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Outside the Lines Article on Triathlon Swimming Deaths
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 2013-10-20 10:50 AM |
 61 |  Subject: Outside the Lines Article on Triathlon Swimming DeathsI just read the article http://espn.go.com/espn/feature/story/_/id/9838319/trouble-surface It was really interesting. I must say the feeling of distress and panic has often hit me in the swim. I really related to a lot of the article. In the Lausanne, Switzerland triathlon last year the wind was really blowing and the waves on Lake Geneva where as big as I have seen. It was an Olympic distance and it was an out and back starting from a pier going parallel to the shore. I am a slow swimmer and I was worried about being unnoticed in the back and away from the main pack. I was really glad that I managed to find two other swimmers and it gave me some comfort. I emerged from the swim literally sea sick from the waves. I was also an interesting read how much different it is here in Europe. Listening to the lawsuits pile up after each swimming death. While Europe isn't immune from this there is a much greater sense of personal responsibility for ones actions. I am actually curious how many deaths there are in Swiss triathlons a year. I will try and find out and update this. I wonder if since our swims only take place in lakes, with fairly clear waters, if this is less likely. Also since the Swiss population tends to be life long athletes with also a tendency towards self reliance if there is less panic in the water. Now in swims I wait 30 sec to a minute after the start and then go. My route is always to the outside and wide. I actually dislike staggered starts because then I get torpedoed from behind. As I tell my friends the swim is the freakiest. If something happens on the run you get a taxi, on the bike you take a train, but on the swim you drown. You do feel more vulnerable. Let me know what you think about the article. Paul |
| 2013-10-20 11:25 AM in reply to: pfomalont |
Expert 2355   Madison, Wisconsin | Subject: RE: Outside the Lines Article on Triathlon Swimming Deaths When you crunch the numbers, skydiving is still way more dangerous so triathlon is a safe sport. But I agree that any action to save even one life is worth the effort. What I don't get is when companies like WTC try to implement strategies to PROTECT the athlete and they are ripped apart by comments of how they are watering down the IM race. So what do athletes want? Safe races or the 5 second spectacle that is a mass start. I am firmly aware this happens in TT and wave starts too, but can you give negative comments to WTC for their efforts? Personal responsibility needs to be taken for account. Athletes need to train better instead of going into IM's as their first race. Athletes need to take their own health into consideration, gets yearly physicals, prepare for the race appropriately (warmup), etc. |
| 2013-10-20 2:42 PM in reply to: pfomalont |
Champion 7821  Brooklyn, NY | Subject: RE: Outside the Lines Article on Triathlon Swimming Deaths Originally posted by pfomalont I just read the article http://espn.go.com/espn/feature/story/_/id/9838319/trouble-surface It was really interesting. I must say the feeling of distress and panic has often hit me in the swim. I really related to a lot of the article. In the Lausanne, Switzerland triathlon last year the wind was really blowing and the waves on Lake Geneva where as big as I have seen. It was an Olympic distance and it was an out and back starting from a pier going parallel to the shore. I am a slow swimmer and I was worried about being unnoticed in the back and away from the main pack. I was really glad that I managed to find two other swimmers and it gave me some comfort. I emerged from the swim literally sea sick from the waves. I was also an interesting read how much different it is here in Europe. Listening to the lawsuits pile up after each swimming death. While Europe isn't immune from this there is a much greater sense of personal responsibility for ones actions. I am actually curious how many deaths there are in Swiss triathlons a year. I will try and find out and update this. I wonder if since our swims only take place in lakes, with fairly clear waters, if this is less likely. Also since the Swiss population tends to be life long athletes with also a tendency towards self reliance