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2011-12-06 6:07 AM
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2011-12-06 11:26 AM
in reply to: #3925592

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Subject: RE: my first swim video (be nice :)) and a few questions

Wow--surprised by where this headed.  Just a couple of notes.  

My advice was based on what I saw in the video.  While there may be other coaching philosophies and approaches out there, I stand by my analysis.  There's plenty of support in both experience and current literature to back up my advice.  It doesn't hurt my feelings if you don't agree with it.  I've worked with tons of athletes who do and are faster for it.

The question wasn't about whether it's better to have a great coach on deck versus using tools like remote video analysis.  When I see someone post a video asking for help breaking it down, it seems safe to assume that this person doesn't have the right resources available to them (or isn't taking advantage of them for whatever reason).  I jumped in to help.

 

 

2011-12-06 2:30 PM
in reply to: #3925592

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Subject: RE: my first swim video (be nice :)) and a few questions

My only advice would be to use the tools in the link below.  The tools are free and they helped me a lot. Like you I started with TI but was never comfortable and I wasn't making any real progress.  Also, no idea how you are but reading instructions from 20 different people usually just confuses me.  I need to be able to see it to emulate it.

 

http://www.swimsmooth.com/ 

2011-12-06 2:46 PM
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Subject: RE: my first swim video (be nice :)) and a few questions
davesheanin - 2011-12-05 2:34 PM

The low elbow recovery issue that many have pointed out is a symptom (not the cause) of your biggest issues.  When you look at the underwater angle, it's clear that you aren't generating any power from your stroke.  While you do need to address your low elbows on recovery, you can do all fingertip drills all the time and it won't correct the problem. 

Watch your elbows as you pull (underwater).  They come down and then pull straight back through the water.  The only part of your arm that's generating any propulsion is the back of your arm.  This is not uncommon and can be corrected--I've seen many, many beginners swim this way.  It's relatively easy to swim like this--you may even feel somewhat comfortable and relaxed.  Your arms are taking the path of least resistance through the water.  The problem with this is that you want your arms to get anchored in the water so you can pull/push your body forward.

When your hand enters the water, extend your arm forward and keep your shoulder rotated inward so that your elbow is pointing up.  (It won't be pointing straight up for most folks, but it should be angled toward the surface.)  When you start to pull, try to hold your elbow in place as you drop your hand and forearm down toward the bottom of the pool.  This position will feel awkward at first--here's a dryland scenario that is similar: If you're standing on one side of a large desk and are trying to reach an object that's sitting on a chair on the other side of the desk--think about how you'd reach for it.  You'd lean over the desk with your arm extended forward and elbow up.  Your hand would reach down for the object but you couldn't drop your elbow (because the desk would be in the way).  If you try this at your desk, pay attention to the inward rotation of your shoulder (kinda like you're shrugging/hunching) and the direction your elbow is pointing (upward).  

From that position (in the water), you'll be able to get your hand and forearm set in the water in order to propel yourself with power--always keeping your elbow high.  Once you have that position figured out, you can work on the rest of the issues.  But just fixing that single issue will give you more power, more time to breathe, and correct a number of other issues in your stroke.

If you're interested in a full analysis, I do remote video analysis.  I'd need to see some additional angles to give you a full breakdown.

Good luck!

 

It's funny you mention this, because after fixing the big problems with my position and recovery/entry, although swimming was a lot EASIER, I wasn't going any faster.  (After a year of steady training with those problems fixed.)  Last month my friend (Lifeguard and 1:05ish Ironman swimmer) was watching me and had me correct that very problem.  At first my back and shoulders were killing me because I was working them a lot more, but they have just started adapting and I set two PRs in the pool last week, including a whopping 13 seconds off my 300 yard time.

Now if only my ridiculous kick could be fixed.  I blame over a decade of kick from the knee in martial arts and my ridiculously stiff and inflexible runner's ankles/feet.

2011-12-06 2:56 PM
in reply to: #3928548

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Subject: RE: my first swim video (be nice :)) and a few questions
PinkPrincess - 2011-12-06 1:46 PM
 (After a year of steady training with those problems fixed.)  Last month my friend (Lifeguard and 1:05ish Ironman swimmer) was watching me and had me correct that very problem.  At first my back and shoulders were killing me because I was working them a lot more, but they have just started adapting and I set two PRs in the pool last week, including a whopping 13 seconds off my 300 yard time.

Now if only my ridiculous kick could be fixed.  I blame over a decade of kick from the knee in martial arts and my ridiculously stiff and inflexible runner's ankles/feet.



I think what's really significant about your experience is that you fixed fundamentals first. Prior to that, when swimming wasn't feeling "easier" as you describe it, what effect do you think working even harder would have had?
2011-12-06 4:02 PM
in reply to: #3925592

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Subject: RE: my first swim video (be nice :)) and a few questions

Great advice from everyone here. Despite the seemingly different pieces of advice, in reading them, they all are valid, I think.

