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2014-04-09 8:05 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Kona elitism.
Originally posted by Left Brain
No....I can teach you how to hit a baseball.  Someone else can teach you how to dribble a basketball, or ski, or play volleyball.  I can't teach you to run a 4 minute mile if you haven't built that speed and endurance from a young age. (and have some really good genetics)

We are talkig about FAST triathletes.....not the guy who wins your local triathlon.




This is a bit misleading. You can teach someone to hit a baseball, but you aren't going to teach a 20-25 year old to hit major league pitching if they haven't been playing baseball since they were small. I used to race motocross, the same applies there too. If you don't start seriously racing by age 12(at least), they usually start at 4-6, you aren't going to make it on a world class level, much less be a champion. Speed and and skill start the same.


2014-04-09 9:15 PM
in reply to: LukeBoswell

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Subject: RE: Kona elitism.

Originally posted by LukeBoswell
Originally posted by Left Brain No....I can teach you how to hit a baseball.  Someone else can teach you how to dribble a basketball, or ski, or play volleyball.  I can't teach you to run a 4 minute mile if you haven't built that speed and endurance from a young age. (and have some really good genetics)

We are talkig about FAST triathletes.....not the guy who wins your local triathlon.

This is a bit misleading. You can teach someone to hit a baseball, but you aren't going to teach a 20-25 year old to hit major league pitching if they haven't been playing baseball since they were small. I used to race motocross, the same applies there too. If you don't start seriously racing by age 12(at least), they usually start at 4-6, you aren't going to make it on a world class level, much less be a champion. Speed and and skill start the same.

I don't know....I went to High school with a kid who couldn't dribble a basketball in he 9th grade.  He was recruited to play basketball because he was 6'10".  He ended up playing in the NBA for 9 years.  Yeah, I know it's anecdotal, and your point is well taken.  But I have been around sports and athletes my whole life...the only thing I know of that really is a product of "he can just do it" is running.  I think more than any other sport it has a MAJOR genetic component.  There are kids who can run 5:00 - 5:15  miles at 13 years old with basically NO training and NO background....and they aren't crazy rare...most middle schools have a kid who could do it in the recent history of the school.  Some get slower when their body changes in a way that is not beneficial for running fast, but some of them become really fast runners.....and the ability to get there is not taught like with other sports.

2014-04-10 5:38 PM
in reply to: AdventureBear

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Subject: RE: Kona elitism.

Originally posted by AdventureBear
Originally posted by bcagle25 I didn't reinforce anything. I gave you athletes that could win Kona but elect not to, because the real depth and talent is in the ITU circuit (just about everyone knows this). You asked for names I gave you names, you said none could win Kona and I gave examples of many athletes that can and most likely will change the podium of Kona. This isn't to prove its a world championship, more that it is to prove that the best athletes DO NOT race Kona. " I just can't imagine a triathlete that is at the very end of the pointy end of the curve that has a legitimate chance to win at Kona would't make an effort to get there and prove it." Yup lots of athletes in ITU that are not proving it because they want to, sorry but Kona is not a world class field, it has world class competitors but is definitely missing the cream of the crop. Ironman is the world championships because it gave itself that title. No governing body exists for it, it has a weak qualifying structure (ask most pros), and has competitors that it doesn't allow for qualification (Challenge, Rev 3, etc).
I think that's a good point, but competition in the ITU circuit & Competition at IM distance are 2 different specializations...I don't think you can draw general conclusions based on speculation. Will those pros in the list you gave go on to be future champions at the IM distance? Probably. But there are also pros that choose to specialize in the IM distance from the start. Could it be because they are not "fast enough" for the ITU circuit or because they are for whatever reason drawn to the longer distance? I don't think it matters. Who are we to judge motivations?.

 

I agree. some of what I'm reading is some really crazy logic. It would be the same logic to say that Usain Bolt would own the marathon if he decides to enter. Totally different beasts. Yes some ITU guys have done well in Kona, and plenty that never bothered with ITU have done well in Kona. ITU is not a prerequisite. And to be honest while some splits at ITU have gotten faster, the overall times haven't changed in 20 years. So that tells me it's the tactics that have changed, not the ability.  It's a circular argument I know. Guys who like prize money go ITU, guys who like sponsorship money and exposure go Ironman, But they are a totally different skill set. I'm pretty sure I'm the only person on this thread who has raced an ITU world cup event and Kona as a pro(granted forever ago), and I will tell you that I learned very quickly that the more impressive athletes were in Kona. And that's not to be some mean dig on the ITU crew, but that style of racing is a lot of sitting around mixed with some crazy intense moments. I had a 5 minute conversation about my flight arrangements during the bike leg once. You're gonna be able to run a little faster if that's how the ride plays out. Again, not a dig, just the style of racing. While Ironman might not show 5 min miles on the run, you grind it out from minute 1, which requires a lot more out of you.

