General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Did I hit bonk/ fatigue while running? Rss Feed  
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2013-06-09 4:43 AM

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Subject: Did I hit bonk/ fatigue while running?
Running has been a sore spot for me for a long time so I decided to concentrate on doing few run races this season. My run pace is fairly slow and I try to keep it in a zone where I can use slow burning energy rather than glycogen. If weather or terrain is harsh, I even do run-walk at times. That being said... here is the recent most experience:

I did a 9miler last evening and it was an awful experience!! After 6miles, I had started to feel little tired and by 7miles, body had pretty much crashed. I continued to run-walk till 7.5miles and had to walk the last 1.5miles. Even at that, I my legs (specifically calves) were in more pain than I have experienced before! I was not out of breath but legs were dead. Tiny, small hills in the last mile seemed like mountains.

Before the run, I had eaten couple of bananas (hour or two before), drank about .5liter of water and had a 20oz bottle of water on me (no fuel). Even though, I was just taking very small sips, I was out of water around mile 6.5. So the most painful part of the crawl was in sheer agony, dehydration and feeling light headed. I had to stop at a red-light for a minute or two and I was ready to pass out right there on the street.

By the time, I got home, I was feeling like death. Legs were in intense pain, I was so dehydrated that sipping water was making me feel sick and it was incredibly difficult to eat anything. Body temperature was... weird. Maybe I had lost too much energy because I was getting chills (on a warm summer night). So I took a shower, ate a little and crashed for about an hour. Woke up feeling much better... downed lots more water, a giant chicken sandwich and now I am feeling normal except for the sore legs.

Although this is my longest runs yet but I have been steady on mileage increments. I do one long run per week and last week was at 8mi. That ended wayyyy better. Nothing weird except for the sore legs. However last evening was an awful experience and I would to like learn (and avoid) on what went wrong... not enough water on the run? Electrolyte loss? Do I need nutrition (gu packets/chews) during the long runs?




Edited by ironbaby 2013-06-09 4:49 AM


2013-06-09 5:10 AM
in reply to: ironbaby

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Subject: RE: Did I hit bonk/ fatigue while running?
Wow, that sounds pretty bad. If you had jumped from 3 miles to 9, then I would say it was too much too fast, but since you have been steadily building up, that shouldn't be the problem. Are you incorperating rest weeks into your training? If not, then this might have been a result of burnout/overtraining. Most likely though it sounds like an issue with fuel/hydration. Longer runs require a lot more planning in this area, especially if you are running at a slower pace. How slow is slow for you? 10 min miles? 15 min miles? A 9 mile run at 10 min miles is 1:30 whereas a 9 mile run at 15 min miles is 2:15. Either way, those are both over an hour and the general rule of thumb is, "Anything over an hour requires hydration and fuel." You need to do some research, look at your size, caloric requirements, sweat rate (depending on the heat and moreso the humidity) etc. to see how much you should be eating drinking. Then there is also the chance that you just had a bad day. It happens to the best of us Good luck!
2013-06-09 8:07 AM
in reply to: Kermat89

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Subject: RE: Did I hit bonk/ fatigue while running?
I don't know how others' bodies work but for me, chills are usually a sign of dehydration/heat exhaustion, doing a workout that's just too much when my body's fighting off an illness, or cumulative exhaustion from a hard week or so of training. Not typical of nutrition issues, which would manifest more as sheer lack of energy and maybe mental sluggishness or fogginess. You didn't mention how long the run took. For me, 20 oz. would be about right for a nine-mile run in the heat, but I'm probably around 8 minute pace, or a bit faster, so it's about 65-75 minutes. If it's closer to 2 hours, then that's a bit low for fluids, and you may have been dehydrated. Plus long runs do tend to go better with a bit of fuel en route.

