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Men win 2nd-5th place at Nike Women's Half Marathon SF (Page 4)
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 2013-10-24 10:26 PM in reply to: TriMyBest |
Pro  15655    |  Subject: RE: Men win 2nd-5th place at Nike Women's Half Marathon SFOriginally posted by TriMyBest Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by Goosedog Originally posted by Left Brain It's the whole reason white males are not included, by law, as a class of people who can be discriminated against. Say what? HA!! Yeah, that didn't come out right, I guess I was laughing too hard. I'm showing my age, but back in the days of Affirmative Action there was frequently two or even more sets of standards for hiring, at least in the govt. sector, in order to insure that AA worked and minorities and members of other legally defined "classes" were hired. Lots of white males whined about it and called it "reverse discrimination" or something equally laughable. I just think it's funny when white guys start hollering about discrimination by women, minorities, etc.......looking back over our history it's hard to call foul.
My wife works for the government. She has an employee who is very intelligent, reliable, and hard working, does an excellent job overall, and performs well above and beyond expectations. Based on job performance, she has determined that this person has earned a promotion and/or raise. Based on that information alone, they should receive the promotion/raise. Unfortunately for this employee they were born a white male. She has been trying to reward this guy for his past and ongoing performance for nearly 18 months, but she isn't permitted to because of his gender and ethnicity. HR consistently pressures her to make management decisions based on gender and ethnicity rather than basing them on skills and job performance of her staff or any other relevant factors. Isn't that the very definition of discrimination? Please explain to me why that's acceptable, how the guy in this example isn't being discriminated against, and why he deserves to be punished for the sins of people who lived in the past and quite possibly have no ancestral connection to him whatsoever? No matter how hard I try, I haven't been able to get my mind around this.
Don - my wife is a manager for social security.....every time I visit her office I have the same standing joke......"hey, where are ya'll hiding all the white guys?" I've never had a problem with it being fair.......It just seems to me that it's all part of evening up the playing field. I'm good with it. I've raised my own son with the idea that he's going to really have to shine to be successful.....I'm good with that too. |
| 2013-10-24 10:52 PM in reply to: Left Brain |
Expert 2192  Greenville, SC | Subject: RE: Men win 2nd-5th place at Nike Women's Half Marathon SF this thread is oppressing me. |
| 2013-10-25 6:55 AM in reply to: Left Brain |
Member 1748 Exton, PA | Subject: RE: Men win 2nd-5th place at Nike Women's Half Marathon SF I have no problem with having a womens only race, as long as they still allow men to enter it. If its for marketing and will get people active that would not normally then that is great. To say that the white male has oppressed every other race and gender for years and now deserves to be oppressed is ridiculus. I think if the white men here had lost they jobs which they were good at and could not feed there families because they were "white males" and a bunch of incompetent employees kept their jobs because of race or gender you would be singing a different tune. So the race did not discriminate however, many people on BT apparently are ok with discrimination. LB is either feeding this thread for fun or leading the march??? |
| 2013-10-25 7:07 AM in reply to: mike761 |
| 489 | Subject: RE: Men win 2nd-5th place at Nike Women's Half Marathon SF I’m a white male in my 30s and I’ve no problem being discriminated against. If someone doesn’t want me at their party then I don’t want to go. If someone doesn’t want to give me a job or a promotion then it’s up to me to be good enough to work somewhere else or set something up by myself. |
| 2013-10-25 7:29 AM in reply to: 0 |
Resident Curmudgeon 25290 The Road Back Gold member | Subject: RE: Men win 2nd-5th place at Nike Women's Half Marathon SF Originally posted by Dan-L I’m a white male in my 30s and I’ve no problem being discriminated against. If someone doesn’t want me at their party then I don’t want to go. If someone doesn’t want to give me a job or a promotion then it’s up to me to be good enough to work somewhere else or set something up by myself. So what about if the discrimination is widespread and opportunities for you to work or set something else by yourself are limited? What if compensation is below that of other groups for the same work? Kind of like what women face, even now? Are you still OK with discrimination when you experience it everywhere you turn? Edited by the bear 2013-10-25 7:29 AM |
| 2013-10-25 7:36 AM in reply to: Dan-L |
