BT Development Mentor Program Archives » Gray Guys/Girls Masters Focus Triathlete Forum--OPEN! Rss Feed  
Moderators: alicefoeller Reply
 
 
of 40
 
 
2014-09-15 7:07 PM
in reply to: juneapple

User image

Master
1841
100050010010010025
Sendai, Japan
Subject: RE: 10K

Originally posted by juneapple 10K yesterday was okay. Time was 53.32. I went in thinking under 52 I'd be elated, over 55 disappointed, so about where I expected. Definitely was feeling tired legs and extra weight on the hills where my pace ballooned to mid 10s+. But it marked the end of my first consistent training for 4 consecutive weeks since Feb. Nothing to write home about, but it has been nice to be back into the routine again. New picture is from last year's 10K with my father-in-law, who ran it again yesterday at age 81. I'd be very happy to be cranking out 10Ks like he does 25 years from now :-)  

 

Stu: that consistency is sooo important.  Congrats on hitting a time you were satisfied with.  Running 10Ks at 81?  Wow!!  



2014-09-15 8:10 PM
in reply to: k9car363

User image

Master
1841
100050010010010025
Sendai, Japan
Subject: RE: Race Report

Originally posted by k9car363

[

Hey Dan,

Great race report.  Your difficulties with nutrition really highlight a concern I have had, namely how to simulate iron distance race day nutrition in training.  Even if I did a 100/20 brick (which I think would not be wise for any number of reasons - another discussion for another day), it still wouldn't simulate the full distance - never mind there was no swim in training, it wouldn't be simulating race day intensity, and even if it did all those things, it couldn't anticipate and wouldn't simulate race day weather.  That puts you in a position where you are somewhat guessing on what nutrition is going to work on race day, especially deep into the race.

I am curious if there was anything in training that gave you ANY indication that you might have problems with the gel you were using.  I know, silly question because if you had problem in training you likely wouldn't have used it on race day.  I am wondering more if, in hindsight, there was anything that should have raised a red flag.  Also, did you do any experimenting in training with different gels and/or sports drinks (maybe higher calorie content) and/or different gel and sport drink combinations?

You obviously made a pretty good decision switching over to coke only.  Was that a planned alternative if nutrition failed or was that a decision you made on the fly?

Sorry for all the questions.  You just lived one of my biggest fears - trouble with nutrition.  Just trying to learn from your experience.

Hi Scott.  Good questions and I wish I really knew all the answers.  Anyway:

 

  - I had no indications that the gel I used was going to cause problems, but....

  - I really only used the gel for my second race simulation and I did use it with the same sports drink (Aquarius).  I used a different nutrition approach for my first race simulation.  More on that later.

  - In my simulation, I used the gel packs.  They have plastic screw caps and are a minor pain in the butt to juggle while you are riding, i.e., one pack is 170 calories and I only want to take in 1/2 to 1/3 of that at one time.  For the race I put it all into a bottle.  That was at least one mistake.  The viscosity of the gel was such that it was a little difficult to get out of the bottle I used (a simpler, cheaper bottle would have been better).   One possible problem is that the first couple pulls I took from the gel were too large and overwhelmed my gut.   That is, in fact, my best guess at this point.  I would probably have been better off if I had added about 200cc of water into the bottle - there was room.  

  - In my simulation, temperature was pretty close (89-90) to what I had during the race.   That was a positive.

  - My simulation was certainly more relaxed that what I did during the race.  I had stop lights and stop signs to deal with and I also had to stop each hour to get more sports drink out of the vending machine.  I will guess my average heart race was a good 10 beats higher in the race, especially at the beginning, post swim. You have an even more challenging problem because you are able to swim at a pace that will significantly elevate your heart rate.  You may be able to simulate that by doing a short, faster-than-race-pace run before you start the bike.

  - In my simulation, I spent a lot less time in aero than I did during the race.  I mention it because I have read that some people have problems with digestion if their aero position is too aggressive.  Body shape can also be a factor, i.e., if you are carrying to much weight around the belly (not a problem for me).

  - If you can find a course for simulation that allows you to ride non-stop, do it.  It is worth it.  If you can get someone to support you and do bottle hand-ups, do it. 

  - Doing an HIM using your planned nutrition is also a good idea.  

