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2012-05-21 2:00 PM

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Subject: Correcting swim form - what has worked for you?
I've been spending quite a bit of time on my swim form. I had been critiqued in the past, even filmed u/w, and all evaluators said that my one-sided breathingwas causing my (non breathing side) arm was to no catching the same water as my breathing arm.

But correcting this?

So I started doing catching up drills with focus on that side. Then I forced myself to do more breathing on both sides. I dont know why, but I found breathing from both sides really really hard to do. I felt like I needed a breath right away, but I also felt this was in my mind. My body simply did not want to change form. I even exaggerated the motion of that arm. It s*cked. But slowly....

My last few OWS I now seem to be covering the same distance, but in less time. But I would admit the "weak arm" is getting a bit of a workout as I catch more water.

We'll see the next time I do a timed event. But for now, this is a novelty, can't wait for my next swim.

What specific drills have worked for you.


2012-05-21 2:11 PM
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Subject: RE: Correcting swim form - what has worked for you?

The thing that helped me most was doing single arm drills, which force you to breathe on the side you're pulling on.  It can be very awkward & uncomfortable at first, but it will eventually become more comfortable with practice.

Good luck,

Mark

 

2012-05-21 2:19 PM
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Subject: RE: Correcting swim form - what has worked for you?

Best thing I ever got to do was swim on a bungie over a huge mirror.  I could real time see what was going on and try different tweaks.  It was nice too b/c as my stroke got more efficient I would flex the bungie more and move further up the mirror (there were lines to see this.)  For me it was invaluable to be able to see my stroke and try fixes at the same time.  I'm not sure where you would find a set up like this outside of a competitive swim program. 

 

I find the fist drill helps me focus when my arms are doing different things.

2012-05-21 2:20 PM
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Subject: RE: Correcting swim form - what has worked for you?
I curse my coach whenever he assigns one-arm drills. But they're the drills that have allowed me to completely transition to bilateral breathing. Start with keeping the non-used arm to your side. Once you have those down (they're more difficult) alternate the drill by keeping your non-used arm out front, focusing on keeping it up as you roll to breathe.

Aside from those drills, I finally just had to acknowledge that my one-sided breathing was holding me back. I didn't want to sacrifice the workout to work on bilateral breathing. After a particularly hard set one day, my coach complimented me on the set and then simply stated "your breathing is holding you back". So I sucked it up and spent a couple of weeks forcing myself to breathe every 3. I still resort to every 2 when I reach an anaerobic state of a particularly hard set, but my speed suffers now when I don't maintain the balance of an every-3 breathe pattern.

It took me about two weeks of forcing myself before I moved beyond the discomfort. It still doesn't feel as natural to my left as it does to my right, but I've definitely moved past the mental block I had. 
2012-05-21 2:45 PM
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Subject: RE: Correcting swim form - what has worked for you?

Attending a Masters Swim or group swims with a coach has helped me the most. When I started my form was screwed up like a box of rocks (probably isn't much better now). I had a lot of areas that needed attention: I was cutting my strokes short, open hands, nearly straight arm catch, unbalanced, bent legs, rotating too far to breath, head snaked side to side, etc.

In addition to patience and practice, having someone there to assist me each session payed off huge. I now feel a lot more efficient, take less strokes per 100, am getting consistant w/ set repeats, and feel more relaxed. It's an awesome feeling when I can feel myself flowing through the water, rather than fight it. I still have a ways to go and areas to improve on, but I feel as if I'm on the right course.

2012-05-21 4:00 PM
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Subject: RE: Correcting swim form - what has worked for you?

JohnP_NY - 2012-05-21 9:00 PM

What specific drills have worked for you.

Practice breathing every 3, 5, 7, 9 .. 11 to build up lung capacity. You can do a set of say 8x25 on the first breathe every 3, then every 5 etc. up to 9, repeat. After the flip turn, practice kicking/gliding under water beyond the 5m then take 3 strokes before the first breath.

