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2014-04-13 11:34 AM
in reply to: WaterRat

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Subject: RE: Week 13 - Last Tests!
Originally posted by WaterRat

Knocked out the hard 20 min test this morning and had a solid performance. Started at my old 20 min test power and eased it up gradually until the last 5 min where I made an aggressive push. Max heart rate was 174 which is right in line with my last 20 min test so I feel I gave it the same effort and I feel I was pretty much toasted at the end. I'll give a day or 2 of rest and hit the 5 min to see what the new CP is. Like everyone else, I really appreciate the time the mentors have spent with this group. I know my gains would not be nearly as impressive without their input.

Old 20 Min test: 254

New 20 Minute test on virtual power: 273 (19 Watt Gain WOOHOO!!!!)
New 20 Minute Test on Power2Max: 242

Have a good Sunday.

Ron


Congratulations !

What was your original 20' test ? 234 ?


2014-04-13 11:10 PM
in reply to: marcag


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Subject: RE: Week 13 - Last Tests!
Originally posted by marcag

Originally posted by WaterRat

Knocked out the hard 20 min test this morning and had a solid performance. Started at my old 20 min test power and eased it up gradually until the last 5 min where I made an aggressive push. Max heart rate was 174 which is right in line with my last 20 min test so I feel I gave it the same effort and I feel I was pretty much toasted at the end. I'll give a day or 2 of rest and hit the 5 min to see what the new CP is. Like everyone else, I really appreciate the time the mentors have spent with this group. I know my gains would not be nearly as impressive without their input.

Old 20 Min test: 254

New 20 Minute test on virtual power: 273 (19 Watt Gain WOOHOO!!!!)
New 20 Minute Test on Power2Max: 242

Have a good Sunday.

Ron


Congratulations !

What was your original 20' test ? 234 ?


Indeed, 234 was the start. So I've seen a 39 watt increase in 13 weeks for the 20' test. That's about 17%. Stoked with that.

Ron
2014-04-14 5:51 AM
in reply to: WaterRat

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Subject: RE: Week 13 - Last Tests!
Ron, that is huge! Congrats! Man, I wish I could get 15! You are going to be a totally different rider this year with that number.
2014-04-14 9:54 AM
in reply to: JAYCT


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Subject: RE: Week 13 - Last Tests!

I still haven't tested. I somehow convinced myself that I wanted to save a bit for my past Sunday race, and avoid any "all out" efforts during last week, as much as I wanted to test and all

I actually do want to see my results.

I will test as soon as I can fit it into my schedule, but I have just under 3 weeks until my 70.3, and want to get every last key workout in. I plan on 2 more long rides 3 to 4 hours, 2 more sweetspot workouts, and 2 more 2 x 20 threshold workouts, then a bit of a taper. If on any day in between I feel good, I may try to throw in a test.

The 70.3 is just a prep race for IMMT, but I still want to perform as well as I can.

I just want to thank Marc and Shane, and every other knowledgeable individual who chimed in on this thread. I have to say this group was huge for me. I have far more insight into training with power, and frankly, far more insight on how to train on a bike period. Thank you all so much.
2014-04-14 11:28 AM
in reply to: WaterRat

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Subject: RE: Week 13 - Last Tests!

Originally posted by WaterRat Indeed, 234 was the start. So I've seen a 39 watt increase in 13 weeks for the 20' test. That's about 17%. Stoked with that. Ron

Fantastic.  39 watts is huge!  I would be thrilled with an increase of between 20 and 25 watts on the 20' test.  Well done.

I was planning on doing the 20' test over the weekend but got sidetracked.  Hopefully either tomorrow or Wednesday.

 

2014-04-14 12:37 PM
in reply to: Scott71

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Subject: RE: Week 13 - Last Tests!

Congrats, Ron -- that's a HUGE improvement!!

Originally posted by Scott71

Originally posted by WaterRat Indeed, 234 was the start. So I've seen a 39 watt increase in 13 weeks for the 20' test. That's about 17%. Stoked with that. Ron

Fantastic.  39 watts is huge!  I would be thrilled with an increase of between 20 and 25 watts on the 20' test.  Well done.

