General Discussion Triathlon Talk » A Watt is a Watt - Power Training vs Heart Rate Training Rss Feed  
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2013-03-10 2:03 PM


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Subject: A Watt is a Watt - Power Training vs Heart Rate Training

I'm starting to believe that the guys selling Power Meters are talking in circles....  It is what it is... A watt is a watt....

I personally love gadgets.    My Garmin toys make working out fun.   Oooh look data.   BUT  I'm a lot confused abut the value of Power Meters over Heart rate monitors for the purpose of training or even competing.

My HRM gives me excellent feedback on what training zone I'm in and how my body is reacting to stress.   I can effectively train aerobic capacity, lactate threshold, vo2 max using it.  I can test the levels of improvement over time.   I can monitor my rate of recovery and my resting heart rate.

A Power meter does a similar thing but at one level of indirection.  It measures the state of the engine by measuring power output rather than measuring the engine itself.

It would seem to me that all else being equal that measuring the state of the engine (HRM) should be more effective for training than measuring the output of the engine (Watts).

If the engine is having a bad day... underfed... under hydrated... overtrained then the most effective training should take these element into consideration (Heart Rate) and adjust the outputs (watts) to see the most effective training result.

All the Power Meter seminars appear to sell the opposite assumption.   That training should be focused on output without regard to the state of the engine.

...  I've just added a Kurt Kinetic Road Machine to my toy collection and have a cadence/speed sensor coming in the mail so I can watch my watts in Golden Cheetah.      Another form of entertainment on erg to make the time go by and I can watch cycling videos but other than entertainment will it really be an advance over my current HRM training model for developing fitness?

- rf



2013-03-10 2:44 PM
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2013-03-10 2:44 PM
in reply to: #4653766

Elite
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Subject: RE: A Watt is a Watt - Power Training vs Heart Rate Training
All I can say is that once I learned how to train using my PM properly, my cycling improved WAAAAY more then it ever did prior to that.  I'm not going to tell you that it's a magic bullet or the only way to achieve great improvements but it can be a very effective tool.  
2013-03-10 3:15 PM
in reply to: #4653766

Champion
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Subject: RE: A Watt is a Watt - Power Training vs Heart Rate Training
RobertFontaine - 2013-03-10 4:03 PM

I personally love gadgets.    My Garmin toys make working out fun.   Oooh look data.   BUT  I'm a lot confused abut the value of Power Meters over Heart rate monitors for the purpose of training or even competing.


HR is an indirect measurement of the stress on the cardiovascular system; it can provide insight into what is happening with the athlete but there are many confounding factors that must be considered. Power is a much more direct measure of the stress on the aerobic and anaerobic systems since the efficiency of most athletes while cycling is constant, the wattage is a good proxy for the physiological stress of training.

My HRM gives me excellent feedback on what training zone I'm in and how my body is reacting to stress.   I can effectively train aerobic capacity, lactate threshold, vo2 max using it.  I can test the levels of improvement over time.   I can monitor my rate of recovery and my resting heart rate.


Your HRM likely gives excellent feedback as to what your current HR is - as to training stress the data is likely to range somewhere from decent to very good depending on how well zones have been defined and other factors like hydration, excitement, fatigue, etc. You can use this to monitor, and make good predictions about training up to lactate threshold but provides little value if monitoring VO2max or beyond. Recovery can be indicated by resting HR but this is not always effective nor should it be relied upon in isolation.

A Power meter does a similar thing but at one level of indirection.  It measures the state of the engine by measuring power output rather than measuring the engine itself.

It would seem to me that all else being equal that measuring the state of the engine (HRM) should be more effective for training than measuring the output of the engine (Watts).



If HR was a direct measure of the stress on the cariovascular system, then you may be correct. However, since HR is impacted by many variables, power is actually a much more direct measurement of physiological strain than HR.

If the engine is having a bad day... underfed... under hydrated... overtrained then the most effective training should take these element into consideration (Heart Rate) and adjust the outputs (watts) to see the most effective training result.


