General Discussion Triathlon Talk » "Anchor your catch"-explain to those slow and struggling swimmers. Rss Feed  
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2014-03-05 1:24 PM
in reply to: axteraa

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Subject: RE: "Anchor your catch"-explain to those slow and struggling swimmers.

Originally posted by axteraa

Originally posted by mike761
Originally posted by tjfry

Originally posted by mcmanusclan5

Originally posted by mike761
Originally posted by miamiamy You have some good descriptions here. The two that help me were "pulling yourself over a barrel" but you still have to imagine that. To feel it go to the deep end of the pool. Put both hands outside the pool on the edge. Go completely under water (arms over your head) and then pull yourself all the way out. (You'll stop with your body halfway out at you hips) That movement is similar to the swim pull. Your hand stays put and your body moves past your hand. Obviously here you use both arms and when swimming freestyle it's one at a time.
Freestyle is not a stroke it is an event. In a freestyle event you are allowed to use any stroke you want, most people use front crawl because it is the fastest of the 4 main swim strokes. To the OP: keep your elbows high, your finger tips should enter the water first. Your hand extends slightly more once in the water, then you pull back. Remember physics- every action has an equal and opposite reaction. Keep your fingers together and your palm perpendicular to the direction you are going. By pulling the water back you are propelling yourself forward.

I always thought that you wanted to very slightly splay your fingers, as that created a larger effective surface and so a better "anchor," in the context of the OP.

No?

Also, to all as a follow up on the OP, how far forward of your head do you have your hand enter the water?  Another way to ask is how much do you extend once in (is the arm mostly straight when the hand enters and the little further stretch referenced above is more from the shoulder, or do you have a bent arm on the way in and then straighten)?

It seems that you'd want it going into the water almost as far forward as you can, as moving through air has less resistance than water, but not so much that you would mess up your form.

As ever from this learning swimmer - thanks for any replies!

Matt

You're correct. Slightly spread fingers do offer more surface area and a better pulling surface. Hand should enter the water like a shallow dive, then the arm straightens and extends once underwater. The steeper the angle of entry (i.e. the further out you insert your hand) the more bubbles will come along for the ride. If you enter and extend you are able to shake the air pocket off your hand, and therefore pull water and not air.

 

TJ

Define slightly?? I say together without squeezing them together, which when swimming would give a gap in the fingers enough to see through. When telling people to spread their fingers they tend to spread them way to much. I'd rather have someone with their fingers together than spread open. I think most people when they swim enough laps stop thinking about it and it becomes a slight spread.

According to this CFD analysis, 12 degrees.

http://www.posetech.com/FORUM/finger_spacing.pdf

 

DANG!!  I've been closer to 13 degrees all this time...  A new weapon in my quest to crush the swim - lookout 2014 race calendar!

(actually, kinda cool - at least to this geek.  Thanks for the primary source lit.)

Matt



2014-03-05 1:37 PM
in reply to: mcmanusclan5

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Subject: RE: "Anchor your catch"-explain to those slow and struggling swimmers.
Originally posted by mcmanusclan5

Originally posted by axteraa

Originally posted by mike761
Originally posted by tjfry

Originally posted by mcmanusclan5

Originally posted by mike761
Originally posted by miamiamy You have some good descriptions here. The two that help me were "pulling yourself over a barrel" but you still have to imagine that. To feel it go to the deep end of the pool. Put both hands outside the pool on the edge. Go completely under water (arms over your head) and then pull yourself all the way out. (You'll stop with your body halfway out at you hips) That movement is similar to the swim pull. Your hand stays put and your body moves past your hand. Obviously here you use both arms and when swimming freestyle it's one at a time.
Freestyle is not a stroke it is an event. In a freestyle event you are allowed to use any stroke you want, most people use front crawl because it is the fastest of the 4 main swim strokes. To the OP: keep your elbows high, your finger tips should enter the water first. Your hand extends slightly more once in the water, then you pull back. Remember physics- every action has an equal and opposite reaction. Keep your fingers together and your palm perpendicular to the direction you are going. By pulling the water back you are propelling yourself forward.

I always thought that you wanted to very slightly splay your fingers, as that created a larger effective surface and so a better "anchor," in the context of the OP.

No?

Also, to all as a follow up on the OP, how far forward of your head do you have your hand enter the water?  Another way to ask is how much do you extend once in (is the arm mostly straight when the hand enters and the little further stretch referenced above is more from the shoulder, or do you have a bent arm on the way in and then straighten)?

