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2014-04-17 6:11 PM

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Subject: Kona institutes wave starts

What, no thread on this yet???  

Men and women to start in different waves.

Discuss.



2014-04-17 6:43 PM
in reply to: ChrisM

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Subject: RE: Kona institutes wave starts
To my mind, its not so much wave starts, as it is they will now have a Pro Men's race, a pro women's race, an age-group men's race, and an age-group women's race. There was a lot of consternation on ST about this, but I don't see it as a negative. I know WTC is expanding the number of races worldwide, which means more qualifiers. As stated in the interview, with so many coming out between 60-70 minutes, there just isn't place on the road to put them all. This still means that the pro m, pro w, AG M and AG W are all still racing each other at the same time. Not a big deal if you ask me.
2014-04-17 6:56 PM
in reply to: kmac1346

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Subject: RE: Kona institutes wave starts

If women go last, fast women swimmers will have quite a lot of men to swim through.

One issue for  women AGers on the bike, men often won't let women pass them easily. They will surge when women tries to pass, and women need to increase power out to make pass within the rules. I have both experienced this many times in IM races and have heard head referees talk about this issue at athlete briefings at both IM and 70.3 distance races.

Not sure how much this will spread out of athletes. I do think it is a good move just like starting men and women pros separately.

2014-04-17 7:11 PM
in reply to: KathyG

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Subject: RE: Kona institutes wave starts
Probably never going to do Kona, but I agree it would place the faster woman AG swimmers at a disadvantage. It would be harder to find someone of the right pace to draft, and make them spend lots of time maneuvering around the slower men. Experienced that in a race last year--could swear I spent an extra 200m in a 1500m swim trying to get around BOP guysfrom the previous wave doing breaststroke. I prefer to start with guys, because there's a really good chance someone's the right pace, and it's easier to draft someone who's substantially bigger than oneself. For some reason, there also seems to be much more aggressive contact in an all-woman start than a mixed gender start. This may just be a feature of the SE Asian race scene though--haven't noticed it in the few US events I've done.

However, given the numbers at Kona, it's probably a good call for safety reasons at this point, just to spread people out a bit. It just seems a bit unfair if women always start second. I realize the average guy is faster, esp. on the bike, but I'm not sure there's much difference with AG athletes on the swim.
2014-04-17 7:17 PM
in reply to: ChrisM

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Subject: RE: Kona institutes wave starts
Originally posted by ChrisM

What, no thread on this yet???  

Men and women to start in different waves.

Discuss.




Wow, considering that there will be female age groupers doing the swim @ 1:10:00 and faster, and male age groupers doing it in @2:00:00+ (yes women will be too) this kind of sucks if you are a fast age group female swimmer.

It would not be hard to verify swim times based on the qualifying race (except for lotter which could go last) and do 2 waves of swim starts still but based on expected swim finish to keep the swim cleaner. I'd hate to have to pass hundreds of men in a wave start when I might have easily been in front of most of them in a mass start.
2014-04-17 7:42 PM
in reply to: AdventureBear

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Subject: RE: Kona institutes wave starts

Yeah, we have a large 800+ person swim here, used to be a mass start.  Then they changed to men and women.  Fast women got screwed in that one.  Then they added a wetsuit division which they added to the women's wave, REALLY screwing the women over.  They've now made a third wave for wetsuits only.



2014-04-17 7:54 PM
in reply to: ChrisM

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Subject: RE: Kona institutes wave starts

I think it makes sense so long as the AG men have about a 15 minute head start.  That way the mass of AG men are out of the water before the fastest AG women.  You have to remember that at Kona, there is a HUGE pack of swimmers that will come in between 60 and 70 minutes...and swimming 1:15 (even without a wetsuit) puts you very much BOP.  I don't think the top AG female swimmers will have any trouble passing the slower AG males that swim 1:20+ because there are so few of them as compared to your typical IM.

As for top AG female bikers having trouble passing the top male swimmers.  I can see that being an issue.  I won't deny that some men will surge to avoid being passed, but at the same time it may allow the top female swimmers to get in a better pack with men that are riding their pace.

The WTC is evolving.  They are growing rapidly around the world and their crown jewel needs to accommodate those changes.  I'm not one who believes that Kona shouldn't be changed due to tradition.  It's already gone through many changes.  

It was already brought up on ST, but I think this is the first step towards wave starts, which will allow for a bigger field at Kona...maybe 2500+.  The extra 500 spots can allow for more KQ spots at each race, and per AG...which in turn may benefit women.  As someone mentioned...there are some IM races where there is only one female KQ spot for a given AG...two women may post sub 10 hour times...and only one goes to Kona.  That has to suck.

