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2013-01-31 8:21 PM

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Subject: Swim vid... be gentle
I'm a 57 year old self taught swimmer.... which will evident in a minute. ;')

I am a bit frustrated with my progress based on my time and effort I've put into my swimming.

I just got a copy, and saw for the 1st time last night, a copy of my swim video from about 7-8 weeks ago.
I knew it wouldn't be pretty, but...
The biggest thing that sticks out to me is the degree to which I'm scissoring my kick.

I think seeing the vid will in itself be a huge assist in developing my swim.
But, I figured I would enlist the collective genius of this site to tell me what to focus on first,
and how to go about correcting my biggest flaws.

Thanks for any help!

http://youtu.be/DeLGH4PTZ0A


2013-01-31 8:41 PM
in reply to: #4603541

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Subject: RE: Swim vid... be gentle

Self-taught? Not bad! I'm one month away from finishing a 15 year competitive swimming career and here's what I got for ya.

1. Body roll-  You want your body to rotate along your Y axis (think top of head to your feet)  You seem to stop at your hips.  You want your legs to rotate with you.  You want a smooth roll from side to side, even the side you don't breathe to.  This will maximize the amount of water you catch with each stroke.  

2.  Arm catch-  Speaking of catching water, the bigger the surface area the faster you will go.  I noticed you bend your wrists while pulling.  Try to keep a flat surface from your fingertips to your elbow.  One of my best coaches told me imagine you are grabbing big blocks on either side of your lane and pulling each one past you as you move down the lane.  Make sure you finish each stroke down by your hip.  (don't forget to roll!)

3.  Kick- Now, full disclosure, I've never done a triathlon, but have heard that its best to use your legs as little as possible to save them for the bike and run.  But I think by having a slow, steady kick as opposed to dragging your legs will make swimming easier for you.  You don't need a lot, just some forward motion so you're not just dragging them along behind you.

 

If you want any more, or want me to check out another video, just PM me!  

2013-01-31 8:52 PM
in reply to: #4603556

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Subject: RE: Swim vid... be gentle

Thanks Chris,

Interesting comment about my rotation stopping at my hips.

I appreciate the critique, and the offer to look at future video (might just take you up on that!)

I started doing a set of 5x50yds with an ankle band every swim workout shortly after this was shot. I  hoping this helps my position in the water.

Take care,

-Kev

2013-01-31 9:30 PM
in reply to: #4603572

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Subject: RE: Swim vid... be gentle
Thanks for posting, helps fellow newbs as well. My coach has asked me to focus on body roll as well. One swim thought that i use for drills is to have my arms extended while floating and then roll to one side with my head next to my arm.
2013-01-31 9:34 PM
in reply to: #4603541

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Subject: RE: Swim vid... be gentle

The good news about that scissor kick is that it is creating drag.

When you get rid of that, you will pick up tons of "free speed."

I am not enough of a swim coach to diagnose the root cause of your scissor kick, but I can tell you that my scissor kick was a reflexive way of compensating for poor balance in the water. Swimming with a pull bouy really exposed this problem, because I wasn't able to scissor kick to "rescue" my balance.

2013-01-31 9:39 PM
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Subject: RE: Swim vid... be gentle

jeetkevdo - 2013-01-31 8:21 PM I'm a 57 year old self taught swimmer.... which will evident in a minute. ;')

I am a bit frustrated with my progress based on my time and effort I've put into my swimming.

I just got a copy, and saw for the 1st time last night, a copy of my swim video from about 7-8 weeks ago.
I knew it wouldn't be pretty, but...
The biggest thing that sticks out to me is the degree to which I'm scissoring my kick.

I think seeing the vid will in itself be a huge assist in developing my swim.
But, I figured I would enlist the collective genius of this site to tell me what to focus on first,
and how to go about correcting my biggest flaws.

Thanks for any help!

http://youtu.be/DeLGH4PTZ0A

Not a competitive swimmer but one who is still swimming, taught lessons for years and is still certified as a lifeguard at age 48.  My two cents...

  1. Your arms should come out of the water, elbow 1st and then reach to put the hands back in at an imaginary line that runs down the center of your body.  Pull the whole way down that line (your hand down the center of your body); taught that technique to a buddy of mine who is older than you and does tris and he increased his swim time significantly.
  2. Your legs should be a scissor kick and not bending at the knees.  Kick from the hips and keep your body as straight at possible.  You'll streamline better and level off.

My thoughts...