It seems that you'd want it going into the water almost as far forward as you can, as moving through air has less resistance than water, but not so much that you would mess up your form.

As ever from this learning swimmer - thanks for any replies!

Matt

You're correct. Slightly spread fingers do offer more surface area and a better pulling surface. Hand should enter the water like a shallow dive, then the arm straightens and extends once underwater. The steeper the angle of entry (i.e. the further out you insert your hand) the more bubbles will come along for the ride. If you enter and extend you are able to shake the air pocket off your hand, and therefore pull water and not air.

 

TJ

Define slightly?? I say together without squeezing them together, which when swimming would give a gap in the fingers enough to see through. When telling people to spread their fingers they tend to spread them way to much. I'd rather have someone with their fingers together than spread open. I think most people when they swim enough laps stop thinking about it and it becomes a slight spread.

According to this CFD analysis, 12 degrees.

http://www.posetech.com/FORUM/finger_spacing.pdf

 

DANG!!  I've been closer to 13 degrees all this time...  A new weapon in my quest to crush the swim - lookout 2014 race calendar!

(actually, kinda cool - at least to this geek.  Thanks for the primary source lit.)

Matt

FTW! Oh, ow, I'm dying laughing here...
2014-03-06 4:07 AM
in reply to: ratherbeswimming

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Subject: RE: "Anchor your catch"-explain to those slow and struggling swimmers.

Originally posted by ratherbeswimming

Originally posted by miamiamy You have some good descriptions here. The two that help me were "pulling yourself over a barrel" but you still have to imagine that.  

Or - Climbing an underwater ladder. Picture a ladder placed horizontally under you. Place a hand on each rung and push your way across/up it.

The ladder analogy works--only I ask people to put the rung in the crook of their elbow and pull themselves over with the forearm.

Here's a pool illustration I use--reach forward (like most of the folks in the pic, better with one arm), hang your arm over the pool edge (like the arrow guy on the right), point your fingers toward the bottom (like the arrow guy on the left), and press like you're trying to pull yourself into the pool. That's a good pull position and gives you the feel of where the water pressure should be.

As yazmaster (I think?) said, it takes a lot of shoulder strength and flexibility to do this. That's something that may need to be addressed along with (and to consistently do) a good catch and pull technique.





(PressPoolEdgeFeel.jpg)



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2014-03-06 5:15 AM
in reply to: IndoIronYanti

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Subject: RE: "Anchor your catch"-explain to those slow and struggling swimmers.
cool picture Yanti.

From my personal experience, I found one flexibility measure this way - standing or sitting, hold your hand at chin level, palm down and parallel to the ground, arm bent at the elbow at about 120 degrees (more than 90, not straight out). The bottom of your elbow is likely below your hand, right? Now, holding your hand in the same place, raise *just* your elbow until the bottom of your elbow is parallel and straight with the bottom of your hand. To achieve this position, you either shrug your shoulder up towards your ear (not flexible) or simply stretched into this position without shrugging your shoulder (flexible). Your ability to do the latter is key.

Another measure is your ability to reach your arm forward without snaking your body along with it. Being in a strong, clenched streamline position with your arms against your ears (actually more like your shoulders against your ears) takes the cake on that.

I can clearly recall not being able to do either or those things without feeling strain. With lots of practice, it isn't so much of an issue any more. But to a beginner, both positions are uncomfortable at first - don't let that stop you! Going from bad to mediocre to decent isn't a matter of just tweaking a few things, it takes a lot of time swimming, acclimating to the water and developing muscles in ways they aren't otherwise used. The time won't disappear in huge chunks, it will go away in barely noticeable ones. It can be frustrating, but stick to it!

I'd be remiss if I didn't also say
1) get an underwater video camera. You think you're doing one thing, but you're doing another. Invaluable tool.
2) Don't forget to develop a strong kick!!!! (ha! gonna keep saying this no matter what!)
2014-03-06 10:25 AM
in reply to: k9car363

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Subject: RE: "Anchor your catch"-explain to those slow and struggling swimmers.
Great information. Thanks


Originally posted by k9car363

Originally posted by Billyk "Anchor your catch" means what? Extend your reach underwater, start bending your elbow/arm and then STOP/PAUSE so your body can move over it? What exactly does this mean and how is it done? I don't get it as the word anchor literally means STOP.

Based on past experience, I will probably live to regret this,  That said, I wrote an article and published it in the 'swim technique' section of my website a couple months ago in which I talk about the catch and pull.  It is detailed, and has photographs to help visualize some of the concepts.  The technique I describe in this article carried me to a world record as a member of an 800 meter freestyle relay (all four of us were utilizing this technique).