Member 1748 Exton, PA | Subject: RE: Men win 2nd-5th place at Nike Women's Half Marathon SF Originally posted by Dan-L I’m a white male in my 30s and I’ve no problem being discriminated against. If someone doesn’t want me at their party then I don’t want to go. If someone doesn’t want to give me a job or a promotion then it’s up to me to be good enough to work somewhere else or set something up by myself. So you don't mind when the black man/women/Asian/etc.. in the office next you comes into work goes to sleep for 8 hrs and then goes home everyday. Receive twice your pay and bonuses for the year. While you have to work hard for 10 hrs a day for half the money and no bonus? |
| 2013-10-25 8:02 AM in reply to: 0 |
Member 5452 NC | Subject: RE: Men win 2nd-5th place at Nike Women's Half Marathon SF Originally posted by Dan-L I’m a white male in my 30s and I’ve no problem being discriminated against. If someone doesn’t want me at their party then I don’t want to go. If someone doesn’t want to give me a job or a promotion then it’s up to me to be good enough to work somewhere else or set something up by myself. What does your particular age, race or gender have to do with your willingness to be discriminated against in violation of the law? I'm not talking about a race, but your examples of a job or promotion. ETA: Sorry, just realized I was piling on - but still. Edited by Goosedog 2013-10-25 8:02 AM |
| 2013-10-25 8:12 AM in reply to: Tribreitz |
Pro 5169 Burbs | Subject: RE: Men win 2nd-5th place at Nike Women's Half Marathon SF Originally posted by Tribreitz White males have been marginalizing races, classes, and women for hundreds of years. We (white straight males) have more power in out society than any other group. We have no right to complain when other groups want to marginalize us, or society its built around our norms and expectations, our whole society is marginalizing them. Exactly. It's like whining that there is no "white history month."
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| 2013-10-25 8:22 AM in reply to: mike761 |
| 489 | Subject: RE: Men win 2nd-5th place at Nike Women's Half Marathon SF Originally posted by mike761 Originally posted by Dan-L I’m a white male in my 30s and I’ve no problem being discriminated against. If someone doesn’t want me at their party then I don’t want to go. If someone doesn’t want to give me a job or a promotion then it’s up to me to be good enough to work somewhere else or set something up by myself. So you don't mind when the black man/women/Asian/etc.. in the office next you comes into work goes to sleep for 8 hrs and then goes home everyday. Receive twice your pay and bonuses for the year. While you have to work hard for 10 hrs a day for half the money and no bonus? Couldn’t care less. I’ll take care of my business and they can take care of theirs. While it might cause some short term issues I think the best people get the best out in the long run. Companies or individuals who discriminate will not succeed in the long run. I’d rather their discrimination was nice and blatant so I could see it loud and clear without having to work in a company that has all the nice shiny policies and tub thumping speeches but behind closed doors is as bad as they have ever been. Working in England I have the class system to fight against which means where you went to school and who your Dad knows can be the most important thing to people. I’ve seen people be given jobs, opportunities and promotions on this basis whereas someone from my background and no connections gets ignored. So I leave. Immediately. And go somewhere where I don’t think it happens. Funny enough, I’ve only ever worked for one company that I believe really subscribes to equality and it’s American. And that’s why I’ve been here so long (ten years). Promotions are based on performance and reward on achievement. All I ask for it fair, the only place I’ve seen it is here. |
| 2013-10-25 8:25 AM in reply to: the bear |
| 489 | Subject: RE: Men win 2nd-5th place at Nike Women's Half Marathon SF Originally posted by the bear Originally posted by Dan-L I’m a white male in my 30s and I’ve no problem being discriminated against. If someone doesn’t want me at their party then I don’t want to go. If someone doesn’t want to give me a job or a promotion then it’s up to me to be good enough to work somewhere else or set something up by myself. So what about if the discrimination is widespread and opportunities for you to work or set something else by yourself are limited? What if compensation is below that of other groups for the same work? Kind of like what women face, even now? Are you still OK with discrimination when you experience it everywhere you turn? No. But the answer isn’t more discrimination through quota’s and forced diversity. We have the same with ‘foreigners’ taking jobs. I don’t care how many people apply for a job, if I’m not the best person, don’t give it to me. It’s up to me to make sure I’m the best person. |
| 2013-10-25 9:18 AM in reply to: Batcheldor |
