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2006-05-31 1:00 PM

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Columbus, OH
Subject: run cadence vs bike cadence
I recently discovered the concept of run cadence, reading some of the great articles on D3 multisports. Should I aim to train both sports to the same 80-90 rpm? If I find my run cadence is slower than my bike, should I train my bike cadence to my run cadence until I can speed up my run cadence?

Thanks,

Chris


2006-05-31 2:25 PM
in reply to: #439270

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Expert
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Guelph, Ontario
Subject: RE: run cadence vs bike cadence
I would like to know about this too.  Today I decided to do a brick.. went out on my bike feeling great, was concentrating on my cadence.  Did a nice 4 mins transition, and my legs wanted to continue at the same rpm as when I was on the bike.  This is great.. for the first 2 mins.. then I nearly died (well not really, but it was hard) so I had to slow things right down to get my HR back to a managble rate, and finished off my run feeling very defeated.
Any advice? (I know, I know.. the more I run the better I will become )
2006-05-31 2:28 PM
in reply to: #439270

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Giver
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Subject: RE: run cadence vs bike cadence

Mine are about the same (just shy of 90), but I'm not sure if this is a coincidence or if there is a direct correlation. I do know that about a year ago, I consciously increased my run cadence, but to a goal of 90 as opposed to matching my cycling cadence.

I don't know of any studies that correlate run and bike cadences that give some sort of optimal ratio...

2006-05-31 2:53 PM
in reply to: #439270

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Lethbridge, Alberta
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Subject: RE: run cadence vs bike cadence
Elly, make sure you're shortening your stride enough for the cadence.

Cevans, when I learned about bike and run cadence, I pushed both up to 90+ right away and it seemed to work for me. It probably depends on what you're doing now and what speed you end up feeling comfortable with in the two sports.

Edit: I think it helped that I was pushing both activities up to the same cadence at the same time. Each one re-inforced the rythym for the other.

Edited by Micawber 2006-05-31 2:59 PM
2006-05-31 4:45 PM
in reply to: #439466

Member
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Columbus, OH
Subject: RE: run cadence vs bike cadence
I did a bit of googling, and it seems that 85-95 is the preferred cadence for both running and biking. It makes sense, especially for the shorter races, becuase apparently your legs build up muscle memory on the ride and will "want" to run at that consistent cadence.

I'm going to start to incorporate some 30 -60 sec stride drills into my speed days. I found a metronome program that let me record a 30 sec clip at a 180 beats per minute, which is equivalent to a 90 run cadence. Boy, it sounds a lot quicker than I'm running now! I'd guess I'm hitting 60-70 run cadence. Yippee, another thing to work on!


Chris
2006-05-31 5:57 PM
in reply to: #439669

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Guelph, Ontario
Subject: RE: run cadence vs bike cadence

cevans - 2006-05-31 5:45 PM I did a bit of googling, and it seems that 85-95 is the preferred cadence for both running and biking. It makes sense, especially for the shorter races, becuase apparently your legs build up muscle memory on the ride and will "want" to run at that consistent cadence. 

I think thats the sensation I was dealing with this morning.. 

 I'm going to start to incorporate some 30 -60 sec stride drills into my speed days. I found a metronome program that let me record a 30 sec clip at a 180 beats per minute, which is equivalent to a 90 run cadence. Boy, it sounds a lot quicker than I'm running now! I'd guess I'm hitting 60-70 run cadence. Yippee, another thing to work on! Chris

I'm going to read the manual that came with my watch and try to figure out how to use the pace funtion   Good luck Chris, let me know how things work out for you.

Elly



2006-05-31 8:10 PM
in reply to: #439270

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Pro
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Subject: RE: run cadence vs bike cadence