If you breathe out you'll feel you need to breath again instantly. So, when you do more strokes per breath, hold it on the first stroke(s). So you can count 1 hold - 2 out - 3 in. 

Hyperventilate and try to do one lap without breathing. Try both freestyle without breathing as well as breast stroke under water. I love my 8x25m underwater at the end of the workout, it's really relaxing when focus is off speed and on gliding. One of the tricks to underwater sets is to breathe out just before getting up - sounds strange, but I've found some times I'd try to keep the air because I need it, and then there's no room to breathe in when I really need it.

If you hyperventilate you may feel dizzy, also, people may think you know what you're doing and not watch out for you, in particular if you swim u.w. So, be careful, don't go farther than you're certain you can. 

BR, Erik



2012-05-21 4:41 PM
in reply to: #4221010


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Subject: RE: Correcting swim form - what has worked for you?

Honestly?  Stop doing drills and swim.  Sets of 50s, 100s, and the occasional 200.  Volume, volume, and then. . . . . more volume.

 

2012-05-21 4:54 PM
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Subject: RE: Correcting swim form - what has worked for you?
Several lessons one on one with a certified coach then lots of volume.

Edited by ironultrared 2012-05-21 4:55 PM
2012-05-21 5:57 PM
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Subject: RE: Correcting swim form - what has worked for you?

masters swimming with a group

 

 

2012-05-21 7:14 PM
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Subject: RE: Correcting swim form - what has worked for you?

The single biggest swi break throughs for me came when a good coach, the late Doug Stern, looked at my stroke and hit me in the head with a kick board.

Then, once he had my attention, he found one thing to work on. I had a number of basic problems with my stroke but Doug picked the one that exerted the most profoundly negative effect on my swim speed. In my case it was crossing over at the front of the stroke.

He made the observation then quickly imprinted a technique for visualizing the correction: "Swim so it feels like your hands are way out here..." he said as he jestured a swim stroke with hands way too far apart than optimal.

I did what he said it worked with my bad hand placement. Since I stopped crossing over I swam straighter. Since I swam straighter I was a little faster. Since I was a little faster I was excited about the improvement and wanted more. But Doug meted out the improvements at a gradual rate, allowing one to sink in and become rote until he introduced the next, checking in with me while swimming, observing and reinforcing that I was doing it right.

Then he moved on to my kick, demonstrating that every other kick my feet and legs seperated an unnecessarily wide amount. We worked on that for two days, and it got better.

To this day I remember his advice and am mindful of those elements of my stroke. That worked for me to this day.

2012-05-21 7:16 PM
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Subject: RE: Correcting swim form - what has worked for you?
ziggie204 - 2012-05-21 3:41 PM

Honestly?  Stop doing drills and swim.  Sets of 50s, 100s, and the occasional 200.  Volume, volume, and then. . . . . more volume.

 



Can you confidently recommend that when you havn't seen him swim?


2012-05-21 7:18 PM
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Subject: RE: Correcting swim form - what has worked for you?
AdventureBear - 2012-05-21 7:16 PM
ziggie204 - 2012-05-21 3:41 PM

Honestly?  Stop doing drills and swim.  Sets of 50s, 100s, and the occasional 200.  Volume, volume, and then. . . . . more volume.

 

Can you confidently recommend that when you havn't seen him swim?

 

I think he was just saying what worked for him, maybe not recommending anything?

*shrug*

2012-05-21 7:19 PM
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Subject: RE: Correcting swim form - what has worked for you?
Try this...it's a thread with suggestions on effortless breathing

http://www.totalimmersion.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1878
2012-05-21 7:21 PM
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Subject: RE: Correcting swim form - what has worked for you?
RushTogether - 2012-05-21 6:18 PM

AdventureBear - 2012-05-21 7:16 PM
ziggie204 - 2012-05-21 3:41 PM

Honestly?  Stop doing drills and swim.  Sets of 50s, 100s, and the occasional 200.  Volume, volume, and then. . . . . more volume.

