General Discussion Triathlon Talk » HM hydration and nutrition questions Rss Feed  
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2014-04-22 9:18 AM

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Subject: HM hydration and nutrition questions
Well, Sunday will be my first ever HM, and I'm pretty excited about it!

I've noticed during my long runs (10-11 miles) that at around mile 7-8 I start to lose energy. Then again, during my long training runs, I don't take in anything at all, not even water. The gels (Hammer brand) don't seem to upset my stomach when taken just before a run, so I'm hoping it will be ok during.

I plan to try a gel on Wednesday's 5 mile training run, at the midway point to see how it sits in my stomach. Nothing new on race day!

I'm thinking of taking a gel at miles 5 and 10 for my HM. Good idea? Bad idea?


2014-04-22 9:26 AM
in reply to: DannyII


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Subject: RE: HM hydration and nutrition questions
every body is different so you have to do as you are doing, experiment. I have a friend that cannot take any gels anytime within two hours of a race or during - so in other words, gels are worthless to him. others do fine with gels if they drink enough water after taking them. others take gels without water and have no problems. I could eat a pizza and keep running.

the fact that you are running out of gas half way in makes me wonder about your nutrition leading up to the runs - also, if this is your first HM, maybe the running out of gas at the halfway mark is a fitness thing, not a fuel thing. be aware of the old adage, you can't eat your way to fitness. it being your first half, you are doing great, but also be aware that your body adjust over time and gets used to the distances - there is a reason a 35 year-old is more likely to win KONA then a 20 year-old, and it isn't just training.

good luck!
2014-04-22 9:34 AM
in reply to: DannyII

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Subject: RE: HM hydration and nutrition questions

Originally posted by DannyII Well, Sunday will be my first ever HM, and I'm pretty excited about it! I've noticed during my long runs (10-11 miles) that at around mile 7-8 I start to lose energy. Then again, during my long training runs, I don't take in anything at all, not even water. The gels (Hammer brand) don't seem to upset my stomach when taken just before a run, so I'm hoping it will be ok during. I plan to try a gel on Wednesday's 5 mile training run, at the midway point to see how it sits in my stomach. Nothing new on race day! I'm thinking of taking a gel at miles 5 and 10 for my HM. Good idea? Bad idea?

 

This is anecdotal only, but typically for a HM, I'll have a bowl of either oatmeal or cereal before I leave the house, a gel about 15 minutes before the race starts, and a gel around the 8 mile mark.  I'll drink as necessary on the course, which usually works out to the water stops at 2, 5, 8, and 10 miles.

2014-04-22 9:36 AM
in reply to: gotbitten


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Subject: RE: HM hydration and nutrition questions
Originally posted by gotbitten


the fact that you are running out of gas half way in makes me wonder about your nutrition leading up to the runs - also, if this is your first HM, maybe the running out of gas at the halfway mark is a fitness thing, not a fuel thing.

good luck!


1. Run slower.
2. Take 3 gels with you eat them 45 minutes apart.
3. Run first 8 miles easy.
4. Smoke the back 5.
5. Have fun and thank every volunteer.
2014-04-22 10:41 AM
in reply to: skibummer

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Subject: RE: HM hydration and nutrition questions
Originally posted by skibummer

Originally posted by gotbitten


the fact that you are running out of gas half way in makes me wonder about your nutrition leading up to the runs - also, if this is your first HM, maybe the running out of gas at the halfway mark is a fitness thing, not a fuel thing.

good luck!


1. Run slower.
2. Take 3 gels with you eat them 45 minutes apart.
3. Run first 8 miles easy.
4. Smoke the back 5.
5. Have fun and thank every volunteer.


This should be a sticky somewhere. Great advice.
2014-04-22 10:53 AM
in reply to: DannyII

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Subject: RE: HM hydration and nutrition questions
Depends on your estimated time. Since this is your first, I imagine your finish time is probably something north of 2:15. If your first nutrition is 5 miles or about an hour in, you're probably already behind the nutritional curve. Taking a gel at mile 10 is, to me, almost pointless as well - by the time that sugar hits your bloodstream, you'll have finished the race.