  - I did trying using PowerBar gel, but I decided against it because I really cannot tolerate the flavor/sweetness.   This SAVAS stuff is actually somewhat palatable and higher calorie concentration per weight (maltodextrin based).  I can tolerate the PowerBar gel is small doses, i.e., I dilute two packs with an equal amount of water and use that on the bike in Olys. 

  - I have done a lot of training and racing with the particular sports drink.  It was available on the course and I thought it was logical to include it in my plan.   I did the HIM version of this particular race twice and had no problems on the bike.  One important note: in the HIM version last year, I drank 1.5 bottles of sports drink and 3 bottles of water.  So, I really do have to consider that the gel + sports drink + intensity + alpha? does not work for me.

  - Coke: First of all, in real life I never drink the stuff.  I turned to it on the run portion of my first HIM 3 years ago when I bonked.  It got me through the race and I probably consumed more in that race than I had in the previous 35 years.  I also used it during the second half of the run on my next two HIM distance races on Sado Island.   I know it has twice the calories of the sports drink and it is sucrose based so it gets into your bloodstream faster.   Finally, turning to coke when you are trouble is a recommendation that I have seen in a couple of places.

  - Previous nutrition approach: First of all, if you have done lots of reading on the subject, you will know that the advice for nutrition is all over the board.  Liquid only (gels and sports drink), no water versus solids and water; 250-300 calories/hour up to 500-600 calories/hour, etc.    The approach that I used in my first race simulation this year was similar to what I used in my previous two HIMs.   There is a Japanese sweet called "daifuku".  The filling is composed of red bean paste and sugar and the outside is a this glutinous rice based wrapper.  Each one is about 230 calories.  I cut them up into halves and ate one every 30 minutes.  As mentioned above, my liquid intake included sports drink, but water was 2X the sports drink.   

  - So, why did I change my nutrition approach? Because things I read convinced me that the liquid (gels + sports drink) was better.  3 days prior to the race I almost went back to including the solids into my plan.   I am not sure where I will go from here.  Whichever way I go, you can be sure that I will be using it more in practice and in both simulations next year.

 

Thanks for asking Scott.  Sorry for the verbose response, but it helped me a lot to have to talk through this.

 

 

2014-09-16 5:39 AM
in reply to: dcon

User image

Expert
1439
100010010010010025
Tallahassee
Subject: RE: Race Report
I was talking to a friend who is really good friends with a Pro triathlete in Europe, he does very well in IM in Europe and is sponsored and such so he "eats" sponsor's food...but what does he actually eat on the bike, 2 ham sandwiches with mustard. Also takes mustard packs like you get at fastfood restaurants for the run.

Personally I tried a gel 1 time and that didn't go well so I haven't tried it again. One of my favorite things is a plain old pop tart, the kind with frosting on the top. I also take skratch chews/gummies. For drinks I take a bottle of coconut water and a bottle of coconut water with pre-workout amino acid mixed in for the additional help of amino acid and I get the kind w/ a little caffeine.

Got my 5 x 1 mile intervals in today...that was tough.
2014-09-16 6:55 AM
in reply to: k9car363

User image


344
10010010025
Spencer, New York
Subject: RE: Race Report(s)
Dave: congratulations on your good race at Branford. It sounds like your training is paying off. I'm especially glad you are getting over that calf injury.
Stu: congratulations on your 10k. Accurately & realistically setting your goal and then hitting it is no small thing. Don't kick yourself if triathlons aren't fitting into your life right now. Just keep up the running or even something else. From this side of the 65 divide, I see people who are fit and active and people who are getting old fast and can enjoy only very restricted activities. We're lucky we can choose our own version of how we age.
Echo Scott: Actually I offer a hat tip to your Olympian, and to our other Scott too. It takes mental strength to watch your times slip from outstanding youthful performances and still find reasons to stay in the game, whether in the same or different sport. It may be easier for those of us who never had that experience to just enjoy the process and our small accomplishments.
I ran the first of my 6 cross-country races Sunday. It was a 5k on mostly grass with some wooded trail, a couple of significant hills. Beautiful sunny 51 degree weather. My goals were:
1.Really push myself; keep HR near LT for the last 20 minutes.
2.Finish in under 30 minutes.
3.Not be dead last.
4.Not reinjure my leg.
Results:
HR average for last 20 minutes was 1 beat less than LT.I did really push myself hard because I had 4 runners behind me and I didn't want to let them catch up.
Time was 29:38.
4th out of 6 in my AG. (which for this series is 60-69) 54th of 58 total women.
Rolled & stretched right there on the grass afterwards; I feel fine.
Deb
2014-09-16 9:44 AM
in reply to: KWDreamun

