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2012-03-26 7:49 PM

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Subject: I can't run slow

Ok - that's not totally true....I am a slow runner.  The problem is, on days where I am supposed to run @ an RPE 3 - I can't!  

My normal run pace is anywhere between an 8:00 and 9:00 min mile.  Usually start out my runs closer to 8:00 mins...then taper off around 8:35 to 8:45 - and hold that pace.  if there are hills thrown in, I end up around the 9:00 min mark.  I never feel winded or overly exerted.  

My goal is to run the marathon @ a 10 min pace or better.  (is that realistic?). 

My question(s) are: 

1) Since my training plan is based on time, and not distance - is it ok to just continue to run at this pace for all the workouts, and try to build my endurance at this pace?

2) Should I force myself to slow down to a 10:00 min pace on RPE 2-3 days? Is there a reason for this?  Does slowing down on some days help gain endurance in the long run?

Thanks



2012-03-26 7:58 PM
in reply to: #4114383

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Subject: RE: I can't run slow

How often and how long are your running.  How many miles (or minutes/hours since you're time based) are you running per week and how long have you been doing so?

If I'm running 2-3x per week, and 3-4 miles per run, sure...I can run pretty quickly at a low effort.

If I'm running 5-6x per week, and about 6-7 miles per run...then my overall pace at the same low effort starts to drop.  Hence it becomes "easier" to run slower at an RPE 2-3 level.

2012-03-26 8:33 PM
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Subject: RE: I can't run slow

I'd bet you don't have enough volume. If you're under 20 miles per week, anything RPE3 will feel ridiculously easy unless you're a raw beginner. 

 

Crank it up to 40, 50, 70mpw, and you'll embrace slow running! (There won't be any other option, actually, as you'll be running on 'dead legs' a lot at the higher mileages.)

2012-03-26 8:55 PM
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Subject: RE: I can't run slow

Maybe not running enough is the problem.  I am running 3 days per week - 45 mins, 45 mins - then 60 mins.  I typically run about 5 miles on the 45 min runs and 7 - 7.5 miles on the 60 min runs. 

I am doing these runs in addition to swimming and biking.  I am however at the beginning of the Couch to Ironman 20 week free plan.  I want to run more - push my body harder - but have forced myself to stick to the scheduled times, as I trust those that are wiser than I.    

My main question / concern is about the importance of running even slower.  Is it a must that I have easy days - or can I maintain my general pace, but build time @ that pace - and will that strategy be beneficial?  Or should I force myself to take it easy on those days that say to do so?

2012-03-26 9:04 PM
in reply to: #4114383

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Subject: RE: I can't run slow

Couch to Ironman in 20weeks?

This seems unrealistic to me.

I did couch to halfM in 31weeks and that was really pushing it (coming really from the couch (no excersize in decades, BMI of 30.62))

2012-03-26 9:26 PM
in reply to: #4114464

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Subject: RE: I can't run slow
Muskrat37 - 2012-03-26 3:55 PM

Maybe not running enough is the problem.  I am running 3 days per week - 45 mins, 45 mins - then 60 mins.  I typically run about 5 miles on the 45 min runs and 7 - 7.5 miles on the 60 min runs. 

I am doing these runs in addition to swimming and biking.  I am however at the beginning of the Couch to Ironman 20 week free plan.  I want to run more - push my body harder - but have forced myself to stick to the scheduled times, as I trust those that are wiser than I.    

My main question / concern is about the importance of running even slower.  Is it a must that I have easy days - or can I maintain my general pace, but build time @ that pace - and will that strategy be beneficial?  Or should I force myself to take it easy on those days that say to do so?

If your running 17ish mpw in 2.5 hours...I would necessarily categorize you as off the couch.  But a couch to IM plan does sound a bit ridiculous.

Anyway...back to your main question...

As some wiser people have said before...don't worry about slow or fast.  Worry about effort...easy or hard.  As mentioned before..."easy" can be done at very different paces depending on how fatigued you are.  Running easy will allow you to complete your other workouts and prevent injury. 

From my experience...running easy can vary a great amount in pace.  Sometimes a 10:30 pace feels easy...sometimes it's a 8:45 pace.  You're going to hit peaks and valleys throughout your training cycle...so don't get too hung up on slow or fast.



2012-03-26 11:30 PM
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Subject: RE: I can't run slow

 

If your running 17ish mpw in 2.5 hours...I would necessarily categorize you as off the couch.  But a couch to IM plan does sound a bit ridiculous.

Anyway...back to your main question...

As some wiser people have said before...don't worry about slow or fast.  Worry about effort...easy or hard.  As mentioned before..."easy" can be done at very different paces depending on how fatigued you are.  Running easy will allow you to complete your other workouts and prevent injury. 