2013-01-31 9:53 PM
in reply to: #4603541


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Subject: RE: Swim vid... be gentle
Keep your left arm and hand extended for support as you take your breath.  Swimming flat has the most drag so definitely work on your body rotation to the right.  Remember your body is like a teeter totter.  The more your hips/legs drag the tougher it is.  It looks like you've put some time in for being self taught.  If you can get your elbows higher during recovery, this may help in your rotation.  And you'll hear it alot, try to keep your elbow above your wrist, wrist above your finger tips at all times.  You'll catch more water with your hand and forearm (search EVF on youtube).  Many swimmers push down on the water at the front of their stroke.  Your right catch is much better than your left...extend that arm out further.  Try and learn bilateral breathing, it'll help get your stroke a bit more symmetrical.  Swimming is so technical so keep it up, you'll improve.  Get as much video as you can.
2013-01-31 11:51 PM
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Subject: RE: Swim vid... be gentle
Great work for a self-starter/self-teacher, etc.

Good points... you have a sense of uniting the legs with the body rotation (1 kick per stroke) and you have a "meaty" part of each stroke that moves you forward.

Biggest thing to improve right now...streamlining. This is the biggest bang for your buck. Freestyle is about moving from right side streamline to left side streamlining. If you freeze any frame in your video, there is very little streamlining, and this is what people are referring to when they talk about lengthening. Until you feel this in your stroke, i don't think that it's going to benefit you much to focus on the recovery, arm movement under the water for stroking ,etc.

Watch this and see how how is essentially swimming by switching easily from one side skating to the other. Then he breaks down the skating into a very simple movement. PRactice this and you'll improve quickly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fz-46LZ6atQ
2013-02-01 5:53 AM
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Subject: RE: Swim vid... be gentle
Thanks for the advice. I'll go thru this thread later... gotta drive thru a snowstorm to get to work now!
2013-02-01 6:40 AM
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Subject: RE: Swim vid... be gentle

Several comments:

Your kick - to me it looks like you are barely kicking. You really have a lot of work to do here. I think zoomers would help and some time spent with the kickboard.

Keep your elbows pointing straight up to the ceiling. This actually doesn't look too bad, but you're a bit off. Get those elbows higher. That will bring your shoulder into your ear and you should feel them touching. Then that will bring your arm right in front of you when it enters into the water which is where you want it to be.

When you pull, you kind of pull with your hand but should be pulling with your whole arm. I'm not sure if this makes sense - it's hard to explain. When you're pulling you should bend your elbow a bit so your pull comes underneath you and then you really catch and pull yourself through the water.

You're doing great! Your body position looks pretty good and I think with a proper kick it would be great. Keep up the practice. Feel free to PM if you have questions or want to go more in depth with my comments.

2013-02-01 7:12 AM
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Subject: RE: Swim vid... be gentle

For now, just focus on fixing your kick because that is probably causing most of your issues. Your feet should never be separated by more than a few inches. Your scissor kick is screwing with your hips and shoulder rotation.

 

Grab a pull buoy and keep it between your ankles instead of your hips. It will force you to keep your legs together, while also not letting them sink. You want to keep your body in straight of a line as possible. Anything past that and your are adding drag and throwing your rotation out of whack. Start with that and progressively work on the hip and shoulder rotation.

 

I am not going to comment on your catch or anything right now. When you fix the above, its going to change all that anyway. With swimming, the best thing to do is work on one thing at a time.



2013-02-01 9:24 AM
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Subject: RE: Swim vid... be gentle
I don't have anything to add about your form, but man, you do NOT look 57 in the face or the physique in that video.  Had you not mentioned age I would've put you in the 20's.
2013-02-01 9:29 AM
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Subject: RE: Swim vid... be gentle
jeetkevdo - 2013-01-31 6:21 PMI'm a 57 year old self taught swimmer.... which will evident in a minute. ;')

I am a bit frustrated with my progress based on my time and effort I've put into my swimming.

I just got a copy, and saw for the 1st time last night, a copy of my swim video from about 7-8 weeks ago.
I knew it wouldn't be pretty, but...
The biggest thing that sticks out to me is the degree to which I'm scissoring my kick.

I think seeing the vid will in itself be a huge assist in developing my swim.
But, I figured I would enlist the collective genius of this site to tell me what to focus on first,
and how to go about correcting my biggest flaws.

Thanks for any help!

http://youtu.be/DeLGH4PTZ0A
I have a sneeking suspicion that my swim stroke is a lot like yours. Thank you for the post and courage to send it out. I will learn alot froim the comments.
2013-02-01 10:03 AM
in reply to: #4603541

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Subject: RE: Swim vid... be gentle

I thought right the arm entry was pretty good, and you seemed to get your arms into a vertical position quickly. That strengthens the pull, giving more power from the waist up.

From the waist down, some work appears to be in order. I think you need better balance in the water, meaning your body is parallel to the top of the water. Your body is angled downward about 15 degrees.

