. I was told by a coach a few years ago that people are either sinkers or floaters, and that I'm a sinker. Does this sound right, and is what I'm experiencing common? I understand that body position has an impact on the legs sinking, but this seems different as my whole body starts to sink as soon as I breath out.

No, people are not "floaters" or "sinkers". Sure, some people due to body composition (i.e., percent lean mass vs. percent fat and relative lung size) float slightly more easily than others.

But I can tell you this: during swimming, a very lean athlete with excellent technique and a good body position will "float" far better than a more buoyant person with bad technique and bad body position.

We have our genetics, we have our gender, we have our body composition. Some of these can't be changed, and others you can only slowly. But you can easily (and pretty rapidly) learn and improve your swim technique. And that is most certainly what is holding you back here, not that fact that you are lean.

 



2011-11-30 10:02 AM
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Master
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Subject: RE: Sinking while exhaling

I'm about as new to formal swim coaching as you are and agree that this is most likely to be attached to form issues. Additionally ... I've found myself doing that quick dump just prior to the breath as well and can tell you that this will not lead to overall improvement. It means you're holding your breath for the strokes prior to that last second dump and you'll build CO2 very quickly, elevating your HR, and ending any gains toward endurance.

As has already been mentioned, I suspect your lead arm to be the major culprit. If that falls as you turn to breath, your body is going to be sinking. Prior to that, though, focus on lowering your chin as you look down to the bottom of the pool. If I raise my head, even slightly, my hips compensate by lowering ... thereby adding to the sink.

For me, it is still VERY much a mind thing when I swim. Nothing is coming automatically yet and I'm constantly reminding myself (as is my coach) to make minor corrections in the parts that add up to my overall form. Without exception, every time I make a correction, my form improves and the breathing becomes easier.

I'm a lifelong runner and have learned that gains come from pushing myself during VO2 and LT workouts. If I'm breathing hard and close to puking at the end of a workout, I'll reap the rewards over the next few weeks with faster paces at a lower HR.

This is the opposite of how I make gains in my swimming. I have to relax in the water and focus on FORM to make my swim easier  ... more efficient ... and, ultimately faster. In short, I have to slow down to speed up. 

2011-11-30 10:18 AM
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Master
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Subject: RE: Sinking while exhaling

I am new to swim training myself, but the total immersion (TI) series has helped me a lot to understand correct body positioning. You can buy the book (I did), but you can also find a lot of info on you tube. Concentrate on those videos showing: (1) the right head position: most untrained swimmers, myself included, tend to hold their head too high and makes their legs and hips sink. Try to look straight down while you swim; (2) Pushing the water: this is more complicated, and you need to look at a video to understand, but basically you are pushing the water down with you upper body and thus making your lower body raise to the surface.

This is the first few steps of TI, so should be able to find it in you tube. I believe drills 1-4 deal with basic body positioning, so maybe look for those on you tube.

 

2011-11-30 10:54 AM
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Subject: RE: Sinking while exhaling

Just keep practicing.  I had this same problem.  People would always say "exhale while your face is in the water..." but as soon as I would exhale, my body started to sink like a rock.  I had to ignore their advice (at the time).   This also happens when I start to get tired (or bored) in the water during my roll.  I will be focusing on the form of my recovery and then my body drops in the water (see quote below).

I very much had to keep every ounce of gas in my lungs to keep from sinking.  I would Expell it all out quickly just before my face left the water to take my next breath.  It was not exasperating in any way and it is just what worked for me.

I have been practicing for a while, and I am not at that spot any more (exept for the occassional sink while my body is rolling...see quote below).  There will come a point in your swim where your forward motion through the water will offset the "sink" factor in the water and it is no longer really a concern...But this takes a little while to get to. 

I know I may catch some flack for this, however I still hold my breath underwater.  I still exhale everything at the brink of pulling my face out of the water for the next breath...This isn't for the sink, (which I don't notice anymore) but because I find that it helps clear any water from around my mouth/nose when I take a breath in.  It prevents water from getting in my sinuses.