From my experience...running easy can vary a great amount in pace.  Sometimes a 10:30 pace feels easy...sometimes it's a 8:45 pace.  You're going to hit peaks and valleys throughout your training cycle...so don't get too hung up on slow or fast.

"Couch to Ironman" is just the name of the training program on this site.  I grew up a competitive swimmer, and was also a competitive cyclist.  I can swim 2.5 miles today - and feel fine tomorrow. I am in pretty good shape, but I know that my goal is aggressive.  I love a good challenge though.    I am not trying to win my first Ironman - I just want to finish in a respectable time.  

Thanks for clarifying on the time / distance / pace question.  I suppose I will stick with just running based on how I feel, and not worry so much about forcing myself to slow down on "slow days".  

Thanks again.

2012-03-26 11:38 PM
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Subject: RE: I can't run slow
Muskrat37 - 2012-03-26 9:30 PM

....  I love a good challenge though.    I am not trying to win my first Ironman - I just want to finish in a respectable time.

The challenge is in the dedication of getting out there every day and training... day after day after day.   But there's a limit to how quickly your body can possibly adapt.  Some have the physiology to do it, others not.  The reality is, is that you cannot just 'work harder' or 'train more' in order to get there.  There's a limit to the training load your body will be able to tolerate.  Loving a good challenge is one thing.  Putting your heart in to training, ramping up the mileage and hours quickly and getting injured such that you don't make the starting line is more likely.

I'd say that for a solid IM performance- it's a 3 year process.  Heck- just to get all your gear together will take 2 years.

2012-03-26 11:40 PM
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Subject: RE: I can't run slow
Wish I had this problem! I think that when you get closer to "Ironman", and farther from "couch", you will naturally slow down a lot as you'll be running on tired legs. I'm pretty sure I could run a marathon at 8-minute pace or better (half at about 7 flat) and my easy runs are NEVER under 8 min/mile, sometimes closer to 9 or even 10.  That's what bike training does to your legs. I don't even run that much mileage--maybe 30-32 miles a week max when doing tri training, 40-50 for HM run focus. I would slow down a little and build endurance. I think 10 min/mile for an open marathon is realistic, maybe even a bit conservative, IF you build endurance to go the distance. If you meant the IM marathon, I wouldn't know as I haven't done an IM. Personally, I wouldn't care about pace for that, as long as I didn't start too fast and had enough in the tank to finish!

Edited by Hot Runner 2012-03-26 11:46 PM
2012-03-27 1:13 AM
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Subject: RE: I can't run slow

If you aren't an experienced runner and you are talking about a pace goal for your IM marathon (rather than for an open marathon), I'd let the time goals go.  I went into my first IM (admittedly with a pulled hamstring) as a 3:40 open marathoner and came out of it with a 5:30 run (which included limping the last 9.9 miles).  And my second IM run...basically healthy at the start of the day...was even slower (with even more walking...plus nausea).

2012-03-27 6:13 AM
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Subject: RE: I can't run slow
Running by RPE can be initially difficult to dial in, but once you do it can be a very good metric. What are your race times (open 5k, open 10k, etc.)? That should give you some initial indication of whether an 8~9 minute pace is "too fast" or "too slow."


2012-03-27 10:44 AM
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Subject: RE: I can't run slow

TankBoy - 2012-03-27 4:13 AM Running by RPE can be initially difficult to dial in, but once you do it can be a very good metric. What are your race times (open 5k, open 10k, etc.)? That should give you some initial indication of whether an 8~9 minute pace is "too fast" or "too slow."

10K - 47 mins

Have never run a 5K

1/2 Marathon - 2 hrs 4 mins....but was very, very dissappointed in this.  I hurt my Achilles Tendon @ around mile 9.  I was running sub 9 mins until that point -then went to almost an 11 min mile for the last 4 miles.  No injury - I would have finished closer to 1:45 in the 1/2.  

I usually start out pretty fast - then settle in @ a comfortable pace.  

Thank you all for the feedback.  I realize that my Ironman goal may be viewed as crazy by some.  I do have the time (I build websites out of my house) for training - and 2 workouts a day with Saturday's off is a very doable for me.  The biggest concern I have is affording the gear.

2012-03-27 11:31 AM
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Subject: RE: I can't run slow

Can you tell us why you are wanting to rush your IM training?

Having asked that, easy runs should be very very very easy. But I've found it is hard to run easy without a decent base (>20-25mpw for 8-10 weeks). You have to go slow enough that your body is mainly utilizing fat for energy. Easy pace for me is slow enough that I am not breathing hard and basically just floating along not worrying about a thing. Best explanation I've heard is that you should feel like you could have completed your workout twice after you're done.