| 631 | Subject: RE: Men win 2nd-5th place at Nike Women's Half Marathon SF Originally posted by Batcheldor I'll bite. Americans supposedly love a flat playing field, and some of us like to pretend that all discrimination is equal. It is not. Years of discrimination against women in sports lead to less attention, less money, and less respect for women in sports. How are male atheletes negatively impacted by having a race tailored to a specific gender? Simple: they are not. Discrimination is as bad as it's impact, and I don't see male atheletes being negatively impacted by female-specific races. This is seen in HS sports quite a bit. Title 9 started in the 70. Since then you have seen a lot more girl sports. But because the # need to be somewhat level and football accounts for such large number you will see schools offer some sports only for females. You see enough examples of girls playing football and wrestling. But what you also see is that schools only offer F swimming but allow boys to participate. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/19/sports/boys-swimming-on-girls-tea... |
| 2013-10-25 9:21 AM in reply to: the bear |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Men win 2nd-5th place at Nike Women's Half Marathon SF Originally posted by the bear Originally posted by Dan-L I’m a white male in my 30s and I’ve no problem being discriminated against. If someone doesn’t want me at their party then I don’t want to go. If someone doesn’t want to give me a job or a promotion then it’s up to me to be good enough to work somewhere else or set something up by myself. So what about if the discrimination is widespread and opportunities for you to work or set something else by yourself are limited? What if compensation is below that of other groups for the same work? Kind of like what women face, even now? Are you still OK with discrimination when you experience it everywhere you turn? I guess I wouldn't be, but as a white male in the U.S. I'm certainly not discriminated against, and my opportunities are certainly not limited, and my compensation is certainly not below other groups......too bad women and minorities still can't make that same statement. |
| 2013-10-25 9:52 AM in reply to: Left Brain |
Extreme Veteran 1190 Silicon Valley | Subject: RE: Men win 2nd-5th place at Nike Women's Half Marathon SF First you need to remember that this happened in my home state where things work differently than the sane world. A few years ago an attorney sued the Oakland A's for discrimination because he went to a game on Mother's Day where they were giving away hats to the women and they refused to give him one. In case you are not familiar ... he WON! As for being discriminatory, by its purest definition it may be. By any reasonable standard it is not. If there were no alternatives for male runners I could see the argument but that is clearly not the case. Remember, discrimination has two meanings. The one being bandied about here refers to unfair treatment because of some distinguishing characteristic. However, there is a simpler definition as well. That being the recognition and understanding of the difference between one thing and another. Surprise, men and women are different. When I was in High School back in the stone age we had a girl on the boys swim team because we didn't have a girls team. She only swam her freshman year because after that the male physiology really began to separate the boys times from hers but at 14 she was competitive. Just an FYI, we also had a blind swimmer on our team. He only swam breaststroke where he could touch the wall with each stroke. Bottom line for me is if I am going to scream discrimination I will choose my battles far more carefully than worrying about a women's only race. As has been said several times here, if this get more women participating then let's do more of them. |
| 2013-10-25 11:09 AM in reply to: #4883475 |
Veteran 148 | Subject: RE: Men win 2nd-5th place at Nike Women's Half Marathon SF So.....men took 2 thru 5th. Who won a woman????? If so kudos to her, and to the men who were then publicly chicked on the podium....lol!!!!!!! I WOULD dp a womens only race, """"they have the best pace booty.""" |
| 2013-10-25 11:32 AM in reply to: Left Brain |
Expert 2373 Floriduh | Subject: RE: Men win 2nd-5th place at Nike Women's Half Marathon SF Disney has a HM in Feb geared to women (Princess Half). I ran this a couple of years ago with my daughter and have run it every year since. To make sure women only place in this race I don't think that any men are in the first two corrals. The caliber of women in this race are so good that no way any man is going to make up a 20 min or so head start. Seems fair to me. |
| 2013-10-25 12:49 PM in reply to: TriMyBest |
Sensei Sin City | Subject: RE: Men win 2nd-5th place at Nike Women's Half Marathon SF Originally posted by TriMyBest Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by Goosedog Originally posted by Left Brain It's the whole reason white males are not included, by law, as a class of people who can be discriminated against. Say what? HA!! Yeah, that didn't come out right, I guess I was laughing too hard. I'm showing my age, but back in the days of Affirmative Action there was frequently two or even more sets of standards for hiring, at least in the govt. sector, in order to insure that AA worked and minorities and members of other legally defined "classes" were hired. Lots of white males whined about it and called it "reverse discrimination" or something equally laughable. I just think it's funny when white guys start hollering about discrimination by women, minorities, etc.......looking back over our history it's hard to call foul.