People may make assumptions about my swimming based on what I say.  I think I am a pretty good swimmer...not amazing...but just for reference, I swim a 1:40/100m at a distance pace and can swim 1:30/100m when I push hard.  I have swum 2.46 miles in 1 hour 21 minutes.

http://triathlontrainingupdates-shaun.blogspot.com/2011/09/9152011-24-mile-swim-in-pine-lake.html

 

As has already been mentioned, I suspect your lead arm to be the major culprit. If that falls as you turn to breath, your body is going to be sinking. Prior to that, though, focus on lowering your chin as you look down to the bottom of the pool. If I raise my head, even slightly, my hips compensate by lowering ... thereby adding to the sink.

--This is exactly the issue for me.  I have to make a lot of effort to keep my chin down...Just to the point where water tries entering my nose.  I have to concentrate on keeping the top of my head going forward, not my forehead...I do also notice my head "sinking" when my arm drops. 

Just ramblings from someone who had the same issue.

 

 

 

 

 

 



Edited by lifejustice 2011-11-30 11:05 AM
2011-11-30 12:59 PM
in reply to: #3919984


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Subject: RE: Sinking while exhaling

When people "sink" in the water when swimming, it usually means that they start to drop from horizontal and their hips and legs sink.   Given the anatomical placement of the lungsl, I can't see how having a lung full of air will help with keep you flat in the water. If you are talking pure bouyancy and the ability to submerge the entire body, exhaling will indeed make that a bit easier.  From the standpoint of freestyle swimming, I don't think it would matter much.

2011-11-30 1:33 PM
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Subject: RE: Sinking while exhaling
nickwisconsin - 2011-11-30 10:59 AM

When people "sink" in the water when swimming, it usually means that they start to drop from horizontal and their hips and legs sink.   Given the anatomical placement of the lungsl, I can't see how having a lung full of air will help with keep you flat in the water. If you are talking pure bouyancy and the ability to submerge the entire body, exhaling will indeed make that a bit easier.  From the standpoint of freestyle swimming, I don't think it would matter much.

I don't know about the OP, but my issue was never my about legs/hips sinking (isolated).  It is a very clear bouyancy sink in the chest/midsection that I experienced and it was very reproducable from breath to (lack of)breath.  My body would continue being horizontal, however I would sink in the water as I exhaled.  I thought it was normal and accepted it as such.  It was as obvious as night and day. 

Here is a blog post where I wrote about it.  (Please note the date and my experience has changed a great deal since it was written.  That is why I write...so I can learn...and I have)  :D

http://triathlontrainingupdates-shaun.blogspot.com/2011/02/2142011-swim.html

I also mention it in a few other posts (3/31, 5/12). It is obvious enough to make note of it and adjust my stroke in order to compensate for it.

I wanted to swim like people suggest (exhaling while under).   I would swim 200m breathing out, and as I did so, my body would sink.  Not my legs, but everything would sink lower into the water.  There wasn't any change in body dynamics...just depth in water.  I swim another 200m holding my breath, and I would be "bobbing" right at the top of the water, with no position change.

 Again, I don't think it is an issue to me at this point any longer...however there was a point in which there *was* a very clear "sinking" vs "bobbing" in my swim. 

 Edited to add:

I am now working on dribbling air out of my nose.  I am focusing on "leading" with the very top of my head.  When I do this, water tries going in my nose.  I am dribbling air out to prevent this and to make sure that my breathing is as people say it should be.

 

 



Edited by lifejustice 2011-11-30 1:50 PM


2011-11-30 2:02 PM
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Subject: RE: Sinking while exhaling

I believe in sinkers or rather those of us who float just a few inches below the surface :-)

However while not an expert this is my understanding of the physics of swimming. I swim through the surface of the water because I am propelling myself forward using my kick and such. This forward motion keeps your body up (if your form is good).

If your chin is tucked when you roll to breathe the air pocket is created by displacement of your body in front of you. Remember you're moving forward - so your head is pushing water out of the way. So unless the top of your head is under totally underwater (which is not the form you're looking for)then you should be able to breathe.

I would post a picture but I can't figure out how. Nonetheless look at a picture of somebody swimming and you'll see that you can't even see the bottom of their mouth because it's below the water line. The displacement from your head/shoulders creates a little air pocket where you breathe.

You can practice this by doing those sideways floating drills where you put one arm forward face in water and kick then roll to breathe and go back ... I forget what they are called.