if there is less panic in the water. Now in swims I wait 30 sec to a minute after the start and then go. My route is always to the outside and wide. I actually dislike staggered starts because then I get torpedoed from behind. As I tell my friends the swim is the freakiest. If something happens on the run you get a taxi, on the bike you take a train, but on the swim you drown. You do feel more vulnerable. Let me know what you think about the article. Paul The greater level of commitment to one's sport was something interesting I observed in Europe. In the US, there's definitely much more of an inclusive, "anyone can do a Tri!" attitude than there is over there. The "I'm happy just to finish" mentality, where people without a background in SBR enter a race on minimal training and plan to swim buoy to bouy, ride their upright cruiser bike and then walk the whole run leg doesn't really exist over there. I did a group workout with a French Tri club and even though I had done dozens of tris, they were still surprised that I was participating in the sport when I hadn't come from a competitive swim, bike, or run background, as all of them had. It seems that there people seem to figure out what "their" sport is at an early age and pretty much stay in their lane their whole life. I'm not saying it's better or worse, just different. |
| 2013-10-20 2:53 PM in reply to: pfomalont |
Master 1790 Tyler, TX | Subject: RE: Outside the Lines Article on Triathlon Swimming Deaths I thought the article was a fair and unbiased assessment of the swim deaths and some actions being taken to alleviate them. I think it's great that this is getting attention as fewer deaths is better for the sport for all of us. I think that swim deaths get attention because they are horrible, happen in a competition, and happen in an environment where it is difficult to rescue you quickly. On the other hand, I think we all take far more risk each day we ride our bikes on roads with texting and inattentive car drivers... Brian |
| 2013-10-20 4:21 PM in reply to: famelec |
Member 169 | Subject: RE: Outside the Lines Article on Triathlon Swimming Deaths Not sure why a new thread was started on this when the old one was on top this morning but here's my post from the other thread: That article really doesn't say much to be honest. In fact, I think it's actually more surprising that theres ONLY been 44 swim deaths in 6 years, and few of those were proven to be "swim" deaths vs "medical condition" deaths that happened in the water. I don't see how this is even a real thing. I'm sure there's been 100's of 1000's of people who have done tri's in that time frame and to have such a low number of deaths for an admittedly risky event is surprising. |
| 2013-10-20 4:38 PM in reply to: pfomalont |
Extreme Veteran 705 | Subject: RE: Outside the Lines Article on Triathlon Swimming Deaths Good article. I was very nervous in my first OWS, even though I had been swimming in Lake George to prepare, but didn't have a wetsuit on. I swam a lot more in the lake to practice, and wore wetsuits in the other tris I did. I don't know if I would do a swim without a wetsuit. The buoyancy it gives could be a lifesaver if I ever got a cramp or swallowed water. Also, I always start at the back side and keep an eye on the safety kayaks. I am very comfortable in the water but a good kick to the head could be dangerous so I avoid others as much as possible. But then again, I'm not trying to win.  just finish safely. |
| 2013-10-20 4:46 PM in reply to: famelec |
| 61 | Subject: RE: Outside the Lines Article on Triathlon Swimming Deaths I can't decide whether I think that the article was sensationalistic of unbiased. I did enjoy reading it but it seems to be making an issue of triathlons as unbelievably dangerous and the race directors grossly negligent. There is no doubt in big races with 1000 or more people in the water if something happens it is hard to see them and then get them effective medical treatment quickly. Like someone else noted I was amazed how little accidents there were on the bike. It is too bad HR monitors don't work in the water. I bet it would be a good study to see the effects of panic during the swim on the heart. It seems that was a big point of the article. |
| 2013-10-20 4:47 PM in reply to: famelec |