I was planning on doing the 20' test over the weekend but got sidetracked.  Hopefully either tomorrow or Wednesday.

 

I'll be thrilled with any increase!  I plan on testing a couple weeks after my race (which might not be ideal, given taper and recovery....but we'll see).  I'm already kinda dreading the pain!



2014-04-14 2:01 PM
in reply to: ligersandtions

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Subject: RE: Week 13 - Last Tests!
Congrats to Jason (JAYCT) for winning the Zwiedzanie Bethel Cat 5 Crit Sunday. Impressive speed considering all those laps/turns.
2014-04-14 6:20 PM
in reply to: WaterRat

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Subject: RE: Week 13 - Last Tests!


It's great to see the improvements. I hope we will all post our final test results with improvements from the beginning.

It would also be great to see how these translate to race results, so please keep us up to date.

2014-04-15 7:50 AM
in reply to: marcag

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Subject: RE: Week 13 - Last Tests!
Originally posted by marcag



It's great to see the improvements. I hope we will all post our final test results with improvements from the beginning.

It would also be great to see how these translate to race results, so please keep us up to date.




I really dread retesting but will likely give it a go next week. I spent last week on vacation with the family and he best I was able to do was squeeze in a couple runs. Had a nice hard run on Sunday and cycled for the first time in 1 1/2 weeks this morning. I formally begin a HIM training program next week but am trying to mimic week 1 starting today. Legs definitely felt a bit dead this morning.
2014-04-15 8:55 AM
in reply to: marcag

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Subject: RE: Week 13 - Last Tests!

Originally posted by marcag It's great to see the improvements. I hope we will all post our final test results with improvements from the beginning. It would also be great to see how these translate to race results, so please keep us up to date.
I've been lurking and have revamped my training.  Did the week 7 testing at the beginning of the month, 5' VP was 279W and 20' VP was 239W for a new CP of 226W.  Week 1 had 5' at 258W and 20' at 221W and CP of 209W so had a 17W CP increase.  The 2nd 20' test was not ideal as the training was way down in volume post HIM and I did it after spending a hot day on a pool deck for the kids swim meet it was still warm and mucky when I did it.  I can't count how many times I wanted to quit but I somehow held on for a pretty lack luster result.  I know I'm at least 5W stronger than that but I've gone with it as is.

I've incorporated a 10 day cycle for my training so that I can fit in 4 days of cycling along with 4 days of running and 3-4 days of swimming.  This will allow me to complete all the planned power training weeks with 3 power trainer workouts with 1 long outdoor ride, and perform the final testing before my sprint A-race on June 2nd.  I have high expectations for the race this year, last year I set a course PR & bike PR (23.2 mph) using part of the BT cycling plan and I'm way ahead of last year so far this year.

2014-04-16 5:30 AM
in reply to: Donto

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Subject: RE: Week 13 - Last Tests!


I am probably going to make the move to shorter cranks.

I have been doing some position testing and it looks like I can squeeze a few watts out. Looks like about 7 or 8

I will probably change the arms of my Quarq. Should be fun. I never took a Quarq apart. I hope there are no parts left over at the end.


2014-04-16 6:45 AM
in reply to: marcag

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Subject: RE: Week 13 - Last Tests!
Originally posted by marcag



I am probably going to make the move to shorter cranks.

I have been doing some position testing and it looks like I can squeeze a few watts out. Looks like about 7 or 8

I will probably change the arms of my Quarq. Should be fun. I never took a Quarq apart. I hope there are no parts left over at the end.



Marc,

Maybe I missed it but how were you testing? Did you have a bunch of different crank arms or do you have access to variable length cranks? I also assume that you were adjusting your position as you changed the length so that your position stayed similar in terms of your upper body but your lower body would have seen some changes (like more clearance at the top of the pedal stroke)?