Depending on the aid station layout, you'll probably be good just grabbing sports drink at each one - if they are every mile, drink a cup and a half (~6oz) every 2 or 3 stations. Eat something before the race and early on.

Two other thoughts about nutrition: everyone has horror stories about it (for me, the Chicago Marathon and Chicago Triathlon are exemplars of "nothing new on race day"). My coach is also of the strong persuasion that most nutrition horror stories aren't about product, but are about usage - let's face it, the fundamentals of each product are all probably 95% the same - sugar. So why Product A kills the gut whereas Product B doesn't - largely going to be anecdotal. Also, one bad nutrition experience, be it from a product that disagrees with your GI or from a product that is used improperly - is going to make one pay a heck of a lot more attention to nutrition from there on out.


2014-04-22 11:02 AM
in reply to: wannabefaster

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Subject: RE: HM hydration and nutrition questions

Just adding my standard HM plan for an additional anecdotal voice. My nutrition of choice if Cliff for solids/gels and Fluid for liquids

  1. Cliff bar for breakfast, minimum 1 hour before race.
  2. Cliff shot 15 mins before race start
  3. Sip ~8oz of Fluid Perform during first 6 miles
  4. Cliff shot at the 6 mile point
  5. Sip another ~8oz of Fluid Perform during the last half of race

My average HM time is around 2:05 and this works pretty well for me.

2014-04-22 12:36 PM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: HM hydration and nutrition questions
Originally posted by mirthfuldragon

Depends on your estimated time. Since this is your first, I imagine your finish time is probably something north of 2:15. If your first nutrition is 5 miles or about an hour in, you're probably already behind the nutritional curve. Taking a gel at mile 10 is, to me, almost pointless as well - by the time that sugar hits your bloodstream, you'll have finished the race.

Depending on the aid station layout, you'll probably be good just grabbing sports drink at each one - if they are every mile, drink a cup and a half (~6oz) every 2 or 3 stations. Eat something before the race and early on.



Well, close. I'm hoping to finish right around 2:10, based on my training runs, and the McMillan calculator. Saturday I did a 5k PR in 25:29, and my comfortable long training runs are around a 9:45-9:50 pace. My last 11 mile training run was with a 9:51 pace. Plus, I'm running with my uncle who is also doing his first HM, so I want to stay with him.

It's not that I'm "out of energy" after 7-8 miles, just that I notice an energy lag starting around there.

Did you mean a real cup and a half (12 oz) or a paper cup and a half (6 oz.)? 6 oz. sounds more reasonable to me.

I'm not a huge fan of the powdered Gatorade, and it's what they're offering - Lemon/lime flavor. So, I was thinking a gel + water might be better for me.

The HM I'm doing has water at 8 stations, and both water and Gatorade at 7 of the stations, spaced about 1.5 miles apart. There are stations at 1.5, 3.5, 4.3, 5.4, 7. 8.2, 10, and 11.7 miles. I'm now thinking of taking a gel maybe just prior to the 4.3 and 8.2 mile stations, and getting water at those stations to rinse it all down. That would be about 42 minutes in, and 1:20 in, at my target 9:55 pace, for a 2:10:00 HM.

Edited by DannyII 2014-04-22 1:04 PM
2014-04-23 12:28 AM
in reply to: DannyII

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Subject: RE: HM hydration and nutrition questions
I find that anything solid upsets my stomach. Some things more than others, and it's worse in the heat than on a cold day. I can do about 10-12 miles easy in training without anything but water, but pushing harder in a race means I need calories.

For what it's worth, here's my HM strategy:
Before: a cliff bar, and some caffeine (I only have it on big training days or race days so it really gets me going)
During: a handheld with 1 bottle of full strength gatorade. In my handheld, I have some chews (sharkies, gu, or gatorade). I'll have some between 6-9 miles if I feel like I'm fading. Last two races (my strongest two of the year), I didn't.
I'll also take water at aide stations if I need, or supplement my gatorade with what's on course if needed.