2014-04-18 12:00 AM
in reply to: ChrisM

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Subject: RE: Kona institutes wave starts
When I was in Kona this year, the main topic everyone talked about post race was the need for waves, this is coming from the athletes themselves. Everyone said the swim was absolutely brutal from start to finish, which is because it never thinned out, and the drafting was horrible, but no one had anywhere to go. But this wave start isn't about the swim as much as it is about the bike. 1100+ came into T1 within 15 minutes of each other, you cannot hep but draft the first 30-40 miles because of it, its simple math. 10 meters x 1100 athletes....

Everyone talks about how they want or think Kona is a WC race, this is a way to make it a WC race. If you want to have a WC race, you need to treat it as such. The amount of drafting is ridiculous in Kona, and most of it is unintentional, going with these waves with start to help elevate the problem. It won't end it, it may make it worse, but WTC is trying for a solution to better the race, to make the race a WC caliber race from start to finish.

As for those that are going to say Kona will lose its "Iconic" image of the mass start, sorry but the late 80's and early 90's had a mass start that will probably equal the size of the waves in Kona this year, so that "image" will be fine. Plus once the race starts, meaning after the first minute that first minute of the start is an afterthought and the race is on. For everyone that says this is a WC race, this move will only help validate that claim, a WC race needs to have WC quality.

Everyone has a knee-jerk reaction with WTC. Last year everyone complained about the new swim starts, then after CDA everyone said it was far better then the chaos in previous years, some complained, but those complaints were minimal, for the most part everyone appreciated the new start format, and if you are really dying for that has start, WTC left you some options.

If people are really going to complain, I sure as heck hope that are racing, and they wait until after to complain.
2014-04-18 5:38 AM
in reply to: bcagle25

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Subject: RE: Kona institutes wave starts
I think the wave starts are fine, but maybe the men should get a turn to go off last? Every race I do, as a female, I'm put in one of the last waves. I did IMMT last year, and I was in the very last wave (of 8 or 9 I believe). I had to swim around 100s and 100s of people. Ok, fine, but there were dudes just treading water, backstroking, floating on their backs, etc. There is always some of this at a race, but this was way, way worse. That type of stuff really slows you down. A lot of women were complaining after IMMT. It just seems a bit unfair to faster female swimmers. If there were some other way to stack the waves…..

Why not coed waves?
2014-04-18 5:50 AM
in reply to: jarvy01

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Subject: RE: Kona institutes wave starts
Originally posted by jarvy01

I think the wave starts are fine, but maybe the men should get a turn to go off last? Every race I do, as a female, I'm put in one of the last waves. I did IMMT last year, and I was in the very last wave (of 8 or 9 I believe). I had to swim around 100s and 100s of people. Ok, fine, but there were dudes just treading water, backstroking, floating on their backs, etc. There is always some of this at a race, but this was way, way worse. That type of stuff really slows you down. A lot of women were complaining after IMMT. It just seems a bit unfair to faster female swimmers. If there were some other way to stack the waves…..

Why not coed waves?


Another vote for coed waves

Here is wacky idea. Since congestion affects the swim and bike the most, and in an effort to minimize drafting, seed people by their ability to get to T2, based on their KQ event. Fastest people go first.
2014-04-18 6:49 AM
in reply to: jarvy01

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Subject: RE: Kona institutes wave starts

Originally posted by jarvy01 I think the wave starts are fine, but maybe the men should get a turn to go off last? Every race I do, as a female, I'm put in one of the last waves. I did IMMT last year, and I was in the very last wave (of 8 or 9 I believe). I had to swim around 100s and 100s of people. Ok, fine, but there were dudes just treading water, backstroking, floating on their backs, etc. There is always some of this at a race, but this was way, way worse. That type of stuff really slows you down. A lot of women were complaining after IMMT. It just seems a bit unfair to faster female swimmers. If there were some other way to stack the waves….. Why not coed waves?

The complaints would be far worse if the men went after the women as 90% would get swallowed up and swam over by the men.

Like Ben mentioned above, this is being done at Kona to thin the bike course and not the swim course.



2014-04-18 7:00 AM
in reply to: #4983281

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Subject: RE: Kona institutes wave starts
I have to agree that while for most events seeding by time would be tough this one seems pretty simple since everyone has to qualify to get there.