Shane
2014-04-16 7:12 AM
in reply to: gsmacleod

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Subject: RE: Week 13 - Last Tests!
Originally posted by gsmacleod

Originally posted by marcag



I am probably going to make the move to shorter cranks.

I have been doing some position testing and it looks like I can squeeze a few watts out. Looks like about 7 or 8

I will probably change the arms of my Quarq. Should be fun. I never took a Quarq apart. I hope there are no parts left over at the end.



Marc,

Maybe I missed it but how were you testing? Did you have a bunch of different crank arms or do you have access to variable length cranks? I also assume that you were adjusting your position as you changed the length so that your position stayed similar in terms of your upper body but your lower body would have seen some changes (like more clearance at the top of the pedal stroke)?

Shane


Two sets of cranks on the Computrainer

The only change I make is raising the seat 7.5mm to compensate for the 7.5mm crank length difference so I get a more open hip angle.


2014-04-16 7:23 AM
in reply to: marcag

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Subject: RE: Week 13 - Last Tests!
Originally posted by marcag


Two sets of cranks on the Computrainer

The only change I make is raising the seat 7.5mm to compensate for the 7.5mm crank length difference so I get a more open hip angle.


Interesting - so I assume you are going from 172.5mm to 165mm?

Very interesting to see the difference - do you have pictures of the differences? I think it would be interesting to see the difference in the hip so people can see what a difference of 15mm at the top of the pedal stroke looks like for those 7W.

Shane
2014-04-16 7:33 AM
in reply to: gsmacleod

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Subject: RE: Week 13 - Last Tests!
Originally posted by gsmacleod

Originally posted by marcag


Two sets of cranks on the Computrainer

The only change I make is raising the seat 7.5mm to compensate for the 7.5mm crank length difference so I get a more open hip angle.


Interesting - so I assume you are going from 172.5mm to 165mm?

Very interesting to see the difference - do you have pictures of the differences? I think it would be interesting to see the difference in the hip so people can see what a difference of 15mm at the top of the pedal stroke looks like for those 7W.

Shane


I should take pictures

THis is how I did it

I noticed two things
1) My HR goes up 3bpm per 10 watt. This is almost like clockwork
2) When I sit up, my HR goes down 3bpm, aero, up....like clockwork.

I have seen these two things dozens and dozens of times

I always felt my roadie FTP was 10watts less than my aero


So, I use the Computrainer. 10' intervals increasing 10watts per step.

10' at 180w, 10' at 190w.......
In a 10' segment, 5' is in aero, 5' sitting up.
For each 5' , the first 3' I use to settle into the position. I then take the average HR for the last 2'. It is quite stable.

With my 172.5mm cranks, like clockwork, 3BPM more in aero and 3BPM raise every 10watts
With 165mm cranks, aero and sitting up give same HR.

3BPM increase per 10watts increase for both positions.

So the shorter cranks are saving me 2-3pbm which is 7-10watts for me
2014-04-16 1:16 PM
in reply to: marcag

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Subject: RE: Week 13 - Last Tests!
Very interesting. Has me interested in trying to collect some more controlled data on my next long trainer ride. Generally I make the effort to stay in aero as much as possible so I don't have a lot of data sitting up. At this point in the game changing the cranks really isn't an option for this year but it's always worth keeping the options open for the future.

I tried shorter cranks during one of my fittings but I really couldn't get comfortable with the added drop that created to the cockpit. We weren't really looking at power output relative to the position changes at that point in the fitting.


2014-04-16 1:41 PM
in reply to: cdkayak

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Subject: RE: Week 13 - Last Tests!

It's very difficult to quantify the power improvements with new cranks. The computrainer helps a lot because it forces you to a given power. I am fortunate that my HR really tracks linearly with power.

I tried multiple protocols and didn't see the difference. But I think this one is showing a definite trend

The first hint of a closed hip angle, is a big drop in HR when you sit up in the last few minutes of a tough interval. I would always see my HR drop 3BPM. It sometime takes a few minutes to stabilize.