| 61 | Subject: RE: Outside the Lines Article on Triathlon Swimming Deaths I can't decide whether I think that the article was sensationalistic of unbiased. I did enjoy reading it but it seems to be making an issue of triathlons as unbelievably dangerous and the race directors grossly negligent. There is no doubt in big races with 1000 or more people in the water if something happens it is hard to see them and then get them effective medical treatment quickly. Like someone else noted I was amazed how little accidents there were on the bike. It is too bad HR monitors don't work in the water. I bet it would be a good study to see the effects of panic during the swim on the heart. It seems that was a big point of the article. |
| 2013-10-20 5:25 PM in reply to: #4880732 |
Member 169 | Subject: RE: Outside the Lines Article on Triathlon Swimming Deaths There are hrms that work in the water. None are Garmin gps though unfortunately. |
| 2013-10-20 6:58 PM in reply to: aliddle9876 |
Member 1004 | Subject: RE: Outside the Lines Article on Triathlon Swimming Deaths One tri I did this year was an individual stagger. Everyone lined up according to their bib number and we were started five seconds apart. The bib numbers were assigned based on predicted speeds. The problem with it is at the finish line where you can't really see who you've beaten and who you need to pass. I thought it worked out very well though and it sure was nicer than the melee at most swim starts. |
| 2013-10-20 7:08 PM in reply to: aliddle9876 |
Pro 5361 | Subject: RE: Outside the Lines Article on Triathlon Swimming Deaths I found the article, mostly- just pretty sad. I do appreciate when Race Directors put safety first. Not just on the swim, but especially on the bike as well. Having volunteers pointing out sharp turns, uneven terrain, separation from traffic, etc. I did one 70.3 where the RD had a separate swim wave for those who wanted extra 'coverage', and he had a fleet of kayaks out there to patrol it all. Well done sir! Certainly, the USAT and RDs should set good standards for safe conditions. Sadly, no amount of safety will be able to protect everyone. |
| 2013-10-20 7:42 PM in reply to: 0 |
| 83 | Subject: RE: Outside the Lines Article on Triathlon Swimming Deaths I'm no math whiz, but 44 swim deaths over the course of seven years doesn't seem like a huge number. I don't mean to minimize this (one death is obviously one too many) but what is the denominator in this equation? How many people participated in triathlons over this period? I suppose it could be many hundreds of thousands. So this may be in the range of under a tenth of 1 percent. I wonder how this ranks up against deaths in adult basketball leagues (which can be brutally tough) or downhill skiing. Again, all of these situations are tragic so don't get me wrong. But I worry that as triathlon becomes more popular there will be sensational press stories that try to tear the sport down. Many of you probably saw this Bloomberg story, which seemed pretty thinly researched: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-06-20/men-over-40-should-think-t... Edited by halfironmike 2013-10-20 7:43 PM |
| 2013-10-20 7:54 PM in reply to: halfironmike |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Outside the Lines Article on Triathlon Swimming Deaths Originally posted by halfironmike I'm no math whiz, but 44 swim deaths over the course of seven years doesn't seem like a huge number. I don't mean to minimize this (one death is obviously one too many) but what is the denominator in this equation? How many people participated in triathlons over this period? I suppose it could be many hundreds of thousands. So this may be in the range of under a tenth of 1 percent. I wonder how this ranks up against deaths in adult basketball leagues (which can be brutally tough) or downhill skiing. Again, all of these situations are tragic so don't get me wrong. But I worry that as triathlon becomes more popular there will be sensational press stories that try to tear the sport down. Many of you probably saw this Bloomberg story, which seemed pretty thinly researched: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-06-20/men-over-40-should-think-t... Pretty much this ^^ for me. I see it as a non-issue. In fact, I'm willing to bet the number of deaths stay about the same despite efforts to "make it more safe". People die....active people tend to die being active....the numbers stay the same. |
| 2013-10-20 8:51 PM in reply to: Left Brain |