I've been training athletes with power (and other via HR) for quite a while and, IME, power is much more valuable as a training metric. It provides immediate feedback to an athlete on how hard they are going which is valuable in both racing and training. Further, it is possible to much more accuratley track training load and monitor improvements. This also allows training to be adjusted if the desired results are not being obtained and predict how an athlete recovers from training stress. You are correct that the other factors will affect HR but this doesn't always means that the athlete won't be able to produce the power they normally can but rather that they will do so at a higher HR. It is important that an athlete not be a slave to power and realize that in some cases they won't hit their power targets, most commonly due to in conditions they are not acclimatized to yet. However, IME it is much more common that an athlete is able to complete a workout if they disregard HR and focus on power than it is to disregard HR, chase a power target and blow up as a result.

All the Power Meter seminars appear to sell the opposite assumption.   That training should be focused on output without regard to the state of the engine.


No, the assumption is that the output is a more accurate measure of the strain on the system than HR. This is why you often hear that a watt is a watt because it is a more direct measure of strain and therefore performance.

Shane
2013-03-10 3:17 PM
in reply to: #4653766

Master
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Subject: RE: A Watt is a Watt - Power Training vs Heart Rate Training

My HRM gives me excellent feedback on what training zone I'm in and how my body is reacting to stress.   I can effectively train aerobic capacity, lactate threshold, vo2 max using it.  I can test the levels of improvement over time.   I can monitor my rate of recovery and my resting heart rate.

How are you going to see improvement over time with a HRM?

Your HR zones don't change much except very slowly as you get older.  One of the nice things about a power meter is that you can see exactly how strong you are riding.  If you keep good records you can see your progress or regression over a long timespan.

There are other things you can do with a power meter, like calculating your CdA to improve your aerodynamic position on the bike.  Pick up one or both of these books:

Training and Racing With a Power Meter

The Triathlete's Guide to Training With Power

 

If you're not really digesting what's in those, or just not interested, then I wouldn't make the investment in power.  It's just an expensive bike computer if you're not taking advantage of it properly.

2013-03-10 3:18 PM
in reply to: #4653766

Extreme Veteran
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Subject: RE: A Watt is a Watt - Power Training vs Heart Rate Training

 

Most important : you can brag about your 370watts FTP but can't with your 192 LTHR



Edited by marcag 2013-03-10 3:19 PM


2013-03-10 3:22 PM
in reply to: #4653766

Subject: RE: A Watt is a Watt - Power Training vs Heart Rate Training
Good question. I use a CT for my indoor riding but ride outdoors by feel. I know the CT sets have improved my cycling dramatically simply by comparing my performance in races and compared with my usual riding mates. Hopefully those more knowledgeable about power training will chime in - this could be a very valuable thread.
2013-03-10 3:25 PM
in reply to: #4653843

Subject: RE: A Watt is a Watt - Power Training vs Heart Rate Training
marcag - 2013-03-10 11:18 AM

 

Most important : you can brag about your 370watts FTP but can't with your 192 LTHR

LOL...maybe you can brag about 370 here on BT, but you'll get laughed at with anything less than 400 on ST. 

2013-03-10 3:43 PM
in reply to: #4653840

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2013-03-10 3:54 PM
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Subject: RE: A Watt is a Watt - Power Training vs Heart Rate Training
tkos - 2013-03-10 11:43 AM
spudone - 2013-03-10 5:17 PM

How are you going to see improvement over time with a HRM?

Because you race at higher speeds at the same effort? All while going home after the race in one piece? Not saying that power can't do this, but heart rate certainly can. If you use it correctly. 

Having decided this year to train based on heart rate and actually follow through and having been tested for my correct levels, I am already seeing improvement. I am currently racing at what is normally my late summer or early Fall levels, yet I am no where near as worn out.

Again, not dismissing power, but don't dismiss heart rate, if you use the tool correctly. Few armature athletes have the discipline to.

In general, you can see improvements by comparing pace at the same HR.  But you are making the assumptions that the outside variables like wind, hills, temperature, etc are constant. 