For anyone interested - http://goscottgo.info/index.php/swimming-technique/38-the-catch-and-pull

Hope it helps.


2014-03-06 11:01 AM
in reply to: bmeere

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Subject: RE: "Anchor your catch"-explain to those slow and struggling swimmers.

Scott - that was a great read!  Many thanks for sharing that!!  I focused on the things in the article and it made a noticeable difference today in the pool.

I think I'd been both entering/reaching too shallow ("high elbow" was so stuck in my head that I think I was willing my whole arm up too high) and collapsing my wrist some, rather than tilting down (it was in my head that the wrist should NOT break in any direction and should be perfectly straight with the forearm - as a result, I think mine was breaking UP a bit).

Also worked a bit on the angle of my hand, but it wasn't that far off - still, the description was helpful.  Went from a very consistent 10spl the last 3 months to 9 today, swimming a couple seconds/100 faster at the same effort...

Yanti - that is a GREAT picture.  I can't wait to try that, as I've been trying to figure out how soon/late I should get my forearm vertical, and I think the feel from that drill will help set the expectation for feel (and raise an eyebrow on the pool deck!).

As for kicking - and I can't believe I'm gonna say this after perfecting my "zero beat kick" last season - I agree and have been doing kick drills.  And dang if it doesn't help!

THIS is why I love BT!!

Matt



2014-03-06 5:14 PM
in reply to: switch

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Subject: RE: "Anchor your catch"-explain to those slow and struggling swimmers.

Originally posted by switch

Wow!  That is awesome!  Thank you so much for posting that

You welcome, thank you for the kind words.

2014-03-06 5:17 PM
in reply to: bmeere

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Subject: RE: "Anchor your catch"-explain to those slow and struggling swimmers.

Originally posted by bmeere Great information. Thanks
Originally posted by k9car363

 

Your welcome, hope it helps.

2014-03-06 5:24 PM
in reply to: mcmanusclan5

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Subject: RE: "Anchor your catch"-explain to those slow and struggling swimmers.

Originally posted by mcmanusclan5

Scott - that was a great read!  Many thanks for sharing that!!  I focused on the things in the article and it made a noticeable difference today in the pool.

I think I'd been both entering/reaching too shallow ("high elbow" was so stuck in my head that I think I was willing my whole arm up too high) and collapsing my wrist some, rather than tilting down (it was in my head that the wrist should NOT break in any direction and should be perfectly straight with the forearm - as a result, I think mine was breaking UP a bit).

Also worked a bit on the angle of my hand, but it wasn't that far off - still, the description was helpful.  Went from a very consistent 10spl the last 3 months to 9 today, swimming a couple seconds/100 faster at the same effort...

THIS is why I love BT!!

Matt

That is what I love to hear and the reason I wrote the article.  First time in the water after reading the article and you experienced a noticeable improvement.  Here is the best part - as you perfect the technique as described in that article, you can anticipate even more improvement.

Thank you!  You made my day.

2014-03-07 10:15 AM
in reply to: k9car363

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Subject: RE: "Anchor your catch"-explain to those slow and struggling swimmers.

Scott, I have reread your article again, and I have been thinking about it a lot.  It is really great.  If you haven't mastered the catch and pull and you haven't checked out Scott's link yet, I encourage you to do so.  It's really great! 

I looked at your blog for info on set design, but didn't see any.  Perhaps I missed it, but I was wondering if you might be willing to give your opinion on good set design and swim plan structure for triathletes.  Do you recommend a sub-threshold/CSS approach, a more traditional mostly short/hard/fast approach, a hybrid? 

Thanks :)

2014-03-07 1:25 PM
in reply to: switch

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Subject: RE: "Anchor your catch"-explain to those slow and struggling swimmers.

Originally posted by switch

Scott, I have reread your article again, and I have been thinking about it a lot.  It is really great.  If you haven't mastered the catch and pull and you haven't checked out Scott's link yet, I encourage you to do so.  It's really great! 

I looked at your blog for info on set design, but didn't see any.  Perhaps I missed it, but I was wondering if you might be willing to give your opinion on good set design and swim plan structure for triathletes.  Do you recommend a sub-threshold/CSS approach, a more traditional mostly short/hard/fast approach, a hybrid? 