When I did high-level marathon training, crashing like this with chills was almost the only way I could tell I was overtraining. I don't (or at least in my 20's, didn't) get many of the typical signs like soreness, elevated resting heart rate, poor sleep, etc. I could go on for days with ridiculously high volume and intensity, but then sometime, even on a very easy run, I'd crash as you describe. It was clearly just the way my body said, "Hey, wait a minute, we need some recovery here!" Maybe yours is doing the same?
2013-06-09 9:42 AM
in reply to: #4770995

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Subject: RE: Did I hit bonk/ fatigue while running?
So many factors... How hot was it? Are you eating enough during the day? How hard we're you running (this and previous workout)?
Could also just be a bad run. It happens. If it does again then I'd reevaluate.
The calf soreness does suggest some overuse so maybe rest up and back off the intensity more. Of course I'm no dr. -j
2013-06-09 2:21 PM
in reply to: Hot Runner

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Subject: RE: Did I hit bonk/ fatigue while running?
To answer the questions -

Weather was around 80degrees, no wind, 55% humidity. I do perspire heavily and that's why I took the water yesterday but it seems it washed my body out of electrolytes rather than helping me. My pace is around 12.30mm-13mm on the long runs so has been inching towards the the 2hours mark.

I have been doing 3-4runs per week (1 long and 2-3 short). Short runs stay in 4-5mile range and no cross training on off days. Would incorporating cross training improve my leg recovery and performance?

I have Nuun tablets, I pop those in water bottle for the next run or perhaps get some saltcaps? Any suggestions?

=======

18hrs after the run -

Calves feel good although ankle is a little sore. So not too bad at this point but looking back at it... I wasn't sure if I was gonna make it.
2013-06-09 4:39 PM
in reply to: ironbaby

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Subject: RE: Did I hit bonk/ fatigue while running?
Just went through the same thing. Doing a SaltStick/salt pill + gel every half hour and 22 oz water with Gu Brew/electrolyte tablet about two per hour or so made it much better for me And I run in 100+ degree weather!!


2013-06-09 5:00 PM
in reply to: ironbaby


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Subject: RE: Did I hit bonk/ fatigue while running?
Dont' worry about it. You had a tough run - it happens from time to time. I guarantee 100% you can do the exact same run next week and it'll go fine.

I wouldn't even try and overanalyze it. It was likely a combination of things - weekly training volume, sleep, random fatigue, etc. When you're pushing your long run limits, it only takes a little of one thing to knock you off your expected run goal. However, it's usually worth slogging through it, as your limit will be pushed upwards, and it'll take a LOT more to make you feel this way the next time around.


I always have one or two of these runs or bikes when I come back from a layoff of any sort. I've gotten used to the walking the last 1-2 miles - means I chose a good distance to really work it, and also means next week, I'll own it.
2013-06-09 6:53 PM
in reply to: ironbaby

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Subject: RE: Did I hit bonk/ fatigue while running?
If the run was pushing two hours, then 20 oz, sounds a but low for that weather. Normally I would carry two 16-oz. bottles for a run in the 1:45-2:00 range. I might not drink all of it, but I'd definitely have some handy for the entire run, not run out when I still had a ways to go. I'd also have at least one bottle of electrolyte drink, rather than straight water. If carrying that much fluid isn't convenient, maybe route your run past a water fountain or other place to refill? Runs over 90 min. also tend to go better with some nutrition. I usually carry a gu for that length (since I use no-sugar drinks); some might take two. For me the ones with caffeine give a welcome boost when I'm physically and mentally dragging in the heat.

Finally, it may also be an issue with the % of your total run volume that's your long run. If you're only running 3-4 days a week, 9 miles is a big load. You might be better off going to five days with some shorter runs.....It works for many people. I often run only four days a week and do manage long runs pushing two hours but I have a big run background since childhood.....most people seem to find that spreading the mileage over 5-6 runs works better.