Yes, I do get an additional 7.5mm of drop, but if I want I could raise my front end and open my hip angle even more.

I will be testing that when I get outdoors to see if it has an aero penalty. I do have a pretty big drop right now (for me) at 15cm



2014-04-16 2:14 PM
in reply to: reecealan

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ---- Permanently OPEN!!
Thanks Reece! I just found out yesterday that I was granted an early upgrade to Cat 4 after going 1st, 3rd, 3rd, 1st, 1st this year in Crits. Usually it is 10 races. Should be interesting to see how I go in the 4s now. Pretty happy because I had projected much longer to upgrade.

That race is pretty fun. There is a hill on every lap and with a few to go the hill starts taking the toll. The stronger guys basically attack up the hill and around the 1st turn repeatedly. After about 10 times people start fading. At the end on the last two laps the pace really picks up. I had to close two moves heading into the hill before launching the sprint. I jumped once hard to latch on to a wheel and then again to get the other leadout going by before a couple seconds of rest and then launch into the 20 second sprint.

I have noticed my bike handling has become much stronger and confident. I've been bumped going 30 mph and sandwich between guys and just in general riding hard and fast in very close proximity. You start learning how to really be in tune with keeping upright. Even descending with my friend the other day I was gapping him quite a bit just going around corners down hills. My recovery ability has gone way up after hard efforts. I seem to go deep into the red and then bounce back quickly. I can't say my FTP has gone up all the much but really not sure to be honest because the riding is so different. As far as it being April, I feel really good, like I am 3 months ahead of schedule if that makes since. I was basically this strong in July last year...so hoping to build from here. I feel like a more dynamic rider if that makes sense.

I've been away from this group because my powertap wheel is finito. Just came to check up on everyone. I'm a little saddened to be honest, but I also have had a feeling of being more in touch with myself on my rides the last couple weeks. I have my eye on a stages setup down the road but for now am going to ride by feel and enjoying the bike. I just sold my Time Trial bike and not gong to lie, I was on the verge of tears but I needed to updgrade a road bike and it was the only way for now.

I have my eye on some hillier road races this summer and have lost a few pounds the past couple weeks. I want to see if I can drop another 10lbs by end of May. I've seem to all the sudden be getting my mojo back that I really haven't had since 2011 and am taking thing more seriously. I feel excited about this summer after the long winter. My knee feels good, my back feels good, things are looking up and want to keep the positive momentum going.

Hope all you guys are having a good spring and get a chance to feel how great that increase power is when your outside.
2014-04-16 2:46 PM
in reply to: marcag

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Subject: RE: Week 13 - Last Tests!
I'm not going to be changing anything anytime soon but it would be interesting to see if there is a similar relationship with HR between aero & sitting. Like I said I don't have consistent data to compare the two yet. When we did play around with the shorter cranks my fitter was doing to see if I could get a more aggressive position not more power.
2014-04-16 2:49 PM
in reply to: JAYCT

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ---- Permanently OPEN!!
Congratulations on the upgrade to Cat 4! Glad the season is coming together and you're feeling that good on the bike.

Training has been going well but still mostly on the trainer. Spring hasn't started in Maine yet, it snowed this morning. Soon! (I hope!)
2014-04-16 7:49 PM
in reply to: cdkayak


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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ---- Permanently OPEN!!
Thanks everyone for the kind words of encouragement/congrats on the gains I made with the 20 min test. Seems like everyone in our group is making significant gains. If not in FTP, then the other parts of their training and racing. Besides putting in the work, I believe some of my gains came from learning how to suffer and learning how to pace the suffering.

This morning I put that suffer to the test and did 5 minutes in the darkest place I've been yet. I mustered 329 Watts which is an 18 watt increase over the prior test. Heart rate hit 178 this go round which is 4 beats more than I've done on any of the tests. Hence the darkest suffering I've done yet.