 

Just for my 2 cents for the OP - if you want to get a feel for that 'early vertical forearm' catch, a $10-$15 elastic resistance cable that has a door mount (just a piece of nylon that wedges in the doorcrack) is very good for both getting a feel for what it is as well as building up the strength so you can apply it in the pool. You can really focus on getting that forearm early with these cables, without worrying about the rest of your body to confound the motion. It's a very good supplement to swimming, especially because it isolates this crucial motion so you can really pattern it into your form - and doesn't take much time at all since you don't even need to be at the pool.

 

Good videos on these cables on youtube by Coach Troy and a few other folks who recommend them, and they are also used by competitive swimmers as part of dryland training. Won't substitute for pool time, but it's great for reinforcing that EVF and at least for me, translates directly to the pool.



2011-12-07 8:32 AM
in reply to: #3928719


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Subject: RE: my first swim video (be nice :)) and a few questions
agarose2000 - 2011-12-06 5:02 PM

Great advice from everyone here. Despite the seemingly different pieces of advice, in reading them, they all are valid, I think.

 

Just for my 2 cents for the OP - if you want to get a feel for that 'early vertical forearm' catch, a $10-$15 elastic resistance cable that has a door mount (just a piece of nylon that wedges in the doorcrack) is very good for both getting a feel for what it is as well as building up the strength so you can apply it in the pool. You can really focus on getting that forearm early with these cables, without worrying about the rest of your body to confound the motion. It's a very good supplement to swimming, especially because it isolates this crucial motion so you can really pattern it into your form - and doesn't take much time at all since you don't even need to be at the pool.

 

Good videos on these cables on youtube by Coach Troy and a few other folks who recommend them, and they are also used by competitive swimmers as part of dryland training. Won't substitute for pool time, but it's great for reinforcing that EVF and at least for me, translates directly to the pool.

 

very solid advice.... and I might add, do after practice when you're tired b/c the bands don't allow you to cheat during your 'stroke.'

2011-12-07 9:19 AM
in reply to: #3926017

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Subject: RE: my first swim video (be nice :)) and a few questions

DigitalRain - 2011-12-04 11:18 PM Just wanted to know cause I didn't see it in your video. Are you starting off your lap with a streamline? Just doing a good streamline knocks off seconds off your time and you can cover  10 -15 yards by doing one. Don't know if that's important to you at this point though.

Yes-ish....but I'm also not too worried about it because I'll be doing races with open water swims. So it's not a practical concern.

2011-12-07 9:34 AM
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Subject: RE: my first swim video (be nice :)) and a few questions
runk8run - 2011-12-07 11:19 AM

DigitalRain - 2011-12-04 11:18 PM Just wanted to know cause I didn't see it in your video. Are you starting off your lap with a streamline? Just doing a good streamline knocks off seconds off your time and you can cover  10 -15 yards by doing one. Don't know if that's important to you at this point though.

Yes-ish....but I'm also not too worried about it because I'll be doing races with open water swims. So it's not a practical concern.

Maybe not practical in improving your stroke but I think it has value in your ability to "feel" the water.  When you push off in a streamlined position, that is about as fast as you will ever move in the water (unless you dive).  That gives your body a chance to feel what it's like to move through the water fast.   It may be a (very) minor point but I think it has value.

2011-12-08 12:19 PM
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Subject: RE: my first swim video (be nice :)) and a few questions

I agree with a lot of the responses regarding things that you need to work on. That being said, I really think it would be worth spending a few bucks now to get some coaching. I had 6 lessons for a little over a $100 this last year, and it paid off hugely.  It is not to say you can't do it alone, but in terms of efficiency of getting the results, I think you will come out ahead.

My approach was to look at youtube, swimsmooth, and do total immersion videos until I was comfortable enough in the water to actually make lessons worthwhile.  You already look comfortable - just need some changes before bad habits become ingrained. Good luck with whatever you decide.

By the way, what camera did you use to film?

 



Edited by nickwisconsin 2011-12-08 12:20 PM
2011-12-09 3:39 PM
in reply to: #3931261

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Subject: RE: my first swim video (be nice :)) and a few questions
nickwisconsin - 2011-12-08 1:19 PM

I agree with a lot of the responses regarding things that you need to work on. That being said, I really think it would be worth spending a few bucks now to get some coaching. I had 6 lessons for a little over a $100 this last year, and it paid off hugely.  It is not to say you can't do it alone, but in terms of efficiency of getting the results, I think you will come out ahead.

My approach was to look at youtube, swimsmooth, and do total immersion videos until I was comfortable enough in the water to actually make lessons worthwhile.  You already look comfortable - just need some changes before bad habits become ingrained. Good luck with whatever you decide.

By the way, what camera did you use to film?

 

Wow, that's a good deal for coaching!!!

I'll look at my ability to "spend (more than) a few bucks" after Christmas. Right now, it's not feasible.

I'm super comfortable in the water. I can swim for an hour, probably more, without stopping. Guess I've got that going for me!

The camera is an Olympus Stylus Tough 6020. It's a digital camera with video capability. Takes really good still pics too. I got the underwater shots by turning the video on and then setting it on the bottom of the pool.



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