 

Can you confidently recommend that when you havn't seen him swim?

 

I think he was just saying what worked for him, maybe not recommending anything?

*shrug*


Probably. I don't really need an answer, just feeling a little mystified at the suggestion someone continue with admitted poor form and no concern for correction. Bad breathing sticks around if you don't work on correcting it.
2012-05-21 7:29 PM
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Subject: RE: Correcting swim form - what has worked for you?
Tom Demerly. - 2012-05-21 7:14 PM

The single biggest swi break throughs for me came when a good coach, the late Doug Stern, looked at my stroke and hit me in the head with a kick board.

Then, once he had my attention, he found one thing to work on. I had a number of basic problems with my stroke but Doug picked the one that exerted the most profoundly negative effect on my swim speed. In my case it was crossing over at the front of the stroke.

He made the observation then quickly imprinted a technique for visualizing the correction: "Swim so it feels like your hands are way out here..." he said as he jestured a swim stroke with hands way too far apart than optimal.

I did what he said it worked with my bad hand placement. Since I stopped crossing over I swam straighter. Since I swam straighter I was a little faster. Since I was a little faster I was excited about the improvement and wanted more. But Doug meted out the improvements at a gradual rate, allowing one to sink in and become rote until he introduced the next, checking in with me while swimming, observing and reinforcing that I was doing it right.

Then he moved on to my kick, demonstrating that every other kick my feet and legs seperated an unnecessarily wide amount. We worked on that for two days, and it got better.

To this day I remember his advice and am mindful of those elements of my stroke. That worked for me to this day.

I am now about 18months with my coach John Van Wisse.  First thing he corrected was my kick - overbending of knees - took weeks to rectify and the best way he found was to change my favoured breathing side - worked!  And for me to think I'm not kicking, clearly I am but it's minimal.  He said my kick isn't good enough to add speed so not to worry too much about it.

Next - arms wide!  Like so many other school taught swimmers my arms crossed over.  So relax the hands and feel like your arms are way out there!  Yep that worked too.

Fast forward 18mths and he's still finding things to fix.  Worried that i'm not as fast as he thinks I should be the last 4 weeks has been all about fine tuning my stroke (all this in a squad of up to 60 people!).  Basically I need a deeper catch but I was sweeping out too wide so now I enter the water wide as before but then I need to think of crossing over to my stomach on a deep catch - that way it falls exactly right!  I am now getting 'over' my stroke and generating a lot more power!

Wonder what's next!

2012-05-21 8:07 PM
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Subject: RE: Correcting swim form - what has worked for you?
erik.norgaard - 2012-05-21 3:00 PM

JohnP_NY - 2012-05-21 9:00 PM

What specific drills have worked for you.

Practice breathing every 3, 5, 7, 9 .. 11 to build up lung capacity. You can do a set of say 8x25 on the first breathe every 3, then every 5 etc. up to 9, repeat. After the flip turn, practice kicking/gliding under water beyond the 5m then take 3 strokes before the first breath.

If you breathe out you'll feel you need to breath again instantly. So, when you do more strokes per breath, hold it on the first stroke(s). So you can count 1 hold - 2 out - 3 in. 

Hyperventilate and try to do one lap without breathing. Try both freestyle without breathing as well as breast stroke under water. I love my 8x25m underwater at the end of the workout, it's really relaxing when focus is off speed and on gliding. One of the tricks to underwater sets is to breathe out just before getting up - sounds strange, but I've found some times I'd try to keep the air because I need it, and then there's no room to breathe in when I really need it.

If you hyperventilate you may feel dizzy, also, people may think you know what you're doing and not watch out for you, in particular if you swim u.w. So, be careful, don't go farther than you're certain you can. 

BR, Erik



These sets carry a real risk of shallow water blackout.