2013-03-10 4:10 PM
in reply to: #4653766


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Subject: RE: A Watt is a Watt - Power Training vs Heart Rate Training
Great discussion here with lots of interesting stuff. If I may ask a question related to this....

In an ironman, is it not about managing your energy resources and especially tapping into your almost unlimited fat reserves as a source of energy to keep you going? However this only happens within a certain range of your heart rate, if it is too high you' ll quickly deplete your glycogen stores instead. Can heart rate and rate of energy use become decoupled if the heart rate is only high due to heat? If not, should we not focus on heart rate instead of wattage? Would I not run out of energy much quicker if I continued to base my performance on watts rather than bpm, especially if the latter one is above my usual threshold because of heat or other factors?


2013-03-10 4:18 PM
in reply to: #4653903

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Subject: RE: A Watt is a Watt - Power Training vs Heart Rate Training
Tysk-Ironwill - 2013-03-10 6:10 PM

Great discussion here with lots of interesting stuff. If I may ask a question related to this....

In an ironman, is it not about managing your energy resources and especially tapping into your almost unlimited fat reserves as a source of energy to keep you going? However this only happens within a certain range of your heart rate, if it is too high you' ll quickly deplete your glycogen stores instead. Can heart rate and rate of energy use become decoupled if the heart rate is only high due to heat? If not, should we not focus on heart rate instead of wattage? Would I not run out of energy much quicker if I continued to base my performance on watts rather than bpm, especially if the latter one is above my usual threshold because of heat or other factors?


There are good reasons to dial back the effort if one is racing in conditions that are hooter than the athlete is accustomed to however, to your point about substrate utilization and HR, HR is not a good predictor of substrate utilization.

Shane
2013-03-10 4:23 PM
in reply to: #4653903

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Subject: RE: A Watt is a Watt - Power Training vs Heart Rate Training

Tysk-Ironwill - 2013-03-10 4:10 PM Great discussion here with lots of interesting stuff. If I may ask a question related to this....

In an ironman, is it not about managing your energy resources and especially tapping into your almost unlimited fat reserves as a source of energy to keep you going? However this only happens within a certain range of your heart rate, if it is too high you' ll quickly deplete your glycogen stores instead. Can heart rate and rate of energy use become decoupled if the heart rate is only high due to heat? If not, should we not focus on heart rate instead of wattage? Would I not run out of energy much quicker if I continued to base my performance on watts rather than bpm, especially if the latter one is above my usual threshold because of heat or other factors?

This is the point where you need to break that barrier that a lot of people use their gadgets as laws. I've advocated even racing naked (gadget wise) several times based on this mindset: If you've put in enough training hours for your particular race, you become very familiar with how your body feels and reacts to different effort levels. You'll know if you're pushing too hard because your muscles just don't feel like they should. They're great tools, but outside factors can even impose on the effectiveness of using a power meter. You know your body and how hard you should be able to push. When you use a HRM or power meter for a long enough time you can also develop a sense of what numbers you should be hitting based on how you feel. So use them as guidelines rather than limits because if heat is causing your heartrate to beat 8 times per minute faster than normal, but your muscles are still working at the same effort level that they normally do, then race at +8 BPM. Drink more water, make sure you stay hydrated, and get in enough electrolytes to sustain that effort level in the heat. If you're sick you're going to be reading power numbers smaller than other race conditions, and adjust your sustained power to be a little lower than normal.

2013-03-10 4:31 PM
in reply to: #4653766


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Subject: RE: A Watt is a Watt - Power Training vs Heart Rate Training

I was primarily training with HR for the past few years and HR is good stuff. Def better than no data in terms of getting pacing and zones roughly dialed in.

 

However, I recently acquired a Powermeter, and while it's not the be all end all of training, it has revealed significant weaknesses in HR based training, similarly to the scale when I compared HR to no HR training.

 

I've been doing the same 56 mile solo ride with 5500 ft of climbing every Sat for the past 6 weeks, so I have a very good repeatable gauge of fitness with this ride.