But in the end whatever they do works for me if I ever get there.
2014-04-18 8:06 AM
in reply to: marcag

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Subject: RE: Kona institutes wave starts

Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by jarvy01 I think the wave starts are fine, but maybe the men should get a turn to go off last? Every race I do, as a female, I'm put in one of the last waves. I did IMMT last year, and I was in the very last wave (of 8 or 9 I believe). I had to swim around 100s and 100s of people. Ok, fine, but there were dudes just treading water, backstroking, floating on their backs, etc. There is always some of this at a race, but this was way, way worse. That type of stuff really slows you down. A lot of women were complaining after IMMT. It just seems a bit unfair to faster female swimmers. If there were some other way to stack the waves….. Why not coed waves?
Another vote for coed waves Here is wacky idea. Since congestion affects the swim and bike the most, and in an effort to minimize drafting, seed people by their ability to get to T2, based on their KQ event. Fastest people go first.

 

this

2014-04-18 9:33 AM
in reply to: GMAN 19030

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Subject: RE: Kona institutes wave starts
Originally posted by GMAN 19030

Originally posted by jarvy01 I think the wave starts are fine, but maybe the men should get a turn to go off last? Every race I do, as a female, I'm put in one of the last waves. I did IMMT last year, and I was in the very last wave (of 8 or 9 I believe). I had to swim around 100s and 100s of people. Ok, fine, but there were dudes just treading water, backstroking, floating on their backs, etc. There is always some of this at a race, but this was way, way worse. That type of stuff really slows you down. A lot of women were complaining after IMMT. It just seems a bit unfair to faster female swimmers. If there were some other way to stack the waves….. Why not coed waves?

The complaints would be far worse if the men went after the women as 90% would get swallowed up and swam over by the men.

Like Ben mentioned above, this is being done at Kona to thin the bike course and not the swim course.




Completely agree with the issue of men going after the women. I was actually in a TRI many years ago when they did it that way and I was plowed over by men who were MUCH bigger than me. I won't do another one like that. It is bad enough to have the Clydesdales and Athenas go right after my leg (last female wave aka the "old ladies") as we get swallowed up by some of them as well, but to have a complete field of men behind me. No thank you.
2014-04-18 9:37 AM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: Kona institutes wave starts

I noticed no one posted the actual article - it's pretty interesting.

Andrew Messick: The big challenge that we have in Kona is not in fact the size of the pier, which is what most people think, but rather the extreme concentration of gifted athletes in that particular race. It creates problems unique to Kona. Least year we had 1,100 athletes get out of the water in a 15-minute period, between 55 minutes and 1:10. That concentration of really strong swimmers, all of whom can ride a bike, is our operational limiter.



Edited by lisac957 2014-04-18 9:38 AM
2014-04-18 10:12 AM
in reply to: marcag

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Subject: RE: Kona institutes wave starts
Originally posted by marcag

Originally posted by jarvy01

I think the wave starts are fine, but maybe the men should get a turn to go off last? Every race I do, as a female, I'm put in one of the last waves. I did IMMT last year, and I was in the very last wave (of 8 or 9 I believe). I had to swim around 100s and 100s of people. Ok, fine, but there were dudes just treading water, backstroking, floating on their backs, etc. There is always some of this at a race, but this was way, way worse. That type of stuff really slows you down. A lot of women were complaining after IMMT. It just seems a bit unfair to faster female swimmers. If there were some other way to stack the waves…..

Why not coed waves?


Another vote for coed waves

Here is wacky idea. Since congestion affects the swim and bike the most, and in an effort to minimize drafting, seed people by their ability to get to T2, based on their KQ event. Fastest people go first.



Seeding based on swim time from KQ event can be very difficult. Wetsuite vs non-wetsuit, ocean vs fresh water, choppy vs calm day, time trial start vs mass start... Every swim at every event can be very different do to conditions or even an incorrect distance.


2014-04-18 10:46 AM
in reply to: rbalazs

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Subject: RE: Kona institutes wave starts

Last year everyone complained about the new swim starts, then after CDA everyone said it was far better then the chaos in previous years

CDA is a bad comparison because it is a running / dive-in beach start with a fairly narrow entry area.  Kona is a deep water start.  I don't really have a problem with the change, but don't expect it to get the same reception as it did in CDA.