I finish my races pretty thirsty and hungry (usually take down a bottle of gatorade right away), but I rarely feel like it hampers my race. My race times are about what yours are.

TL:DR - you can probably get by with gatorade on the course as long as you eat before. However, train with gatorade or whatever the course is supplying to make sure your tummy can handle it (or bring your own in a handheld).
2014-04-23 8:01 PM
in reply to: DannyII

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Subject: RE: HM hydration and nutrition questions
I just did my first IM 70.3 and emailed Hammer Nutrition to get some advice. They provided great feedback based on my weight and ambition, but also shared links to some great articles. If you don't mind reading up a bit I suggest them:
http://www.hammernutrition.com/knowledge/tips-for-a-successful-half...
http://www.hammernutrition.com/guide
http://www.hammernutrition.com/knowledge/proper-fueling-pre-workout...
http://www.hammernutrition.com/knowledge/caloric-intake-proper-amou...
http://www.hammernutrition.com/knowledge/less-is-best-the-right-way...
http://www.hammernutrition.com/za/HNT?PAGE=ARTICLE&ARTICLE.ID=1274
http://www.hammernutrition.com/za/HNT?PAGE=ARTICLE&ARTICLE.ID=299

But if you would like the executive summary, please see highlights below

Pre-Race:
Dr. Misner's rationale - It's all in the timing

If you consume high glycemic carbohydrates such as simple sugars (or even the preferred complex carbohydrates such as starches and maltodextrins) within three hours of exercise, you can expect the following, with possible negative effects on performance:
1.Rapidly elevated blood sugar causes excess insulin release, leading to hypoglycemia, an abnormally low level of glucose in the blood.

2.High insulin levels inhibit lipid mobilization during aerobic exercise, which means reduced fats-to-fuels conversion. Our ability to utilize stored fatty acids as energy largely determines our performance, which is why we can continue to exercise when our caloric intake falls far below our energy expenditure. We want to enhance, not impede, our stored fat utilization pathways.

3.A high insulin level will induce blood sugar into muscle cells, which increases the rate of carbohydrate metabolism, hence rapid carbohydrate fuel depletion. In simple terms: high insulin means faster muscle glycogen depletion.

You must complete your pre-workout/race fueling three or more hours prior to the start to allow adequate time for insulin and blood glucose to normalize. After three hours, hormonal balance is restored, and you won’t be at risk for increased glycogen depletion. Eating within three hours of a training session or race promotes faster release/depletion of both liver and muscle glycogen and inhibits fat utilization. The combination of accelerated glycogen depletion and disruption of your primary long-distance fuel availability can devastate your performance.

Q: Should I get up during the wee hours of the morning just to get in a meal three hours before my race or workout?

A: NO - rest will help you more. Much restorative physiology occurs during sleep, so don't sacrifice sleep just to eat. If you're a fit athlete, one who has been replenishing carbohydrates immediately after each exercise session, you have approximately 60-90 minutes of muscle glycogen, your premium fuel, available. As long as you begin fueling shortly after the workout or race begins, perhaps 10-20 minutes after the start, your performance will not be affected negatively. Topping off liver glycogen stores is always a good idea, but not at the expense of sacrificing sleep, and certainly not at the expense of depleting muscle glycogen stores too quickly (by eating too soon before exercise).

During race:
Hydration:
Based on the available research, along with the thousands of athletes we have monitored, we have found that 20-25 oz/hr (approx 590-740 ml/hr) is an appropriate fluid intake for most athletes under most conditions. For lighter weight athletes, or those exercising in cooler temperatures, 16-18 oz/hr (approx 473-532 ml) may be perfect. Heavier athletes or athletes competing in hotter conditions may consider intakes upwards of 28 oz/hr (approx 830 ml/hr). We also suggest that to avoid dilutional hyponatremia, fluid intake should not routinely exceed 28 oz/hr (830 ml/hr). The exceptions are heavier athletes, athletes exercising at extreme levels (prolonged periods at a high percentage of VO2Max), and athletes competing in severe environmental conditions.