User image


238
10010025
Farmington, Connecticut
Subject: RE: Last Sprint of the season
Originally posted by KWDreamun

Were you riding a road bike or tri bike, just curious, with all the curves and avoiding crashes...lol



Thanks, Karl. I was riding a road bike.
Dave
2014-09-16 9:59 AM
in reply to: DJP_19

User image


238
10010025
Farmington, Connecticut
Subject: RE: Last Sprint of the season
Thanks, Dan and Deb for the nice words.

I'm going to enjoy a change of pace over the next couple weeks, since I"ll be on the road quite a bit.

Really looking forward to seeing Lake Tahoe and watching a bit of the Ironman race on Sunday. Then back to back business trips to Jacksonville, Fla and Lyon, France will give me some new scenery to explore during my next few runs. I just hope that l do enough running to offset the effects of a travel diet.

Have a great week.

Dave


2014-09-16 10:40 AM
in reply to: DJP_19

User image

Expert
1439
100010010010010025
Tallahassee
Subject: RE: Last Sprint of the season
I'll be in Jacksonville next week too for work, hopefully yours is vacation. Enjoy the warm weather.
2014-09-16 11:57 AM
in reply to: KWDreamun

User image

Royal(PITA)
14270
50005000200020001001002525
West Chester, Ohio
Subject: RE: Last Sprint of the season

Suggested reading for the Grey mentor group:  this months  RW has a great piece on Deana Kastor and on aging impacts to runners.

Awesome quote from an ortho to the effect that muscle decline is NOT a product of aging per se, it is more a product of DISUSE.  

2014-09-16 5:52 PM
in reply to: dcon

User image

Official BT Coach
18500
50005000500020001000500
Indianapolis, Indiana
Gold member
Subject: RE: Race Report

Originally posted by dcon

Thanks for asking Scott.  Sorry for the verbose response, but it helped me a lot to have to talk through this.

Thanks for the response Dan.  I am curious, what did you do for your race sim?

2014-09-16 8:12 PM
in reply to: k9car363

User image

Master
1841
100050010010010025
Sendai, Japan
Subject: RE: Race Report

Originally posted by k9car363

Originally posted by dcon

Thanks for asking Scott.  Sorry for the verbose response, but it helped me a lot to have to talk through this.

Thanks for the response Dan.  I am curious, what did you do for your race sim?

I was planning to send another post to explain what I did for my sims.  I have been using an Endurance Nation training plan that I bought at the end of last year.  I also have read most of their blog type postings.  One of the things they recommend is to attend an EN Camp on the course you are going to race.  Weather permitting, that camp consists of:

Day 1: ride the bike course at target race power output, run for an hour easy (zone 1)

Day 2: ride the bike course at target race power output, run for an hour easy (zone 1)

Day 3: run for 2 hours (first hour zone 1, second hour a little faster if you can)

I did travel to the course and executed as follows 5 weeks out from my IM:

Day 1: rode the 190 km bike course (normalized power 135 watts), ran for 55 minutes (it was very hot and I was toasted)

Day 2: rode 110 km on the course (normalized power 122 watts), ran for 55 minutes (Even hotter than the previous day.  I knew I could not do 190 again and I went out with permission to myself ride anywhere from 1-4 hours at an easy pace)

Day 3: 2km open swim race at 11am on the same course as the IM. In the pm I ran for 2 hours (all zone 1 - 6:40 per km).

I used the solid fuel approach that I mentioned in my previous post, but drinking was all sports drink.  No problems.  For the runs, I stuck to liquid only - mostly sports drink, but I think there was one bottle of water on the Day 3 run.   This was a very tough weekend, but I think it helped a lot.  I struggled with that swim after the previous 2 days of bike/run, but recognized that my body was really fatigued and that set me up mentally to deal with the 3.8 km swim in the triathlon.   I will use this camp method again and want to be able to do the full bike both days. 