Thanks

Hi Elesa,

I am working on a couple articles about endurance, energy pathways, training for endurance as it relates to the various triathlon swim distances, as well as an article about training stress and adaptation.  After reading the articles, my hope is that anyone would be able to understand how best to design a training plan and answer the questions you just posed.   Let me say, I am NOT trying to replace coaches.  I am the first, and perhaps loudest advocate of having a coach on deck, or at least, a coach you can actually talk to.  It is VERY difficult to be completely objective when designing and planning your own workouts so, in my opinion, if an athletes goal is anything more than 'just finish' a coach is almost a requirement.  However, I am also an advocate of understanding why you are doing something in training.  Too often, there are terms thrown around that work there way into an athlete's lexicon that the athlete has little or no understanding of what the term means.  My goal is to provide at least a basic understanding so when an athlete gets into the water they will appreciate proper technique and they will comprehend why they are doing what they are doing.

Anyway, when I get them done, or AS I get them done, I will shoot you a PM and let you know they are posted.  Probably going to be a couple weeks yet.



2014-03-07 1:50 PM
in reply to: k9car363

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Subject: RE: "Anchor your catch"-explain to those slow and struggling swimmers.

Originally posted by k9car363

Originally posted by switch

Scott, I have reread your article again, and I have been thinking about it a lot.  It is really great.  If you haven't mastered the catch and pull and you haven't checked out Scott's link yet, I encourage you to do so.  It's really great! 

I looked at your blog for info on set design, but didn't see any.  Perhaps I missed it, but I was wondering if you might be willing to give your opinion on good set design and swim plan structure for triathletes.  Do you recommend a sub-threshold/CSS approach, a more traditional mostly short/hard/fast approach, a hybrid? 

Thanks :)

Hi Elesa,

I am working on a couple articles about endurance, energy pathways, training for endurance as it relates to the various triathlon swim distances, as well as an article about training stress and adaptation.  After reading the articles, my hope is that anyone would be able to understand how best to design a training plan and answer the questions you just posed.   Let me say, I am NOT trying to replace coaches.  I am the first, and perhaps loudest advocate of having a coach on deck, or at least, a coach you can actually talk to.  It is VERY difficult to be completely objective when designing and planning your own workouts so, in my opinion, if an athletes goal is anything more than 'just finish' a coach is almost a requirement.  However, I am also an advocate of understanding why you are doing something in training.  Too often, there are terms thrown around that work there way into an athlete's lexicon that the athlete has little or no understanding of what the term means.  My goal is to provide at least a basic understanding so when an athlete gets into the water they will appreciate proper technique and they will comprehend why they are doing what they are doing.

Anyway, when I get them done, or AS I get them done, I will shoot you a PM and let you know they are posted.  Probably going to be a couple weeks yet.

That sounds great, Scott.  I look forward to reading them :)

2014-03-08 12:34 AM
in reply to: k9car363

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Subject: RE: "Anchor your catch"-explain to those slow and struggling swimmers.

Originally posted by k9car363

Originally posted by Billyk "Anchor your catch" means what? Extend your reach underwater, start bending your elbow/arm and then STOP/PAUSE so your body can move over it? What exactly does this mean and how is it done? I don't get it as the word anchor literally means STOP.

Based on past experience, I will probably live to regret this,  That said, I wrote an article and published it in the 'swim technique' section of my website a couple months ago in which I talk about the catch and pull.  It is detailed, and has photographs to help visualize some of the concepts.  The technique I describe in this article carried me to a world record as a member of an 800 meter freestyle relay (all four of us were utilizing this technique).

For anyone interested - http://goscottgo.info/index.php/swimming-technique/38-the-catch-and-pull

Hope it helps.

I swim like a rock, but I think your article can even help ME!

Thanks, for taking the time to share (and subjecting yourself to the BT 'slings and arrows").

2014-03-08 7:07 AM
in reply to: k9car363

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Subject: RE: "Anchor your catch"-explain to those slow and struggling swimmers.

Originally posted by k9car363

Originally posted by Billyk "Anchor your catch" means what? Extend your reach underwater, start bending your elbow/arm and then STOP/PAUSE so your body can move over it? What exactly does this mean and how is it done? I don't get it as the word anchor literally means STOP.

Based on past experience, I will probably live to regret this,  That said, I wrote an article and published it in the 'swim technique' section of my website a couple months ago in which I talk about the catch and pull.  It is detailed, and has photographs to help visualize some of the concepts.  The technique I describe in this article carried me to a world record as a member of an 800 meter freestyle relay (all four of us were utilizing this technique).

For anyone interested - http://goscottgo.info/index.php/swimming-technique/38-the-catch-and-pull

Hope it helps.

Nice descriptions, Scott!  I enjoyed reading it.

 

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