I'm not sure about "cross-training". I assume this means you're training for a run-only race rather than a tri? In that case, the best training is running. An easy bike ride or swim might help with active recovery on your off days, though. Hitting the bike hard is obviously just going to further fatigue your legs for the run; not much point unless you're in fact training for a tri.
2013-06-09 9:35 PM
in reply to: Hot Runner

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Subject: RE: Did I hit bonk/ fatigue while running?
Originally posted by Hot Runner

If the run was pushing two hours, then 20 oz, sounds a but low for that weather. Normally I would carry two 16-oz. bottles for a run in the 1:45-2:00 range. I might not drink all of it, but I'd definitely have some handy for the entire run, not run out when I still had a ways to go. I'd also have at least one bottle of electrolyte drink, rather than straight water. If carrying that much fluid isn't convenient, maybe route your run past a water fountain or other place to refill? Runs over 90 min. also tend to go better with some nutrition. I usually carry a gu for that length (since I use no-sugar drinks); some might take two. For me the ones with caffeine give a welcome boost when I'm physically and mentally dragging in the heat.

Finally, it may also be an issue with the % of your total run volume that's your long run. If you're only running 3-4 days a week, 9 miles is a big load. You might be better off going to five days with some shorter runs.....It works for many people. I often run only four days a week and do manage long runs pushing two hours but I have a big run background since childhood.....most people seem to find that spreading the mileage over 5-6 runs works better.

I'm not sure about "cross-training". I assume this means you're training for a run-only race rather than a tri? In that case, the best training is running. An easy bike ride or swim might help with active recovery on your off days, though. Hitting the bike hard is obviously just going to further fatigue your legs for the run; not much point unless you're in fact training for a tri.


+1 on all of this.
First, if you're running 4 days, a 2 hr run is a big load for your body to handle. I would think that this is too much, and you just don't yet have the fitness to pull this off consistently.
80F is warm, and you will sweat a bunch. Not enough liquid, and possibly not enough nutrition. This may exacerbate the situation, but I don't think it's the primary source of your trouble.
IMHO, you're not doing enough running to worry about cross training yet.

If you haven't discovered the BarryP running plan, it's worth looking into, as I think it would help. It's not magic on convoluted, and it's probably effective for 90+% of us. Run alot, mostly easy, sometimes hard.

And good luck getting this sorted out. Be patient, and work smart! -J
2013-06-09 10:23 PM
in reply to: karlaj

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Subject: RE: Did I hit bonk/ fatigue while running?
Thanks guys.

Yeah, right now I am only training a half/full marathon and not a tri. As you can see running takes a lot out of me.

Karlaj, did you mean 4 days/week is too much or too little for 2hrs on long runs? As mentioned before, I do at least 2x 5mi during the week and can possible add a shorter (perhaps 3miler) as fourth run.
Yes, all training right has been run focussed. No bike/swim or weights. I read it on Hal Higdon's blog that it is okay for existing gym rats to continue lifting during run training but to start lifting while starting run training... is not a good idea.

Hot Runner, how would you recommend spreading it over 5-6days/week for 13.1/26.2 focussed training. I don't think it would be wise to cut out the long run part. Appreciate your input.
2013-06-10 5:38 AM
in reply to: ironbaby

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Subject: RE: Did I hit bonk/ fatigue while running?
I don't follow it myself usually, for various reasons, but Barry P is basically three shorter runs, two medium runs, and one longer run. You take your weekly mileage and divide it into tenths, then do different runs of various lengths. For example, when I was training for a half-marathon, I attempted to do this with about 50 miles per week. if I followed Barry P exactly (I didn't), I'd do it as: 3 runs of 10% of the weekly total each (5 miles), 2 runs of 20% each (10 miles), and one run of 30% (long run of 15 miles), plus a rest day.

In reality, I did the long run and split the other runs more evenly over 3-4 other days (8-10 miles each), while doing maintenance swims and a weekly longer bike. This works for me as I have some chronic back and hamstring issues that do better if I have a longer warmup (and thus a longer run), don't run too many consecutive days, and swim regularly. But for most beginning runners without such issues, the Barry P plan is very effective.


2013-06-10 7:00 AM
in reply to: #4771098

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Subject: RE: Did I hit bonk/ fatigue while running?
Bonk.

I ran 24km this weekend in just under 2h 30m. I took 27 oz of eload and bought a bottle of water on route so just shy of 37 oz of fluid. I also used 3 gels and 2 salt tabs. Before I left (two hours before) for the run I had 2 bagels and peanut butter.