If you're having trouble holding an easy pace, get a heart rate monitor with an alarm and set it at about 80% of your maximum heartrate. When it beeps, slow down or walk until you're back under control. I've done this since December and my low HR pace went from around 11:30/mi to now around 8:00/mi. I now try and stick to 9:00-9:30/mi and my HR is even lower.

The reasons for the slow pace are to:

teach your muscle to use fat for fuel

build cardiovascular endurance

keep you from being too banged up for other workouts

get you used to your IM pace

let you get in lots of miles at a low stress

2012-03-27 12:19 PM
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Subject: RE: I can't run slow
???

ok, no sugar coating... don't worry... if you start at that pace off the bike in an IM your body will force you to run slow... as in walk or limp or DNF.

on your hard ride days (4-6 hour days) get off and run 30 min... see what your pace is.  Depending on where your event is held you are probably going to be a 11-12 min mile guy/girl. Why not start at 11:30 and gauge yourself every mile or 2 or 3?

IMO you should run 'slower' on pace training days. I put slower in quotes because you are not really running slower... you are running at IM marathon pace. Which in essence is slower than EVERY OTHER RUN  you will do in your life. I don't know you or your training but after 115 miles of swim and bike at RACE PACE the odds of you running a sub 10 min mile is slim. 14.9% of people at Placid ran a sub 4 hour marathon... yes Placid is hilly but like I said I don't know your venue.

If your normal pace is 8-9 I do not see how you feel you can run an IM marathon at 80-90% your normal run pace. The run is 18.5% of the race distance but will account  for 40% of your total time. And if you had the experience or fitness to do so you would not be asking this question in this forum.

train for the race you are going to run... don't train with your ego. Don't worry about people saying "You train slow." My coach spends a lot of time with us on this. You are going to train long hours, pay a lot of money to enter... why not have a fun experience along with it? Coach told me yesterday that he trains us like he does because he wants to see us smiling at the start of loop 2 in Placid this year, not agonzing and wanting it to be over.

Run your race... train your pace. Your gait is a lot different at 10:30-11:30 than it is at 8-9. That is why you need to pace train. It's boring, yes. But you will be grateful you did. Please, I am not expert so if you prove me wrong then let me know. I will be the first to congradulate you and give you a virtual high five.

I got too big for my britches in my first half and bonked at mile 7. I felt good so I picked up my pace 1:30  a mile to 9min...then walked/jogged the last 6 at 14min.

2012-03-27 12:29 PM
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Subject: RE: I can't run slow
Muskrat37 - 2012-03-26 8:49 PM

Usually start out my runs closer to 8:00 mins...then taper off around 8:35 to 8:45 - and hold that pace.  

Will let you figure out the IM and other stuff.  But one piece of advice.  On most of your runs, start out at 8:35-8:45 or slower.  Finish at 8:00.  You can use whatever paces work for you (I just picked the numbers you used), but starting fast and 'settling in' is not a great training method--often not a great racing strategy either, but that depends a bit more.  Better to start easy and force yourself to work harder as fatigue builds.  Building into the run and then fast finishes are generally the way to go.

2012-03-27 12:32 PM
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Subject: RE: I can't run slow

You know the phrase 'it's not a sprint, it's a marathon?'

try this - it's not a sprint, it's not a marathon, it's not even a marathon plus some other stuff. It's an IRONMAN, and it's the most physically demanding thing you can do with your body, period.

Finishing is an incredible feat on its own.



2012-03-27 12:45 PM
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Subject: RE: I can't run slow
fisherman76 - 2012-03-27 1:32 PM

You know the phrase 'it's not a sprint, it's a marathon?'

try this - it's not a sprint, it's not a marathon, it's not even a marathon plus some other stuff. It's an IRONMAN, and it's the most physically demanding thing you can do with your body, period.

Finishing is an incredible feat on its own.

Except for maybe a double ironmanWink

2012-03-27 12:46 PM
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Subject: RE: I can't run slow
BooTri - 2012-03-27 10:19 AM ???

ok, no sugar coating... don't worry... if you start at that pace off the bike in an IM your body will force you to run slow... as in walk or limp or DNF.

on your hard ride days (4-6 hour days) get off and run 30 min... see what your pace is.  Depending on where your event is held you are probably going to be a 11-12 min mile guy/girl. Why not start at 11:30 and gauge yourself every mile or 2 or 3?


Good information...I think my main issue is with lack of experience.  I have yet to do a brick - and haven't really pushed myself - as I am at the beginning of the "Beginner Ironman - 20 week" program.  

I will take your advice - and do a ride - followed by a run.  Will start fairly small and work my way up.  