My wife works for the government. She has an employee who is very intelligent, reliable, and hard working, does an excellent job overall, and performs well above and beyond expectations. Based on job performance, she has determined that this person has earned a promotion and/or raise. Based on that information alone, they should receive the promotion/raise. Unfortunately for this employee they were born a white male. She has been trying to reward this guy for his past and ongoing performance for nearly 18 months, but she isn't permitted to because of his gender and ethnicity. HR consistently pressures her to make management decisions based on gender and ethnicity rather than basing them on skills and job performance of her staff or any other relevant factors. Isn't that the very definition of discrimination? Please explain to me why that's acceptable, how the guy in this example isn't being discriminated against, and why he deserves to be punished for the sins of people who lived in the past and quite possibly have no ancestral connection to him whatsoever? No matter how hard I try, I haven't been able to get my mind around this.
Unfortunate? Yeah, in some cases, where the government is trying balance things out and trying to fix or play catch-up, there will be some people that in a particular instance like this, get the short end of the stick. But being a white male, and the last 200 years, a white AMERICAN male is practically winning the genetic lottery. If that happened to me, I would also be upset and think it unfair. Probably look for another job. But in NO WAY would I ever think being born a white American male is unfortunate. When I hear white men complaining (like other have mentioned the example of BET)? Seems a little cry baby. If there is a BET, why not a WET? We do, the 900 other channels on TV. If there is a black history month why not a white history month? We do, it's call March through January. If there is a women's only race why can't there be a men's only race? Well for most of history, it WAS men only and is STILL mostly men. Just some fact. First black Olympian was in the 1904 games. Women first participated in 1900. They got to vote in 1920. African Americans got the first vote in 1870. It's almost like if a football team won the Superbowl for 100 years in a row, then a rule change happened and they still GOT to the superbowl but lost, start crying about how unfair the rules are.
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| 2013-10-25 1:48 PM in reply to: Oysterboy |
Master 1681 Rural Ontario | Subject: RE: Men win 2nd-5th place at Nike Women's Half Marathon SF Originally posted by Oysterboy Disney has a HM in Feb geared to women (Princess Half). To make sure women only place in this race I don't think that any men are in the first two corrals. The caliber of women in this race are so good that no way any man is going to make up a 20 min or so head start. Seems fair to me. Maybe there should also be a "Caucasian Half-Marathon"... now, we're modern, open minded people so we let other races enter, but we put them in later corrals and award only on gun-times so only the whites place... The minute such a race was announced, it would be headline news on every media outlet. |
| 2013-10-25 1:52 PM in reply to: mgalanter |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Men win 2nd-5th place at Nike Women's Half Marathon SF Originally posted by mgalanter Originally posted by Oysterboy Disney has a HM in Feb geared to women (Princess Half). To make sure women only place in this race I don't think that any men are in the first two corrals. The caliber of women in this race are so good that no way any man is going to make up a 20 min or so head start. Seems fair to me. Maybe there should also be a "Caucasian Half-Marathon"... now, we're modern, open minded people so we let other races enter, but we put them in later corrals and award only on gun-times so only the whites place... The minute such a race was announced, it would be headline news on every media outlet. We've had plenty of events in our history that were "white only"......that's what got us to this point. You might say it already made "headline news". |
| 2013-10-25 2:26 PM in reply to: msteiner |
| 553 St Catharines, Ontario | Subject: RE: Men win 2nd-5th place at Nike Women's Half Marathon SF Originally posted by msteiner Originally posted by trishie Originally posted by mike761 Originally posted by TriMyBest The only issue I have with women only events is that if someone organized a men only event, people would say it was discrimination. This^^^^ Womens only races are discrimination! It's not like the open events don't have categories for women. Really? Discrimination? Yes, really. Women only races are ridiculous. They already have plenty of women's only events called "color runs". I did a colour run last weekend. Facebook central. I had fun. And so did my kids. Did not look at any pace booty. I did. :-) |
| 2013-10-25 2:34 PM in reply to: Tribreitz |
Champion 11989 Philly 'burbs | Subject: RE: Men win 2nd-5th place at Nike Women's Half Marathon SF Originally posted by Tribreitz We have no right to complain when other groups want to marginalize us, Sure we do. |
| 2013-10-25 2:44 PM in reply to: mrbbrad |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Men win 2nd-5th place at Nike Women's Half Marathon SF Originally posted by mrbbrad Originally posted by Tribreitz We have no right to complain when other groups want to marginalize us, Sure we do. Exactly. If we take away the white guy's right to whine entire suburban neighborhoods will come crashing down. |
| 2013-10-25 3:09 PM in reply to: Dan-L |