 

Here's the breakdown:

- My average time (for what it's worth) on the ride has dropped by 20 minutes. I try and go close to all-out on these rides, so it's not just a matter of effort that's making me go faster. I FEEL notably stronger on the rides lately (much moreso) so it's also a real fitness effect.

- Normalized Power on these rides has gone up 20 watts over the past 6 weeks. It has gone up 3-4 watts on every ride, reliably as I've been ramping up training. This is good OBJECTIVE proof of improving performance.

- My HR results on these rides though, first went up as I could last longer at harder efforts, but then have started going DOWN. I was tracking HR using a weighted HR score called "TRIMP" in Golden Cheetah that's very similar to TSS in that high HR efforts get more weight than easy ones in the final score. Ends up really hard to interpret the HR data for improvement since the stronger you get, the harder you can go, but also the lower your HR for comparable efforts. 

 

THe HR works better on steady state long interval workouts, but I'm finding that %time in zone is very hard to interpret as an objective measure comparing workouts given that when you're improving, your ability at each zone changes even on a week to week basis.

2013-03-10 4:56 PM
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2013-03-10 5:00 PM
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2013-03-10 5:33 PM
in reply to: #4653766

Extreme Veteran
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Subject: RE: A Watt is a Watt - Power Training vs Heart Rate Training
RobertFontaine - 2013-03-10 2:03 PM

I'm starting to believe that the guys selling Power Meters are talking in circles....  It is what it is... A watt is a watt....

I personally love gadgets.    My Garmin toys make working out fun.   Oooh look data.   BUT  I'm a lot confused abut the value of Power Meters over Heart rate monitors for the purpose of training or even competing.

My HRM gives me excellent feedback on what training zone I'm in and how my body is reacting to stress.   I can effectively train aerobic capacity, lactate threshold, vo2 max using it.  I can test the levels of improvement over time.   I can monitor my rate of recovery and my resting heart rate.

A Power meter does a similar thing but at one level of indirection.  It measures the state of the engine by measuring power output rather than measuring the engine itself.

It would seem to me that all else being equal that measuring the state of the engine (HRM) should be more effective for training than measuring the output of the engine (Watts).

If the engine is having a bad day... underfed... under hydrated... overtrained then the most effective training should take these element into consideration (Heart Rate) and adjust the outputs (watts) to see the most effective training result.

All the Power Meter seminars appear to sell the opposite assumption.   That training should be focused on output without regard to the state of the engine.

...  I've just added a Kurt Kinetic Road Machine to my toy collection and have a cadence/speed sensor coming in the mail so I can watch my watts in Golden Cheetah.      Another form of entertainment on erg to make the time go by and I can watch cycling videos but other than entertainment will it really be an advance over my current HRM training model for developing fitness?

- rf

 

While I agree with your assessment to a great extent, after 3 years with the power and pace, I can tell you that you need both, HR and power in order to correlate INPUT/OUTPUT. If anybody tells you it is one or the other, it is grossly omitting valuable info. You need to know the relation between the two at any given moment. For tracking long term improvement you also need to observe rate of decoupling of the two under different loads. Very telling.

Powermeter did not improve my cycling at all. I knew how to train well before it, with only HR and RPE. It did improve my racing as it opened up my eyes on pacing the bike for a solid run. That is the only benefit I have seen from powermeter.

2013-03-10 5:36 PM
in reply to: #4653766

Subject: RE: A Watt is a Watt - Power Training vs Heart Rate Training
Isn't the ultimate point that power is a metric? Just like HR? Just because you might alter your strategy based on HR does not mean you'd not similarly alter your strategy using power. Some very fast people here race with power. Some very fast people here race with HR. just because you use one or the other does not mean you turn off your brain.
2013-03-10 6:27 PM
in reply to: #4653967

Master
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Subject: RE: A Watt is a Watt - Power Training vs Heart Rate Training
tkos - 2013-03-10 5:00 PM
tri808 - 2013-03-10 5:54 PM
tkos - 2013-03-10 11:43 AM
spudone - 2013-03-10 5:17 PM

How are you going to see improvement over time with a HRM?