2014-04-18 10:48 AM
in reply to: jarvy01

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Subject: RE: Kona institutes wave starts

Originally posted by jarvy01 I think the wave starts are fine, but maybe the men should get a turn to go off last? Every race I do, as a female, I'm put in one of the last waves. I did IMMT last year, and I was in the very last wave (of 8 or 9 I believe). I had to swim around 100s and 100s of people. Ok, fine, but there were dudes just treading water, backstroking, floating on their backs, etc. There is always some of this at a race, but this was way, way worse. That type of stuff really slows you down. A lot of women were complaining after IMMT. It just seems a bit unfair to faster female swimmers. If there were some other way to stack the waves….. Why not coed waves?

Like Jason mentioned, this is Kona and it's fast.  For the most part there'll be very few people who are in the way..

2014-04-18 11:13 AM
in reply to: spudone

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Subject: RE: Kona institutes wave starts
Originally posted by spudone

Last year everyone complained about the new swim starts, then after CDA everyone said it was far better then the chaos in previous years

CDA is a bad comparison because it is a running / dive-in beach start with a fairly narrow entry area.  Kona is a deep water start.  I don't really have a problem with the change, but don't expect it to get the same reception as it did in CDA.




I wasn't comparing that to Kona, more as to peoples knee-jerk reactions, and then ultimately after it happens they realize it was a good change.
2014-04-18 11:17 AM
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Subject: RE: Kona institutes wave starts
Originally posted by lisac957

I noticed no one posted the actual article - it's pretty interesting.

Andrew Messick: The big challenge that we have in Kona is not in fact the size of the pier, which is what most people think, but rather the extreme concentration of gifted athletes in that particular race. It creates problems unique to Kona. Least year we had 1,100 athletes get out of the water in a 15-minute period, between 55 minutes and 1:10. That concentration of really strong swimmers, all of whom can ride a bike, is our operational limiter.




That was the point I was making in my previous post. If you go to any IM race, after the pros come through transition in T1 and T2 it is usually "slow" for traffic to pick up. Not in Kona, numbers are posted in this thread out of the swim, and the bike is just about the same. I stood at Mile 1 this year, male pros came through and the thin selection of AG athletes were running with the back of the pro female field, then all the sudden a mass go AG'ers came through, they all complete the course in one giant bubble. Usually the masses come through the finish between 12-15 hours in IM's, at Kona its the 9-11 hour, everyone is just simply much faster, its the nature of a WC race.

WTC should model the AG race just like the Pro race, this is why gender specific waves could work, yes the males will be much larger, but that is the same for the pro field. The 2 biggest questions that need to be answered: 1. How early can the male pro race start 2. How much time is needed between pro female wave, male AG wave, and female AG wave. But they are working with a small window of time so it is very difficult, they will not please everyone, but they can please many more they then did last year or in previous years.

Ultimately there are plenty of options they can take, this is one of them, who knows if it will stick or change in the future. But WTC is trying to solve a problem and that is good.



Edited by bcagle25 2014-04-18 11:24 AM
2014-04-18 11:57 AM
in reply to: bcagle25

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Subject: RE: Kona institutes wave starts

Also from the article, and note the more "direct" answer.....  Don't have an opinion on this either way because I would only ever go lottery or outlive everyone in my AG.

 

Julia Polloreno: With this week’s announcements of two new Ironman events—in Barcelona and Taiwan—it begs the question: How do you grow the international Ironman event roster, while the number of Kona slots must remain the same?

Andrew Messick: The big challenge that we have in Kona [blah blah blah re drafting]  is........... The more direct answer is: we expect the size of Kona to increase


Read more at http://triathlon.competitor.com/2014/04/news/ironman-ceo-announces-major-change-kona-start_97561#rbvuWqcDjJYQ45Az.99



2014-04-18 12:20 PM
in reply to: ChrisM

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Subject: RE: Kona institutes wave starts

Originally posted by ChrisM

Also from the article, and note the more "direct" answer.....  Don't have an opinion on this either way because I would only ever go lottery or outlive everyone in my AG.

 

Julia Polloreno: With this week’s announcements of two new Ironman events—in Barcelona and Taiwan—it begs the question: How do you grow the international Ironman event roster, while the number of Kona slots must remain the same?

Andrew Messick: The big challenge that we have in Kona [blah blah blah re drafting]  is........... The more direct answer is: we expect the size of Kona to increase


Read more at http://triathlon.competitor.com/2014/04/news/ironman-ceo-announces-major-change-kona-start_97561#rbvuWqcDjJYQ45Az.99

Exactly.  This is just paving the way for more KQ spots.  It's not a money grab so much as making sure each race has sufficient KQ spots.  The alternative of course is as the WTC grows, they could completely eliminate KQ spots from some races and force people to race specific IMs that have more KQ spots.  I don't think people will be very pleased with that idea.

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