20-25 oz (approx 590-740 ml) is the equivalent of the typical regular-to-large size water bottle, and that’s an excellent gauge to work within.

Nutrition:
Hammer Gel (90 — 100 calories per serving, depending on flavor)
One gel 10 minutes before race, then:

Suggested Doses by Body Weight*:
•0 – 120 lbs (approx 54.5 kg) – up to 1 serving /hr. This provides up to 90–100 calories.
•120–155 lbs (approx 54.5–70 kg) – 1 to 2 servings/hr. This provides 90–100 to 180–200 calories.
•155–190 lbs (approx 70–86 kg) – 2 to 2.5 servings/hr. This provides 180–200 to 225–250 calories.
•190+ lbs (86+ kg) – up to 3 servings/hr. This provides 270–300 calories.

*These are estimated doses. Each athlete should determine in training, under a variety of conditions, their personal optimum.

ALL THIS SAID. HM is possible to complete without any additional nutrition, on water alone like we did in the good old days. So don't stress too much with this
2014-04-28 9:18 AM
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Subject: RE: HM hydration and nutrition questions
My first Half Marathon was a blast!!! I ran 100% of the route. I finished in 2:10:36!!! I was so happy!!!!!!

Oddly enough, I finished about 2-1/2 minutes faster than the 2:10:00 pace group, so I'm not sure what happened to them. If I stuck with them and finished 3+ minutes off my goal, I would not have been happy.

My nutrition plan worked perfectly. I took a gel 15 minutes before the start, and one just before the 4.3 and 8.2 mile water stations, and could definitely feel the energy levels boost just up a bit about 5-10 minutes after each. Zero stomach or digestion issues, too. I will definitely do that again!

My uncle and I were cruising along with mile splits right around 9:40-9:45 for the first 9 miles, then he started to fatigue (no nutrition at all, before , or during the race. He's stubborn) I slowed with him to around a 10:15 pace for a mile or a mile and a half. Then he had to walk up a hill, but told me to keep running, and so I did.

One lesson I learned - not following the shortest course route possible added .22 miles of distance for me, per my RunKeeper app that I had going the whole time. Of course at my pace, that added nearly 2 minutes to my time. Next time I'll remember that.

:-)

Edited by DannyII 2014-04-28 9:21 AM


2014-04-28 9:21 AM
in reply to: RussTKD

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Subject: RE: HM hydration and nutrition questions
Originally posted by RussTKD
This is anecdotal only, but typically for a HM, I'll have a bowl of either oatmeal or cereal before I leave the house, a gel about 15 minutes before the race starts, and a gel around the 8 mile mark.  I'll drink as necessary on the course, which usually works out to the water stops at 2, 5, 8, and 10 miles.




This is identical to my race day nutrition, but I throw a coffee in the mix as I leave the house...to get things "moving." By the time I get to the race, it's done its magic & I can take care of business & be ready to race.
2014-04-28 9:29 AM
in reply to: DannyII

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Subject: RE: HM hydration and nutrition questions
Originally posted by DannyII
One lesson I learned - not following the shortest course route possible added .22 miles of distance for me, per my RunKeeper app that I had going the whole time. Of course at my pace, that added nearly 2 minutes to my time. Next time I'll remember that.


Congrats on the race! And I feel you on the course route. Both of my full marathons measured at 26.5 & 26.6 miles because I would take corners wide, or move a lot from side to side. Just being inefficient in general. It makes sense when you are in a massive group that you may want to just stick to the middle or outside at a turn, but if you have the ability, treat the course like a T&F race. Get in that inside lane & stay there. While .3 or .4 miles may not sound like a lot, after running 26.2 miles, the last thing you want is to have to run more than necessary...not to mention the added time.
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