And the whole "Kona isn't a real world champs" is just bizarre. The Masters, The Boston Marathon, Tour de France also don't get official designation, but everyone knows this is the gem of the sport. You don't need a certificate to know it's the pinnacle.

2014-04-10 8:49 PM
in reply to: tjfry

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Subject: RE: Kona elitism.

There goes TJ with his elitist Kona attitude. 

2014-04-10 9:18 PM
in reply to: GMAN 19030

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Subject: RE: Kona elitism.

Originally posted by GMAN 19030

There goes TJ with his elitist Kona attitude. 

It was bound to happen.  LOL

2014-04-10 11:15 PM
in reply to: tjfry

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Subject: RE: Kona elitism.

Originally posted by tjfry

Originally posted by AdventureBear
Originally posted by bcagle25 I didn't reinforce anything. I gave you athletes that could win Kona but elect not to, because the real depth and talent is in the ITU circuit (just about everyone knows this). You asked for names I gave you names, you said none could win Kona and I gave examples of many athletes that can and most likely will change the podium of Kona. This isn't to prove its a world championship, more that it is to prove that the best athletes DO NOT race Kona. " I just can't imagine a triathlete that is at the very end of the pointy end of the curve that has a legitimate chance to win at Kona would't make an effort to get there and prove it." Yup lots of athletes in ITU that are not proving it because they want to, sorry but Kona is not a world class field, it has world class competitors but is definitely missing the cream of the crop. Ironman is the world championships because it gave itself that title. No governing body exists for it, it has a weak qualifying structure (ask most pros), and has competitors that it doesn't allow for qualification (Challenge, Rev 3, etc).
I think that's a good point, but competition in the ITU circuit & Competition at IM distance are 2 different specializations...I don't think you can draw general conclusions based on speculation. Will those pros in the list you gave go on to be future champions at the IM distance? Probably. But there are also pros that choose to specialize in the IM distance from the start. Could it be because they are not "fast enough" for the ITU circuit or because they are for whatever reason drawn to the longer distance? I don't think it matters. Who are we to judge motivations?.

 

I agree. some of what I'm reading is some really crazy logic. It would be the same logic to say that Usain Bolt would own the marathon if he decides to enter. Totally different beasts. Yes some ITU guys have done well in Kona, and plenty that never bothered with ITU have done well in Kona. ITU is not a prerequisite. And to be honest while some splits at ITU have gotten faster, the overall times haven't changed in 20 years. So that tells me it's the tactics that have changed, not the ability.  It's a circular argument I know. Guys who like prize money go ITU, guys who like sponsorship money and exposure go Ironman, But they are a totally different skill set. I'm pretty sure I'm the only person on this thread who has raced an ITU world cup event and Kona as a pro(granted forever ago), and I will tell you that I learned very quickly that the more impressive athletes were in Kona. And that's not to be some mean dig on the ITU crew, but that style of racing is a lot of sitting around mixed with some crazy intense moments. I had a 5 minute conversation about my flight arrangements during the bike leg once. You're gonna be able to run a little faster if that's how the ride plays out. Again, not a dig, just the style of racing. While Ironman might not show 5 min miles on the run, you grind it out from minute 1, which requires a lot more out of you.

And the whole "Kona isn't a real world champs" is just bizarre. The Masters, The Boston Marathon, Tour de France also don't get official designation, but everyone knows this is the gem of the sport. You don't need a certificate to know it's the pinnacle.

Only because you are an american who knows little about cycling



2014-04-11 12:39 PM
in reply to: GMAN 19030

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Subject: RE: Kona elitism.

Originally posted by GMAN 19030

There goes TJ with his elitist Kona attitude. 

 

Who gave you permission to respond to me? as if....

2014-04-11 12:55 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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