| Subject: RE: Outside the Lines Article on Triathlon Swimming Deaths Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by halfironmike I'm no math whiz, but 44 swim deaths over the course of seven years doesn't seem like a huge number. I don't mean to minimize this (one death is obviously one too many) but what is the denominator in this equation? How many people participated in triathlons over this period? I suppose it could be many hundreds of thousands. So this may be in the range of under a tenth of 1 percent. I wonder how this ranks up against deaths in adult basketball leagues (which can be brutally tough) or downhill skiing. Again, all of these situations are tragic so don't get me wrong. But I worry that as triathlon becomes more popular there will be sensational press stories that try to tear the sport down. Many of you probably saw this Bloomberg story, which seemed pretty thinly researched: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-06-20/men-over-40-should-think-t... Pretty much this ^^ for me. I see it as a non-issue. In fact, I'm willing to bet the number of deaths stay about the same despite efforts to "make it more safe". People die....active people tend to die being active....the numbers stay the same. Agreed or x2 take your pick I wonder how many people have died on the couch watching TV in the last year? |
| 2013-10-21 7:18 AM in reply to: 0 |
Expert 1263 Wendell, NC | Subject: RE: Outside the Lines Article on Triathlon Swimming Deaths In response to your observation about law suits, Americans (in general) are total weenies when it comes to personal responsibility for ones actions and the risks of living. It makes me sad. Edited by La Tortuga 2013-10-21 7:18 AM |
| 2013-10-21 9:59 AM in reply to: La Tortuga |
Master 2500 Crab Cake City | Subject: RE: Outside the Lines Article on Triathlon Swimming Deaths Interesting article for sure. Even more interesting is that two of my friends from my Tri Club are pictured in the IMLP swim start photo |
| 2013-10-21 10:37 AM in reply to: pfomalont |
Champion 6962 Atlanta, Ga | Subject: RE: Outside the Lines Article on Triathlon Swimming Deaths My honest take on it is this: If athletes took the time to actually properly progress in the sport we would not have these issues. No need for the EKG and other 'tests' before racing. 1st season: Sprints only 2nd season: Sprints & Olympics 3rd season: Half Ironman 4th season: Entertain the idea of a full You don't put a student driver in a Ferrari on the Autoban. Same concept. |
| 2013-10-21 10:58 AM in reply to: Marvarnett |
 Bronze member | Subject: RE: Outside the Lines Article on Triathlon Swimming Deaths Originally posted by Marvarnett My honest take on it is this: If athletes took the time to actually properly progress in the sport we would not have these issues. No need for the EKG and other 'tests' before racing. 1st season: Sprints only 2nd season: Sprints & Olympics 3rd season: Half Ironman 4th season: Entertain the idea of a full You don't put a student driver in a Ferrari on the Autoban. Same concept. I agree with you. What is your opinion about athletes who are really strong in one particular sport? An example, I have 3 friends who are strong athletes but each in their own way and they all have their sites set on a HIM next June. One is a very experienced marathon runner - she just ran 3:02 in Chicago. Another is a strong swimmer, swam competitive in college and coaches the local swim team, the other owns a gym and has experience bike racing. All are solid, goal oriented, strong athletes but they have zero experience racing triathlon and have significant weaknesses (swimming being the weakness for 2 of them) in at least one of the other sports. They are going to do what they are going to do but I WISH they would see the sport as more than just a distance.
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| 2013-10-21 11:05 AM in reply to: Marvarnett |
Champion 11989 Philly 'burbs | Subject: RE: Outside the Lines Article on Triathlon Swimming Deaths Originally posted by Marvarnett My honest take on it is this: If athletes took the time to actually properly progress in the sport we would not have these issues. No need for the EKG and other 'tests' before racing. 1st season: Sprints only 2nd season: Sprints & Olympics 3rd season: Half Ironman 4th season: Entertain the idea of a full You don't put a student driver in a Ferrari on the Autoban. Same concept.