2012-05-21 8:22 PM
in reply to: #4221010

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Subject: RE: Correcting swim form - what has worked for you?
I hear you on the volume, but in my case even when I worked up to swimming 2 or more miles at a pop I felt I was an ok swimmer but just not the efficient swimmer that some of the better swimmers were. At my worst I could see myself getting super fit but fighting the water. Every good coach said the same thing, I was not rotating and my left arm was not catching the water to get full advantage of that stroke. But the odd thing was even when I knew the problem it was a tremendous amount of attention to fix it. I know this is a cliche but you can be in terrific shape but have poor form and an out of shape swimmer with good form will lap you. The water is so unforgiving.
2012-05-21 9:04 PM
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Subject: RE: Correcting swim form - what has worked for you?
Yes I can. This question is asked a lot and 99 out of 100 times, it is the correct answer. How often does someone post that they are doing 8k plus a week with no improvement?
2012-05-21 10:09 PM
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Subject: RE: Correcting swim form - what has worked for you?
ziggie204 - 2012-05-21 8:04 PM

Yes I can. This question is asked a lot and 99 out of 100 times, it is the correct answer. How often does someone post that they are doing 8k plus a week with no improvement?


I see this weekly in the swimmers I work with. Improvement is relative. You wouldn't believe the terrible breathing and sighting I am always helping to correct in our local IM and hIM athletes swimming 3-4k at a pop.

2012-05-21 10:14 PM
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Subject: RE: Correcting swim form - what has worked for you?
JohnP_NY - 2012-05-21 7:22 PM

  • But the odd thing was even when I knew the problem it was a tremendous amount of attention to fix it..


  • The quality of your attention is the single most important factor in correcting technique. Not just the volume of work done. What's the quality and duration of your attention? If you can identify a problem, have the focus to make an improvement and train your mind to hold attention on that singular thing, then adding proper repetitions (ie volume) is going to be helpful. To make lasting improvement requires converting a cognitive thought into a motor (muscle) pattern, and then reinforcing that process with repetition.
    .
    2012-05-22 7:33 AM
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    Subject: RE: Correcting swim form - what has worked for you?
    AdventureBear - 2012-05-21 10:14 PM

    JohnP_NY - 2012-05-21 7:22 PM

  • But the odd thing was even when I knew the problem it was a tremendous amount of attention to fix it..


  • The quality of your attention is the single most important factor in correcting technique. Not just the volume of work done. What's the quality and duration of your attention? If you can identify a problem, have the focus to make an improvement and train your mind to hold attention on that singular thing, then adding proper repetitions (ie volume) is going to be helpful. To make lasting improvement requires converting a cognitive thought into a motor (muscle) pattern, and then reinforcing that process with repetition.


  • A few years ago I was swimming up to 3 miles in OW per session, and I guess I was getting really good at swimming with less-than-perfect form. And even when I knew it, after I got a little tired I'd tend to regress back to that form. So I'd mix some catch up strokes every few hundred yards or so. Bottom line, changing movement, especially in water - where you can get a little nervous if you feel your breathing is not right - was very difficult for me. And this is coming from a long-time surfer who feels comfortable in very rough water. I can easily see how some folks can get quite discouraged.


    2012-05-22 9:56 AM
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    Subject: RE: Correcting swim form - what has worked for you?

    AdventureBear - 2012-05-21 10:14 PM
    JohnP_NY - 2012-05-21 7:22 PM . But the odd thing was even when I knew the problem it was a tremendous amount of attention to fix it..
    The quality of your attention is the single most important factor in correcting technique. Not just the volume of work done. What's the quality and duration of your attention? If you can identify a problem, have the focus to make an improvement and train your mind to hold attention on that singular thing, then adding proper repetitions (ie volume) is going to be helpful. To make lasting improvement requires converting a cognitive thought into a motor (muscle) pattern, and then reinforcing that process with repetition. .

    I think this completely nails it.