The most efficient run cadence is somewhere around 90+ rpm or 180 foot strikes per min.  this has been found to be where most elite runners, regardless of height, run.  A high turnover combined with proper foot placement and body position allow you to maximize the elastic recoil of your tendons and muscles, reduce local muscle fatigue, and reduce braking associated with a longer slower stride.  Foot strike should be directly under your hips.  This will elimitant the pause that is necessary to allow you body to move over your foot before you can create forward propulsion.  Reducing yur stride length will also reduce the amount of vertical displacement which is a source of wasted energy moving your body up and down rather than forward.  Cycling at ~90rpm or higher has 2 primary benefits.  First, you are making it easier for your legs to transition to running if you can roughly match your turnover between the two sports.  Second, a higher cadence requires less force to be applied per pedal stroke which means that you can reduce the recruitment of fast-twitch muscle fibers.  Fast twitch fibers are more powerful but also fatigue more quickly and don't recover fast enough once they are used.  For triathletes we should be tryiong to save these limited fast-twitch fibers for the later stages of the run when we require them to help carry us through to the finish as the slow-twitch fibers become maximally recruited but you still want to push longer, harder, and faster. 

For an in-depth discussion of efficient running technique you might want to check out Ken Mierke's book "The Triathlete's Guide to Run Training".

2006-05-31 10:09 PM
in reply to: #439669

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Subject: RE: run cadence vs bike cadence
cevans - 2006-05-31 5:45 PM
I found a metronome program that let me record a 30 sec clip at a 180 beats per minute, which is equivalent to a 90 run cadence.


Great idea. Do you have a link so I can download it?
2006-05-31 11:06 PM
in reply to: #439270

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Pro
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Subject: RE: run cadence vs bike cadence
You can actually but tiny digital metronomes that you can clip onto your clothing and set to any rep rate you want.  They are particularly good if you are trying to increase your cadence because you can udjust it a few ticks at a time and gradually get up to your goal over a few weeks.
2006-06-01 9:04 AM
in reply to: #439884

Member
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Columbus, OH
Subject: RE: run cadence vs bike cadence
Here's the link fore the metronome:

http://www.milsoftware.com/crystalmetronome/index.php.

I found it linked from an article on Active. Windows only. It's shareware, 9.95 with a 30 day demo.

Chris
2006-06-01 9:41 AM
in reply to: #439270

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Subject: RE: run cadence vs bike cadence


2006-06-01 10:26 AM
in reply to: #439270

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Salisbury
Subject: RE: run cadence vs bike cadence
"You can actually but tiny digital metronomes that you can clip onto your clothing and set to any rep rate you want."


Where can I find such these?
2006-06-01 11:02 AM
in reply to: #439270

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Subject: RE: run cadence vs bike cadence
You only may edit a message within the first 30 minutes of posting.



Where can I find these?
2006-06-01 12:51 PM
in reply to: #439884

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New York City
Subject: RE: run cadence vs bike cadence
Great idea. Do you have a link so I can download it?


There are some friendly folks on the coolrunning.com marathon message board that post mp3's of music/metronome at 180 bpm. I can't listen to them constantly while running, but if you run with music, its helpful to place short clips in between songs just to check your cadence.
2006-06-06 3:02 PM
in reply to: #439270

Member
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Columbus, OH
Subject: RE: run cadence vs bike cadence
I did my first run this weekend using an increased pace, right around 180bpm, maybe a little slower, but still faster than my normal stride. To keep my heartrate in the right zone, I ended up taking shorter strides.

I was faster than I have been previously, and kept my heart rate lower than usual. I was surprised by how much difference it made.

Chris
2006-06-06 3:22 PM
in reply to: #439270

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Elite
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In The Peleton
Subject: RE: run cadence vs bike cadence
I had a breakthrough run yesterday, and I think it's due to cadence. I read about it last week, and in the sprint tri I did on Sunday tried upping my cadence on the run and felt pretty good but still got passed by lots of people. Last night ran 8.6 miles, which is my longest run EVER, and I felt GREAT. I made a conscious effort the whole run to take shorter steps and I definately had more energy throughout and after the run than usual. Seriously, it was a GREAT run. I had ideas running through my head about signing up for a marathon. And I don't generally like running. But, because I lost a whole bunch of positions on the run on Sunday, I decided to take action and try to improve my running.

This is a timely thread for me. Let us know how your efforts to pick up your cadence go Cevans!


2006-06-06 4:41 PM
in reply to: #440429

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Guelph, Ontario
Subject: RE: run cadence vs bike cadence

bjg26pt2 - 2006-06-01 1:51 PM
Great idea. Do you have a link so I can download it?
There are some friendly folks on the coolrunning.com marathon message board that post mp3's of music/metronome at 180 bpm. I can't listen to them constantly while running, but if you run with music, its helpful to place short clips in between songs just to check your cadence.