Member 1748 Exton, PA | Subject: RE: Men win 2nd-5th place at Nike Women's Half Marathon SF Originally posted by Dan-L Originally posted by the bear Originally posted by Dan-L I’m a white male in my 30s and I’ve no problem being discriminated against. If someone doesn’t want me at their party then I don’t want to go. If someone doesn’t want to give me a job or a promotion then it’s up to me to be good enough to work somewhere else or set something up by myself. So what about if the discrimination is widespread and opportunities for you to work or set something else by yourself are limited? What if compensation is below that of other groups for the same work? Kind of like what women face, even now? Are you still OK with discrimination when you experience it everywhere you turn? No. But the answer isn’t more discrimination through quota’s and forced diversity. We have the same with ‘foreigners’ taking jobs. I don’t care how many people apply for a job, if I’m not the best person, don’t give it to me. It’s up to me to make sure I’m the best person. Here is a perfect example of someone who does not understand what discrimination is. If we discriminate against you, you will not get the job even if you are the best. |
| 2013-10-25 3:12 PM in reply to: mike761 |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Men win 2nd-5th place at Nike Women's Half Marathon SF Originally posted by mike761 Originally posted by Dan-L Here is a perfect example of someone who does not understand what discrimination is. If we discriminate against you, you will not get the job even if you are the best. Originally posted by the bear No. But the answer isn’t more discrimination through quota’s and forced diversity. We have the same with ‘foreigners’ taking jobs. I don’t care how many people apply for a job, if I’m not the best person, don’t give it to me. It’s up to me to make sure I’m the best person. Originally posted by Dan-L I’m a white male in my 30s and I’ve no problem being discriminated against. If someone doesn’t want me at their party then I don’t want to go. If someone doesn’t want to give me a job or a promotion then it’s up to me to be good enough to work somewhere else or set something up by myself. So what about if the discrimination is widespread and opportunities for you to work or set something else by yourself are limited? What if compensation is below that of other groups for the same work? Kind of like what women face, even now? Are you still OK with discrimination when you experience it everywhere you turn? You'd have to quantify "best". Maybe the best candidate adds some diversity to the picture regardless of who finishes "first". |
| 2013-10-25 3:31 PM in reply to: 0 |
Extreme Veteran 1190 Silicon Valley | Subject: RE: Men win 2nd-5th place at Nike Women's Half Marathon SF Quoted from above: "Here is a perfect example of someone who does not understand what discrimination is. If we discriminate against you, you will not get the job even if you are the best." This is the one constant argument that we used to struggle with when I was on a Diversity Counsel for a Fortune 50 bank. When do you apply a 'preference', a kinder more PC name for discrimination, to achieve the ultimate objective of being the best company you can be? Two quick examples: 1) They had an HR team of about 20 people, all female. Because of the big diversity kick they were constantly after the HR Director to get some men on the team. The problem was twofold. (A) If they got 50 applications for an open position it would be good if one was from a male and a miracle if two were. It is and was an occupation dominated by women. (B) If they were to select a man simply because of his gender were they hiring the best person for the job? Hiring someone by preference because they met the minimum qualifications for the job instead of the person with the best qualifications for the job is a recipe for mediocrity. 2) At the time the cover of the annual report was entirely old white guys. So many were clamoring for that picture to be more diverse immediately. So that led to questions like (A) What does a religious minority look like? (B) What does a gay or lesbian look like? (C) if the people next in line are also old white guys who are doing a good job, do you discriminate against them by intentionally promoting someone over them even if they were not as qualified. Again, a recipe for mediocrity. Erasing years/decades/centuries of discrimination is not as simple as affirmative action and changing the faces. To my mind, if you want to really make things equal, start in grade school. Make sure every child who wants to learn has an equal opportunity to learn and thrive. Give the children an equal opportunity to compete all the way through school and in the job market and they land where their talent will take them. Trying to force a preferenced student into Harvard Law School is decades too late. Edited by Stuartap 2013-10-25 3:33 PM |
| 2013-10-25 4:05 PM in reply to: Stuartap |
Regular 5477 LHOTP | Subject: RE: Men win 2nd-5th place at Nike Women's Half Marathon SF Originally posted by Stuartap Quoted from above: "Here is a perfect example of someone who does not understand what discrimination is. If we discriminate against you, you will not get the job even if you are the best." Agree. When this goes wrong, and sometimes it does go wrong, then you can end up having "preferenced" students who consistently underperform compared to their peers. I'm not sure how this helps anything, and, unfortunately, the very things that it sets out to ameliorate are negatively reinforced. |
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