The temp was only about 60 outside if it was hotter I would have had another water bottle.
2013-06-10 9:10 AM
in reply to: ironbaby

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Subject: RE: Did I hit bonk/ fatigue while running?
Originally posted by ironbaby

Karlaj, did you mean 4 days/week is too much or too little for 2hrs on long runs? As mentioned before, I do at least 2x 5mi during the week and can possible add a shorter (perhaps 3miler) as fourth run.



4 days/wk *might* be enough frequency to do a 2 hr long run, but still seems too little (to me, anyway). 3 days is almost certainly too few. Add that short 4th run (20-30 min?) and see how you do. And easy does it! -J
2013-06-10 9:21 AM
in reply to: ironbaby

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Subject: RE: Did I hit bonk/ fatigue while running?
No you did not bonk; very likely a combination of insufficient fitness combined with residual fatigue from the rest of your training and you had a bad run.

This may be further complicated by the fact that you probably should be looking at some fuel on a long run, espeically if it is of a duration that is longer than you usually do. While it is possible to complete a two hour long run without supplemental carbs, it will depend on your effort, fitness level and glycogen stores going into the run.

Shane
2013-06-10 4:36 PM
in reply to: gsmacleod

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Subject: RE: Did I hit bonk/ fatigue while running?
It seems by popular vote that 3x-4x/week is not enough running for a long run race?

How would you guys suggest training for it? I thought atleast couple of days rest is almost mandatory for somebody with no prior background in running.
2013-06-10 4:44 PM
in reply to: ironbaby

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Subject: RE: Did I hit bonk/ fatigue while running?
Originally posted by ironbaby

It seems by popular vote that 3x-4x/week is not enough running for a long run race?

How would you guys suggest training for it? I thought atleast couple of days rest is almost mandatory for somebody with no prior background in running.

Minimum 5x and more preferably 6x week. I'm going to agree with the others and say that it was most likely fatigue and fitness above all else. What time of day? What did you eat and do prior to your run that day? What was the day before?


2013-06-10 6:29 PM
in reply to: ironbaby

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Subject: RE: Did I hit bonk/ fatigue while running?
Originally posted by ironbaby

It seems by popular vote that 3x-4x/week is not enough running for a long run race?

How would you guys suggest training for it? I thought atleast couple of days rest is almost mandatory for somebody with no prior background in running.


Lots of advice but here's my 2 cents:

- if your pace is still on the slow side, try to measure your workouts by time, not distance. I still do that for my long runs (for example, I went about 2 hrs last week and I may go 2:15 on Sunday. At my pace, that extra 15 min is probably going to be around 1.5 miles or so (I do long runs around 8:00-8:40 pace depending on objectives for the workout).

- if running in 80F weather and you're on the larger side, remember that heat will likely affect you more. 80F in full sun is pretty hot running conditions so make sure to stay cool and possibly take in electrolytes (I take Endurolytes when running in weather that hot). You may just need to acclimatize to those weather conditions (and also make sure you are not dehydrated)

- i don't take in any calories unless I'm running longer than 90 min. For 2 hrs, I'll have a Hammer Gel (90 calories) around the 1 hr mark

- What's a long run race? I consider half-marathons and longer as 'long' races. I do not train exclusively for the run but still try to get at least 4-5 runs a week. For my half-ironman (half-marathon) training I do: 1 long run (2 hrs or so), 1 medium run (45min-1hr), then the others being short runs (30 min) with different goals depending on the workout. Some of those short run might be more tempo, some may have intervals or some may just be easy aerobic runs.

- For a newer runner- you'd get more out of shorter, more frequent runs than going too long. You can't rush running improvement - just a matter of small little improvements by being consistent and not getting injured. In my opinion, it's not about suffering consistently on your run workouts - it's still should feel mostly easy and if it doesn't you're doing too much too soon. If you need to do more walking than running initially - so be it!

Hope that helps!