The goal is to get your hips and legs higher in the water. This reduces drag and makes you more efficient. At least one cheek should feel air with each stroke.

Your kick is unique. You kick with both legs at once, then with the left. It appears to be an attempt to bring your hips up, and it doesn't work as well as you would like.  An effective triathlete doesn't need a strong kick - you'll need those muscles later in the race - however s/he needs an efficient kick. In these cases, the kick doesn't propel you as much as it helps the hips stay high.

One kick you might try is called a two-beat kick - one kick per stroke you take.

Usually, that means you kick with your left foot when the right hand meets the water. Not many Olympians do it, because they need more propulsion from their legs. One who did is Laure Manaudou.

There might be other balance issues - you seem to bob up and down a bit as you swim, but developing a steady kick may help a great deal.

Private lessons - even two or three, if you can afford them - would be a tremendous benefit to you. You could also look into Total Immersion swimming - a lot of drills on youtube, there's a book you can work from, or you can go to their weekend clinics.

2013-02-01 10:28 AM
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Subject: RE: Swim vid... be gentle

I've been swimming all my life, but never competitively.  In training for my first tri, I've found this site to be really helpful:

www.swimsmooth.com/

Lots of lessons about each part of the swim stroke, and really good animations to demonstrate them.  

I'm sure that it's not the be all, end all of swim guidance, but I've found it really helpful.

2013-02-01 12:33 PM
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Subject: RE: Swim vid... be gentle

Add some Kickboard work.  

-Don't kick from your knees.  Keep your knees straight.  Kick from your hips.  

-Your kick should only be about 15 degrees of leg separation.

-Your kick should be consistent.



Edited by lifejustice 2013-02-01 12:35 PM


2013-02-01 1:14 PM
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Subject: RE: Swim vid... be gentle

cpzone - 2013-01-31 9:53 PM Keep your left arm and hand extended for support as you take your breath.  Swimming flat has the most drag so definitely work on your body rotation to the right.  Remember your body is like a teeter totter.  The more your hips/legs drag the tougher it is.  It looks like you've put some time in for being self taught.  If you can get your elbows higher during recovery, this may help in your rotation.  And you'll hear it alot, try to keep your elbow above your wrist, wrist above your finger tips at all times.  You'll catch more water with your hand and forearm (search EVF on youtube).  Many swimmers push down on the water at the front of their stroke.  Your right catch is much better than your left...extend that arm out further.  Try and learn bilateral breathing, it'll help get your stroke a bit more symmetrical.  Swimming is so technical so keep it up, you'll improve.  Get as much video as you can.

 

Yes...to all of these things.  

Spend time with a kickboard doing kick drills.  example might be 3 x 150 (50 swim / 50 kick / 50 pull)

during the pull, focus on rotation and getting your elbows high during the recovery.  You could do fingertip drills and bilateral breathing during the pull sets. 

during the kick, really work on a fast flutter kick that snaps through your toes.  A little bit of bend in your knee is ok, but you don't want to bicycle kick.  Maybe exaggerate the straight leg kick until the flutter kick becomes more natural, then allow the tiny bit of bend in your knee to really get the snap.  

during the swim, try to incorporate all of the drills into your swim.  

Have fun and keep on swimming!



Edited by outdoorWI 2013-02-01 1:20 PM
2013-02-01 2:14 PM
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Subject: RE: Swim vid... be gentle

I have not read all previous posts so there might be some repetition.

Also I am not a pro-swimmer. I am painfully slow, but have coaching on a weekly basis.

This being said:

You "wobble" in the water, which is most likely lack of core strength. Do middle and side planks multiple times a week. Your body should be firm and tight and rotate as a whole around the middle axis.

A lot of kicking drills will help you with that too, as well as a tight rubber band around the ankles, to limit the gap between your legs (you need to be able to kick)

Your arms slap the water  and then go under, this pushes you upwards and your legs down creates drag). Slice your hand into the water abotu 1 foot in front of your head at a 45 degree angle. Drill for that is swimming with fins and head ABOVE the water (very tire some).

You may want to work on bi-lateral breathing, your left arm moves different than your right arm. Which means you are not in balance. Most likely due to one sided breathing.

Try to keep the elbows up high -> finger tip drill

Your stroke is not a fluid motion, you pause with your arms in the water. Swimming is all about fluid rythm. Slowing doin might help for that.

Your head is too low and creates drag, I would lift it a slight bit.

You kick from the knees, think BARBIE legs (if you don;t know what this means ask a female how they play with barbie swimming) straight legs with kick from the hip.

Also it loooks as you don;t fully extend under the water...