I just spent a few mins checking out www.coolrunning.com and was not able to find the thread or mp3's you mentioned.  Any chance you can post a link?

Also as an aside, but worth mentioning, is that we are very lucky to have BT.  The people that make up this community are on a whole, very giving and supportive.  I read a few posts on coolrunning.com and was surprised and turned off by some of the content of the posts and how these people interacted with eachother.  They were rude, condesending, and not helpful in the least.  This served as a reminder of the excellent quality and the wonderful character of the BT community and its members.

2006-06-06 4:47 PM
in reply to: #439270

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Expert
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Guelph, Ontario
Subject: RE: run cadence vs bike cadence
ok I just found www.fitpod.com which has free downloads of mp3's set at different bpm
2006-06-06 6:41 PM
in reply to: #439270

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Extreme Veteran
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Sydney
Subject: RE: run cadence vs bike cadence
I bought one of these after a recommendation from the guy behind the "Swim Smooth" DVD (which I also recommend)...

http://wetronome.com/

He also has a guide to using them on his website (sure he won't mind me posting link!) for swim training.

http://www.swimsmooth.com/documents/STROKE%20RATE%20TRAINING.pdf

I use it just tucked into my running cap, goggle band etc. Takes a little getting used to to set it but works great after that.
2006-08-06 3:50 PM
in reply to: #439270

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Subject: RE: run cadence vs bike cadence

fitpod.com rules. thanks!

i've been using mixmiester bpm analyzer (freeware) to get bpm of my own music collection.

2006-08-06 5:30 PM
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Expert
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Kaneohe, Hawaii
Subject: RE: run cadence vs bike cadence
Here's a LINK to a clip on metronome at amazon. Comes in three colors for $25.


2006-08-06 6:06 PM
in reply to: #439270

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8763
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Boulder, Colorado
Subject: RE: run cadence vs bike cadence

cevans - 2006-05-31 11:00 AM I recently discovered the concept of run cadence, reading some of the great articles on D3 multisports. Should I aim to train both sports to the same 80-90 rpm? If I find my run cadence is slower than my bike, should I train my bike cadence to my run cadence until I can speed up my run cadence? Thanks, Chris

90-100 rpms - try to keep either cadence over 90. The two key workouts each week:
1x per week on the bike - 100+ rpms spin ups - try to do this for 1 minute and add time each week - do as many reps as you can. Trainer or road is fine.

 

1x per week running - 6x30 secs fast - not sprint but run quickly with short steps and count your left foot strikes (start each rep with your right foot). You should be around 45 or better left foot strikes.

I hope this helps!

2006-08-06 6:09 PM
in reply to: #439884

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Boulder, Colorado
Subject: RE: run cadence vs bike cadence

caius - 2006-05-31 8:09 PM
cevans - 2006-05-31 5:45 PM I found a metronome program that let me record a 30 sec clip at a 180 beats per minute, which is equivalent to a 90 run cadence.
Great idea. Do you have a link so I can download it?

 Look at tempo trainers = you can use them for run and swim cadence (another thread from June) - http://swimyourbest.com/item_detail.aspx?ItemCode=105015 

Put in the code: tempotr20ainer and get 20% off.

2006-08-11 12:27 PM
in reply to: #439800

Regular
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Boston. MA
Subject: RE: run cadence vs bike cadence
Being a clydesdale and having the run beat on my body I am very interested in the body posistion and cadence you describe. 180 foot strikes, is that the total of both feet hitting the ground in 1 minute? Could I measure it by just my right or left foot? More info on this would be appreciated.
2006-08-11 12:33 PM
in reply to: #508971

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8763
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Boulder, Colorado
Subject: RE: run cadence vs bike cadence

nel34 - 2006-08-11 10:27 AM Being a clydesdale and having the run beat on my body I am very interested in the body posistion and cadence you describe. 180 foot strikes, is that the total of both feet hitting the ground in 1 minute? Could I measure it by just my right or left foot? More info on this would be appreciated.

I am working on an article I will have done next week - basically 90 left foot strikes per minute to sum up your question. That is your goal. Does that help for now?

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