2013-06-10 7:06 PM
in reply to: thebigb


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Subject: RE: Did I hit bonk/ fatigue while running?
Originally posted by thebigb

Originally posted by ironbaby

It seems by popular vote that 3x-4x/week is not enough running for a long run race?

How would you guys suggest training for it? I thought atleast couple of days rest is almost mandatory for somebody with no prior background in running.

Minimum 5x and more preferably 6x week. I'm going to agree with the others and say that it was most likely fatigue and fitness above all else. What time of day? What did you eat and do prior to your run that day? What was the day before?


I think it's better if a beginner can do more frequent runs of shorter distance just because they'll have so much a harder time with longer runs, but with a running background, you can def do HIM distance and run very well on 3 runs per week. Beginners though would be better off breaking it up into more shorter runs to avoid injury risk.
2013-06-10 7:50 PM
in reply to: yazmaster

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Subject: RE: Did I hit bonk/ fatigue while running?
Originally posted by yazmaster

Originally posted by thebigb

Originally posted by ironbaby

It seems by popular vote that 3x-4x/week is not enough running for a long run race?

How would you guys suggest training for it? I thought atleast couple of days rest is almost mandatory for somebody with no prior background in running.

Minimum 5x and more preferably 6x week. I'm going to agree with the others and say that it was most likely fatigue and fitness above all else. What time of day? What did you eat and do prior to your run that day? What was the day before?


I think it's better if a beginner can do more frequent runs of shorter distance just because they'll have so much a harder time with longer runs, but with a running background, you can def do HIM distance and run very well on 3 runs per week. Beginners though would be better off breaking it up into more shorter runs to avoid injury risk.

Definitely agree. The OP had mentioned marathon training which is why I went straight to 5-6 days a week.
2013-06-10 8:05 PM
in reply to: ironbaby

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Subject: RE: Did I hit bonk/ fatigue while running?

Originally posted by ironbaby It seems by popular vote that 3x-4x/week is not enough running for a long run race? How would you guys suggest training for it? I thought atleast couple of days rest is almost mandatory for somebody with no prior background in running.

Are you following any sort of plan/ program?

 

Hal Higdon has a bunch of (very popular) marathon/ HM programs.

If you are new to running I can't imagine why you wouldn't follow some sort of program for a distance event.

2013-06-10 8:08 PM
in reply to: thebigb

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Subject: RE: Did I hit bonk/ fatigue while running?
Okay, in that case, I will try to hit atleast do run training 5x per week. I was avoiding frequent running to avoid stress injuries. But it seems repeating short distances is the way to improve.

Besides the weekly long run.... what is an optimal distance for short distances?

I have a half marathon in 6 weeks... I am hoping to treat it as half way mark through the training for 26.2.


2013-06-10 11:56 PM
in reply to: ironbaby

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Subject: RE: Did I hit bonk/ fatigue while running?
I'll just throw my opinion into the mix since there doesn't seem to be a consensus.

The symptoms sound more to me like heat illness than bonking, The issues were probably made worse by dehydration. Training this time of year can be tricky, temperatures are climbing and your body probably hasn't had a chance to acclimate to the heat properly.
2013-06-11 2:18 AM
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Subject: RE: Did I hit bonk/ fatigue while running?
Originally posted by trishie

Originally posted by ironbaby It seems by popular vote that 3x-4x/week is not enough running for a long run race? How would you guys suggest training for it? I thought atleast couple of days rest is almost mandatory for somebody with no prior background in running.

Are you following any sort of plan/ program?

 

Hal Higdon has a bunch of (very popular) marathon/ HM programs.

If you are new to running I can't imagine why you wouldn't follow some sort of program for a distance event.




I am following Hal Higdon's plan with some modification. His long runs are scheduled a little erratically and that's not gonna work with me. I have continuous and steady increments. And, he suggests 1 day dedicated to cross-train which I haven't been doing. In other words, I do have some sort of a plan... though it's not copied verbatim from his site.

Edited by ironbaby 2013-06-11 2:20 AM
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