 

 

2013-02-01 7:48 PM
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Subject: RE: Swim vid... be gentle
Thanks to everybody for taking the time to critique, and to offer advice. I really do appreciate it... part of what makes this site great.

Even before I saw this vid, I was aware of a lot of my problems (kick, streamline, symmetry, evf, only letting one goggle exit the water, etc...)
Seeing myself for the first time did really drive these points home though.
When I posted this vid I was looking more for how to address those flaws. How do I fix these problems, and what to work on first?

Also, regarding getting coaching... I think the value for me lies in getting immediate feedback, and hands-on correction.
I did do one semi-private lesson about a year ago. She stood on deck (not even wearing a swimsuit) and never entered the water. Not exactly what I was hoping for.
Possibly because of our skill level she didn't think it was necessary (maybe it wasn't?). She did critique our strokes, and offered some advise... but no hands-on.
Is this the norm when you get swim coaching?

I hoping that this and future video are going to pay huge dividends by itself, but I have inquired to a local sports academy about coaching.
2013-02-01 7:49 PM
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Subject: RE: Swim vid... be gentle

noelle1230 - 2013-02-01 10:24 AM I don't have anything to add about your form, but man, you do NOT look 57 in the face or the physique in that video.  Had you not mentioned age I would've put you in the 20's.

 

Best response ever. 

2013-02-01 8:01 PM
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Subject: RE: Swim vid... be gentle
jeetkevdo - 2013-02-01 6:48 PM

Thanks to everybody for taking the time to critique, and to offer advice. I really do appreciate it... part of what makes this site great.

Even before I saw this vid, I was aware of a lot of my problems (kick, streamline, symmetry, evf, only letting one goggle exit the water, etc...)
Seeing myself for the first time did really drive these points home though.
When I posted this vid I was looking more for how to address those flaws. How do I fix these problems, and what to work on first?

Also, regarding getting coaching... I think the value for me lies in getting immediate feedback, and hands-on correction.
I did do one semi-private lesson about a year ago. She stood on deck (not even wearing a swimsuit) and never entered the water. Not exactly what I was hoping for.
Possibly because of our skill level she didn't think it was necessary (maybe it wasn't?). She did critique our strokes, and offered some advise... but no hands-on.
Is this the norm when you get swim coaching?

I hoping that this and future video are going to pay huge dividends by itself, but I have inquired to a local sports academy about coaching.


Just ask prior to your next lesson. All of my beginner lessons are hands on in the water. you can do a different type of coaching from the deck, but many things can be quickly corrected when I'm in the water with the swimmer.


2013-02-01 8:36 PM
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Subject: RE: Swim vid... be gentle

AdventureBear - 2013-02-01 12:51 AM  ttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fz-46LZ6atQ

 

I've seen that dude in the video before, he has one of the most freakishly smooth and quiet strokes you'll ever see. Great point of reference.

I noticed a couple things in your video that might help you visualize, might not, but why not mention them;

1) your upper body is kinda thrashing from left to right with each stroke, as opposed to staying in a straight line, and it seems to be originating from how wide your right arm goes from your body when you breathe. It's hard to discern if this is flexibility in play, technique, or what, but AdventureBear is spot on with the term "streamlining"...you need to get that position longer and straighter.

2) it's hard to say which is the chicken and which is the egg, but either your legs are doing what they're doing because of your roll and asymmetric upper body, or your roll and upper body are doing what they're doing because of your legs. Just to begin to feel a quieter leg activity, maybe give a pull buoy a try and see how your balance really is. Interestingly enough, the strokes you take with your left arm look much better from a balance perspective, if that can be used as a model. 

3) Eventually, you should work on a stronger catch and pull, but probably not yet. You lead your stroke with your upper arm and your hand and forearm follow later. It doesn't look consistent from one stroke to the next, so it's tough to nail down one thing to focus on for now - you're going to benefit so much more from balance and position, your arm position is going to be easier to feel once you get those in line.

That's some pretty impressive stuff for self taught. There are a lot of positives in there! Keep swimming!

2013-02-01 9:20 PM
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Subject: RE: Swim vid... be gentle

harmonjh - 2013-01-31 10:30 PM Thanks for posting, helps fellow newbs as well. My coach has asked me to focus on body roll as well. One swim thought that i use for drills is to have my arms extended while floating and then roll to one side with my head next to my arm.

A little scary... but how can you pass up free coaching?!?  

I look forward to seeing your video.

2013-02-01 9:22 PM
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Subject: RE: Swim vid... be gentle
What are good focal points regarding to streamlining... extend arms, shoulders to ears, feet touching?
2013-02-01 10:49 PM
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Subject: RE: Swim vid... be gentle


Edited by smithat05 2013-02-01 10:51 PM
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