    2012-05-22 11:09 AM
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    Subject: RE: Correcting swim form - what has worked for you?
    AdventureBear - 2012-05-22 3:07 AM
    erik.norgaard - 2012-05-21 3:00 PM

    Practice breathing every 3, 5, 7, 9 .. 11 to build up lung capacity. You can do a set of say 8x25 on the first breathe every 3, then every 5 etc. up to 9, repeat. After the flip turn, practice kicking/gliding under water beyond the 5m then take 3 strokes before the first breath.

    If you breathe out you'll feel you need to breath again instantly. So, when you do more strokes per breath, hold it on the first stroke(s). So you can count 1 hold - 2 out - 3 in. 

    Hyperventilate and try to do one lap without breathing. Try both freestyle without breathing as well as breast stroke under water. I love my 8x25m underwater at the end of the workout, it's really relaxing when focus is off speed and on gliding. One of the tricks to underwater sets is to breathe out just before getting up - sounds strange, but I've found some times I'd try to keep the air because I need it, and then there's no room to breathe in when I really need it.

    If you hyperventilate you may feel dizzy, also, people may think you know what you're doing and not watch out for you, in particular if you swim u.w. So, be careful, don't go farther than you're certain you can. 

    These sets carry a real risk of shallow water blackout.

    I do not recommend the last unless you master the first, and progress gradually, not by leaps. The 3-5-7 drill can be done or modified to your level, start with 2-3-4, and progress safely. Just as the other drills in first paragraph and be done safely, do the glide to 5m OR the 3 stroke before breathing etc. Before swimming 25m uw practice breast stroke pull out, then add another stroke.

    As in all sports, trying to progress too fast can result in injury or death and it's one's own responsibility to stay within ones personal safe limit. Know thyself and accept that progress takes time.

    And, yes, hyperventilating can be dangerous, even for experienced swimmers! I recall a drowning accident in the early 90's with IIRC the Swedish national team. One swimmer nearly drowned but was rescued, while the other swimmers continued another one drowned. Didn't post this yesterday because I can't find a reference.

    But building up lung capacity is important, sometimes you miss a breath because of a wave and it should not kick you out, and doing drills like 3-5-7 can give you the flexibility to change according to circumstances, say in OWS you have someone on your right, which just happens to be your breathing side.

    BR, Erik

    2012-05-22 11:49 AM
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    Subject: RE: Correcting swim form - what has worked for you?
    erik.norgaard - 2012-05-22 10:09 AM

    But building up lung capacity is important, sometimes you miss a breath because of a wave and it should not kick you out, and doing drills like 3-5-7 can give you the flexibility to change according to circumstances, say in OWS you have someone on your right, which just happens to be your breathing side.

    BR, Erik



    OK that's (sort of) a fair argument...but it has nothing to do with the lungs at all. its the brain building up a tolerance to both CO2 buildup and also a psychological factor that you know you can make it another stroke or two without breathing.

    Just as an aside though...if a wave hits one side when you try to breath, you can go to the other side on the next stroke...you don't have to wait 6 more strokes.

    Working on "lung capacity" is just a misnomer and I think it's important for people to udnerstand that when they do this they are overriding their bodies protective mechanisms for keeping blood acidity in balance.
    2012-05-22 12:02 PM
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    Subject: RE: Correcting swim form - what has worked for you?
    ziggie204 - 2012-05-21 5:41 PM

    Honestly?  Stop doing drills and swim.  Sets of 50s, 100s, and the occasional 200.  Volume, volume, and then. . . . . more volume.

     

    If you're an accomplished swimmer technically, definitely sound advice.

    But I see other swimmers at my pool all the time plodding along with horrible strokes, who don't do any drills when they really need to (The guy in the lane beside me on Saturday was swimming with his hips and legs hanging down at a 45 deg angle all the time).  Doesn't make any sense to do a lot of volume when you're just re-inforcing bad technique.

    Mark

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