Interesting take. That's pretty much the approach I took, except that I entertained the idea of IM before I ever did my first tri. Then I built towards that distance over 4 years. Had some bad swim experiences early on, especially in my first race, but by the time I got to IM I was good to go. |
| 2013-10-21 11:23 AM in reply to: mrbbrad |
| 553 St Catharines, Ontario | Subject: RE: Outside the Lines Article on Triathlon Swimming Deaths At the American College of Cardiology 2009 Scientific Sessions, cardiologist Dr. Kevin Harris and his colleagues presented a study in which they determined competing in triathlons to be more dangerous than running marathons. They found that 1.5 sudden deaths occur for every 100,000 participants in triathlons. “Comparatively, a study by Dr Donald Redelmeier (University of Toronto, ON) of more than three million marathon runners showed the rate of sudden cardiac death to be 0.8/100 000 participants.” What causes death among marathon runners? Coach Joe English of Portland, Ore., identified four major circumstances, which he discusses in depth on his blog. These are: “heart disease in runners over 35 years; genetic heart defects in runners under 35; hyponatremia or low blood sodium levels; and heat related illnesses, such as heat stroke.” According to the U.S. National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA), in 2006, 13.10 cars out of 100,000 ended up in fatal crashes. The rate for motorcycles is 72.34 per 100,000 registered motorcycles. Greater risk driving to your event then taking part in it. |
| 2013-10-21 11:36 AM in reply to: halfironmike |
Champion 6046 New York, NY | Subject: RE: Outside the Lines Article on Triathlon Swimming Deaths Originally posted by halfironmike I'm no math whiz, but 44 swim deaths over the course of seven years doesn't seem like a huge number. I don't mean to minimize this (one death is obviously one too many) but what is the denominator in this equation? How many people participated in triathlons over this period? I suppose it could be many hundreds of thousands. So this may be in the range of under a tenth of 1 percent. I wonder how this ranks up against deaths in adult basketball leagues (which can be brutally tough) or downhill skiing. Again, all of these situations are tragic so don't get me wrong. But I worry that as triathlon becomes more popular there will be sensational press stories that try to tear the sport down. Many of you probably saw this Bloomberg story, which seemed pretty thinly researched: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-06-20/men-over-40-should-think-t... I think the issue is when you compare it to marathon deaths which are at a much lower rate the concerns are of what is going on in the swim and can we do anything to help mitigate the risk - which I do not think is unreasonable. will I stop? no do I understand the risks? yes |
| 2013-10-21 11:41 AM in reply to: Marvarnett |
Champion 19812 MA | Subject: RE: Outside the Lines Article on Triathlon Swimming Deaths Originally posted by Marvarnett My honest take on it is this: If athletes took the time to actually properly progress in the sport we would not have these issues. No need for the EKG and other 'tests' before racing. 1st season: Sprints only 2nd season: Sprints & Olympics 3rd season: Half Ironman 4th season: Entertain the idea of a full You don't put a student driver in a Ferrari on the Autoban. Same concept. I agree with the progress of building into the sport. Yet some of the deaths in tri swims have been experienced triathletes (last year at AG National for example) not newbies doing a race perhaps over their ability/experience. |
| 2013-10-21 11:54 AM in reply to: badmo77a |
| 83 | Subject: RE: Outside the Lines Article on Triathlon Swimming Deaths Originally posted by badmo77a At the American College of Cardiology 2009 Scientific Sessions, cardiologist Dr. Kevin Harris and his colleagues presented a study in which they determined competing in triathlons to be more dangerous than running marathons. They found that 1.5 sudden deaths occur for every 100,000 participants in triathlons. It's good to see some actual data here. Thanks for sharing. Does anyone know of comparable info on basketball, tennis, skydiving or other sports? It would be great to find out the comparative numbers. Having said all this, I definitely understand why the swim can be particularly troublesome for some people. It's probably the weakest sport for most triathletes, and swimming laps in a pool is not sufficient preparation for the unmitigated chaos of an OWS. I'm lucky -- my brother was about my age growing up and we spent most of our summers wrestling and trying to drown each other at the local community pool. That kind of rough-housing in the water came in useful when I got into this sport. |
| 2013-10-21 12:05 PM in reply to: halfironmike |
Pro 5361 | Subject: RE: Outside the Lines Article on Triathlon Swimming Deaths you would think that Tri's are a lot safer than my other sport <<<------------ (see avatar) but I've had a lot more "holy $hit I almost died" experiences while cycling (including recently during a race), than I do flying. |
 2013-10-21 12:31 PM in reply to: 0 |
| Subject: ... This user's post has been ignored. Edited by Fred D 2013-10-21 12:33 PM |
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