In conclusion my totally uneducated guess of advice is, tuck your chin, roll more, and kick.

2011-11-30 2:13 PM
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Subject: RE: Sinking while exhaling
As others have mentioned, it sounds like a form problem. But realistically, that's about where the discussion ends without being able to see your stroke and position. If we could see a video, we might be able to help. Short of that, get some coaching.
2011-11-30 2:41 PM
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2011-11-30 2:45 PM
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Subject: RE: Sinking while exhaling
lifejustice - 2011-11-30 1:33 PM
nickwisconsin - 2011-11-30 10:59 AM

When people "sink" in the water when swimming, it usually means that they start to drop from horizontal and their hips and legs sink.   Given the anatomical placement of the lungsl, I can't see how having a lung full of air will help with keep you flat in the water. If you are talking pure bouyancy and the ability to submerge the entire body, exhaling will indeed make that a bit easier.  From the standpoint of freestyle swimming, I don't think it would matter much.

I don't know about the OP, but my issue was never my about legs/hips sinking (isolated).  It is a very clear bouyancy sink in the chest/midsection that I experienced and it was very reproducable from breath to (lack of)breath.  My body would continue being horizontal, however I would sink in the water as I exhaled.  I thought it was normal and accepted it as such.  It was as obvious as night and day. 

Here is a blog post where I wrote about it.  (Please note the date and my experience has changed a great deal since it was written.  That is why I write...so I can learn...and I have)  :D

http://triathlontrainingupdates-shaun.blogspot.com/2011/02/2142011-swim.html

I also mention it in a few other posts (3/31, 5/12). It is obvious enough to make note of it and adjust my stroke in order to compensate for it.

I wanted to swim like people suggest (exhaling while under).   I would swim 200m breathing out, and as I did so, my body would sink.  Not my legs, but everything would sink lower into the water.  There wasn't any change in body dynamics...just depth in water.  I swim another 200m holding my breath, and I would be "bobbing" right at the top of the water, with no position change.

 Again, I don't think it is an issue to me at this point any longer...however there was a point in which there *was* a very clear "sinking" vs "bobbing" in my swim. 

 Edited to add:

I am now working on dribbling air out of my nose.  I am focusing on "leading" with the very top of my head.  When I do this, water tries going in my nose.  I am dribbling air out to prevent this and to make sure that my breathing is as people say it should be.

 

 

 

What does your coach say about it? Sometimes what we perceive and what is actually happening are two different things.  When you say you sink - you mean that your upper body sits lower in the water than you would expect, or you literally become a submarine and "dive"?

2011-11-30 2:49 PM
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Subject: RE: Sinking while exhaling
Are you kicking your legs during your exhale or are they momentarily not in a kick cycle?  I find that if I am not focusing on my kick - that I have lazy legs...they barely kick, I lose propulsion especially turning to breath...my body starts coming to a stop and I start sinking, waist and legs first.  Lately I have been focusing more on a strong, continuous kick and my 'sinking' has been a lot less during breathes.  Though by 'sinking' it more of my lower half sinking, not so much my torso.


2011-11-30 5:07 PM
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Subject: RE: Sinking while exhaling

First, your legs do not add propulsion, but they must be engaged. That means the hip joints and knees are not bent. Balance by leaning (slightly) on your ribs and hold your lower half connected with your abs and glutes. The kick is an upbeat that comes from the hip.

Second, tense muscles make you sink, especially tension in the neck and shoulders. Have all the tension you want, but it has be below your chest. Relax your shoulders and press downhill, gently. See above.

Now, breathe comfortably. Do not suck in a bucket or air and spit it out like blowing out candles on a birthday cake. Inhale, hold for a split second and then start exhaling, mostly out your nose. Clear the last bit just as you turn to inhale. If your head is in the correct position, water line bisecting it, there will be air pockets at both cheeks, lower than the surface of the water. Use a HIP roll to find that pocket with a slight (25 degree) turn of your head, keeping your ear in the water. Make sure your leading arm stays extended during this phase. Do NOT lean on that arm. Be the Statue of Liberty when you breathe! See my web site. Send me a video and I can see what you need.

2011-11-30 5:57 PM
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Subject: RE: Sinking while exhaling
I love you guys.  *taking notes*
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