Because you race at higher speeds at the same effort? All while going home after the race in one piece? Not saying that power can't do this, but heart rate certainly can. If you use it correctly. 

Having decided this year to train based on heart rate and actually follow through and having been tested for my correct levels, I am already seeing improvement. I am currently racing at what is normally my late summer or early Fall levels, yet I am no where near as worn out.

Again, not dismissing power, but don't dismiss heart rate, if you use the tool correctly. Few armature athletes have the discipline to.

In general, you can see improvements by comparing pace at the same HR.  But you are making the assumptions that the outside variables like wind, hills, temperature, etc are constant. 

Again, I don't discount power, but can you hold the same watts if you are lacking sleep or sick?

I can't hold the same in either metric in those situations.

2013-03-10 6:54 PM
in reply to: #4654054

Subject: RE: A Watt is a Watt - Power Training vs Heart Rate Training
brigby1 - 2013-03-10 2:27 PM
tkos - 2013-03-10 5:00 PM
tri808 - 2013-03-10 5:54 PM
tkos - 2013-03-10 11:43 AM
spudone - 2013-03-10 5:17 PM

How are you going to see improvement over time with a HRM?

Because you race at higher speeds at the same effort? All while going home after the race in one piece? Not saying that power can't do this, but heart rate certainly can. If you use it correctly. 

Having decided this year to train based on heart rate and actually follow through and having been tested for my correct levels, I am already seeing improvement. I am currently racing at what is normally my late summer or early Fall levels, yet I am no where near as worn out.

Again, not dismissing power, but don't dismiss heart rate, if you use the tool correctly. Few armature athletes have the discipline to.

In general, you can see improvements by comparing pace at the same HR.  But you are making the assumptions that the outside variables like wind, hills, temperature, etc are constant. 

Again, I don't discount power, but can you hold the same watts if you are lacking sleep or sick?

I can't hold the same in either metric in those situations.

Right.  The point I was trying to get at was variables that affect pace.  Since it was said you can see improvements by comparing pace against a constant HR.  I probably should have left temperature out above.

If rip downwind for 10 minutes at 160 bpm at a 30 mph average, compared to last week where I was riding with a crosswind for 10 minutes at 160 bpm at a 22 mph average...how do you compare these two rides? 

With a power meter...simply look at the watts. 

2013-03-10 7:57 PM
in reply to: #4653766

Pro
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Subject: RE: A Watt is a Watt - Power Training vs Heart Rate Training

Whoever said earlier that you have to take HR AND Power into account is exactly correct. Each on their own have merits and limitations but to truely get the entire picture of an athletes performance you need to look at them together. Sometimes I will have athletes ride by HR and sometimes by Power, sometimes we'll cover up both and ride by "feel"/RPE and compare the rides. Almost everytime the Power ride was the most consistent, the RPE/feel ride was the worst (pace and performance) and the HR ride was in the middle. Interval training on the trainer was the same, in a series of 5x5 min intervals the athletes tested had the smallest amount of deviation from the first to last interval using Power as the primary metric, using HR the 5th interval was as much as 10-15 watts lower at the same HR, and the feel/RPE intervals were just plain awful by the 5th one (as much as 30 watts lower).

Having said all of that about power, you have to be in tune with how HR relates to certain power outputs in certain conditions and know when to back off on wattage.

Keep in mind (and this is paraphrasing Allen/Coggin) "Heart Rate tells you how hard your heart is pumping, not how much you are improving on the bike. Power tells you exactly how hard you are pushing on the pedals."



2013-03-14 10:33 PM
in reply to: #4653766

Veteran
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Boulder, Colorado
Subject: RE: A Watt is a Watt - Power Training vs Heart Rate Training
The only people I've ever seen questioning heart rate training vs power are the ones who have never rode a power meter with a hrm attached. If I don't have access to power, I don't even worry about what my heart rate is.
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