2012-03-27 12:51 PM
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Subject: RE: I can't run slow
2012-03-27 12:51 PM
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Subject: RE: I can't run slow
beebs - 2012-03-27 9:31 AM

Can you tell us why you are wanting to rush your IM training?

Having asked that, easy runs should be very very very easy. But I've found it is hard to run easy without a decent base (>20-25mpw for 8-10 weeks). You have to go slow enough that your body is mainly utilizing fat for energy. Easy pace for me is slow enough that I am not breathing hard and basically just floating along not worrying about a thing. Best explanation I've heard is that you should feel like you could have completed your workout twice after you're done.

If you're having trouble holding an easy pace, get a heart rate monitor with an alarm and set it at about 80% of your maximum heartrate. When it beeps, slow down or walk until you're back under control. I've done this since December and my low HR pace went from around 11:30/mi to now around 8:00/mi. I now try and stick to 9:00-9:30/mi and my HR is even lower.

The reasons for the slow pace are to:

teach your muscle to use fat for fuel

build cardiovascular endurance

keep you from being too banged up for other workouts

get you used to your IM pace

let you get in lots of miles at a low stress

I fail to understand why I am "rushing" to an Ironman.  I thought I was taking my time.    I am a great swimmer - I have a lot of endurance - I am in pretty good shape and I am following a plan that is called "Beginner Ironman - 20 week"  (My bad calling it Couch to Ironman - not sure where I came up with that).  

Isn't the idea of the "Beginner Ironman - 20 week" training program to prepare you to compete in and complete an Ironman in 20 weeks? I am 40 years old - and my goal is not to win, I just want to finish in a respectable time.  

Aside from that - thank you for the advice.  All of it helps.  I acknowledge my ignorance in training for an Ironman - but that is why I chose the "Beginner" program.    

2012-03-27 1:02 PM
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Subject: RE: I can't run slow
Nah it's cool. I'm not trying to be critical. I know everyone has their own goals and reasons. Truth is though, beginner and ironman don't really belong in the same sentence, so don't be mislead. It will be hard, but you seem to be a tough guy so I'm sure you'll make it work. Just make your focus on endurance and volume since you haven't had a couple of years to build up a big base. Working on speed should be the last thing on your mind because if you go out too fast and crash, you'll easily add a few hours to your time. You'll have to be like the tortoise. Slow and steady wins the race. No amount of speedwork will increase your ability to keep going in a marathon if you've bonked, but endurance work will keep you from bonking.


2012-03-27 7:12 PM
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Subject: RE: I can't run slow
Took me a couple years and getting to 80-100km a week to 'run slow', and I run slow (4:18 marathon). For running slow to feel right, you have to run hard on other days. If I run hard or long one day I will run slow the next day. I found it tough to run hard when I had less mileage in my legs. Therefore, all my runs were the same pace.
2012-03-27 7:56 PM
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Subject: RE: I can't run slow
I found a solution - THE TREADMILL!    
2012-03-27 7:57 PM
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Subject: RE: I can't run slow

BigDH - 2012-03-27 5:12 PM Took me a couple years and getting to 80-100km a week to 'run slow', and I run slow (4:18 marathon). For running slow to feel right, you have to run hard on other days. If I run hard or long one day I will run slow the next day. I found it tough to run hard when I had less mileage in my legs. Therefore, all my runs were the same pace.

I am starting to see that it is probably exactly what you described...just not running enough yet.  I have a feeling that as I ramp up my training, I will not have as hard a time at running slower on "slow" days.  LOL

2012-03-27 9:11 PM
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Subject: RE: I can't run slow
Muskrat37 - 2012-03-27 12:51 PM

I fail to understand why I am "rushing" to an Ironman.  I thought I was taking my time.    I am a great swimmer - I have a lot of endurance - I am in pretty good shape and I am following a plan that is called "Beginner Ironman - 20 week"  (My bad calling it Couch to Ironman - not sure where I came up with that).  

Isn't the idea of the "Beginner Ironman - 20 week" training program to prepare you to compete in and complete an Ironman in 20 weeks? I am 40 years old - and my goal is not to win, I just want to finish in a respectable time.  

Aside from that - thank you for the advice.  All of it helps.  I acknowledge my ignorance in training for an Ironman - but that is why I chose the "Beginner" program.    

You're going fast, but if you really do 2x/day for 20 weeks you will probably be fine. I did it in 24 (w/ wedding and honeymoon in weeks 18-21) last year, and if you dig around the older posts there are lots of people who ask if they can do it and are met with a similar response. If you feel you can do it, you're already on your way. Follow the training and IMO you will hit your goal. I don't like running slow in training and it hurt me this year. Maybe I'll do better in my training next time.Good luck!
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