Virtual Power Results:
1-7-2014 - 5 Min Test - 271W
1-10-2014 - 20 Min Test - 234W
January CP - 222W

4-13-2014 - 20 Min Test - 273W
4-16-2013 - 5 Min Test - 329W
April CP - 254W

That's a nice little 32 Watt gain on the CP in just under 4 months. Also got the real power number captured below from the Power2Max and will use this number for my new CP and will ditch the virtual power in favor of the Power2Max for all future workouts.

Power2Max:
5 Min Test - 298
20 Min Test - 242
New CP: 223 Watts

Have a good night everyone.
Ron



Attachments
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Ron-2014-04-16-bt-power-week13-test-5-905234.tcx (1288KB - 0 downloads)


2014-04-16 8:41 PM
in reply to: WaterRat

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ---- Permanently OPEN!!

Originally posted by WaterRat This morning I put that suffer to the test and did 5 minutes in the darkest place I've been yet. I mustered 329 Watts which is an 18 watt increase over the prior test. Heart rate hit 178 this go round which is 4 beats more than I've done on any of the tests. Hence the darkest suffering I've done yet.

This is why I love power and also group rides.  It teaches you new limits on what you can actually handle.  Most people who don't use power, or never ride with people stronger than them...never really know what "all out" truly means.  The great thing is once you really know what it feels like to ride the edge of blowing up...then you can start applying it more often into your training without being so obsessed with looking at your computer.

2014-04-16 9:57 PM
in reply to: Jason N


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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ---- Permanently OPEN!!
Originally posted by Jason N

Originally posted by WaterRat This morning I put that suffer to the test and did 5 minutes in the darkest place I've been yet. I mustered 329 Watts which is an 18 watt increase over the prior test. Heart rate hit 178 this go round which is 4 beats more than I've done on any of the tests. Hence the darkest suffering I've done yet.

This is why I love power and also group rides.  It teaches you new limits on what you can actually handle.  Most people who don't use power, or never ride with people stronger than them...never really know what "all out" truly means.  The great thing is once you really know what it feels like to ride the edge of blowing up...then you can start applying it more often into your training without being so obsessed with looking at your computer.




I ran a HM this past weekend, and I felt the fatigue creeping up on me as I hit mile 10. Having roughly 20 minutes left in the race, I actually compared my upcoming suffering to a 20 minute test and knew that I had it. I couldn't manage to speed up, but I didn't really slow down either
2014-04-16 10:19 PM
in reply to: ImSore

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Subject: RE: improvements on the bike

I love reading how everyone has improved.  While I have not re-tested yet I too can vouch for my improvement.

I had a fabulous 12 hour Adventure Race this past Saturday.  My partners and I won our division in the regional race which means we get a $400 scholarship to pay for USARA nationals in the fall and winners jackets.  Super excited about that.  My team was made up of me and 2 guys.  Here is the kicker, they drafted off me for 90% of the bike legs.  I was amazed at how strong my biking was.  This was the first year I did any type of cycling training over the winter and it has obviously paid off.  It is one of my stronger disciplines to begin with.  I'm just tickled over it all.  90° heat and 25 mph sustained headwinds with gusts to 45 was rather crazy. We ran out of water twice during the course.  Racing without fluids just stinks.  When we came upon a house and could refill our packs, we just laid in the shade and sucked down the fluids for 10 solid minutes before carrying on with the race.  The very next day we get snow.  Crazy weather.

2014-04-17 12:37 PM
in reply to: WaterRat

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ---- Permanently OPEN!!

Originally posted by WaterRat Virtual Power Results: 1-7-2014 - 5 Min Test - 271W 1-10-2014 - 20 Min Test - 234W January CP - 222W 4-13-2014 - 20 Min Test - 273W 4-16-2013 - 5 Min Test - 329W April CP - 254W That's a nice little 32 Watt gain on the CP in just under 4 months.

I just wanted to point this out to you (or anyone else who might not have noticed) -- your most recent 20 MINUTE test was at a higher power than your original 5 MINUTE test!  That's absolutely amazing and awesome!  Huge HUGE congrats on your improvements!

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