 

For the second sim 3 weeks out from my IM:

6 hours on the bike at as near as possible to target race power (normalized power 144 watts) as possible followed by a 1 hour run zone 1 (6:05 per km).   I used the gels and sports drink for the bike and sports drink plus 1 gel about half way into the run.  The bike was again hot and humid.  The temp dropped about 10 degrees F and it started raining lightly for the run.  Boy did that feel good.

FYI:  my normalized power for the race was 138 watts.   Ideally, I wanted to be averaging 150 watts for the first hour and 165 for the rest of the course and I often did hit those numbers.  There were a bunch of downhills that I just could not pedal on, i.e., tricky hairpin stuff + steep OR steep heading into a turn where I knew the wind would change to crosswind.  The hour or so after I had the nutrition problem also knocked down my averages.   Anyway, the good news is that I have lot of room for improvement.  

 

2014-09-17 6:43 PM
in reply to: dcon

User image

Official BT Coach
18500
50005000500020001000500
Indianapolis, Indiana
Gold member
Subject: RE: Race Report

Originally posted by dcon

Originally posted by k9car363

Originally posted by dcon

Thanks for asking Scott.  Sorry for the verbose response, but it helped me a lot to have to talk through this.

Thanks for the response Dan.  I am curious, what did you do for your race sim?

I was planning to send another post to explain what I did for my sims.  I have been using an Endurance Nation training plan that I bought at the end of last year.  I also have read most of their blog type postings.  One of the things they recommend is to attend an EN Camp on the course you are going to race.  Weather permitting, that camp consists of:

Day 1: ride the bike course at target race power output, run for an hour easy (zone 1)

Day 2: ride the bike course at target race power output, run for an hour easy (zone 1)

Day 3: run for 2 hours (first hour zone 1, second hour a little faster if you can)

I did travel to the course and executed as follows 5 weeks out from my IM:

Day 1: rode the 190 km bike course (normalized power 135 watts), ran for 55 minutes (it was very hot and I was toasted)

Day 2: rode 110 km on the course (normalized power 122 watts), ran for 55 minutes (Even hotter than the previous day.  I knew I could not do 190 again and I went out with permission to myself ride anywhere from 1-4 hours at an easy pace)

Day 3: 2km open swim race at 11am on the same course as the IM. In the pm I ran for 2 hours (all zone 1 - 6:40 per km).

I used the solid fuel approach that I mentioned in my previous post, but drinking was all sports drink.  No problems.  For the runs, I stuck to liquid only - mostly sports drink, but I think there was one bottle of water on the Day 3 run.   This was a very tough weekend, but I think it helped a lot.  I struggled with that swim after the previous 2 days of bike/run, but recognized that my body was really fatigued and that set me up mentally to deal with the 3.8 km swim in the triathlon.   I will use this camp method again and want to be able to do the full bike both days. 

For the second sim 3 weeks out from my IM:

6 hours on the bike at as near as possible to target race power (normalized power 144 watts) as possible followed by a 1 hour run zone 1 (6:05 per km).   I used the gels and sports drink for the bike and sports drink plus 1 gel about half way into the run.  The bike was again hot and humid.  The temp dropped about 10 degrees F and it started raining lightly for the run.  Boy did that feel good.

FYI:  my normalized power for the race was 138 watts.   Ideally, I wanted to be averaging 150 watts for the first hour and 165 for the rest of the course and I often did hit those numbers.  There were a bunch of downhills that I just could not pedal on, i.e., tricky hairpin stuff + steep OR steep heading into a turn where I knew the wind would change to crosswind.  The hour or so after I had the nutrition problem also knocked down my averages.   Anyway, the good news is that I have lot of room for improvement.  

 

Dan,

You have pretty well answered my questions.  Your responses however have raised another question.  Back in January or February, during a conversation with one of my coaches, he suggested doing a 100/20 brick as a race simulation.  I have been VERY hesitant to do that as I have been concerned about recovery after that much of an effort.  You didn't run that far but you biked further.  Then you nearly did the same thing again the next day.  Followed by another big effort the third day.  All of that together was far more than the 100/20 brick I have been avoiding.  If I did all of what you did in the time frame you did it in, I would be all but down for at least a week, and then nothing but easy short stuff for another week or so.  You followed it two weeks later (three weeks out) with another major training effort.  My question is how did you body handle that much volume 5 weeks out and again three weeks out?  Did you have problems recovering after that much volume.  Three weeks out I can see where that would be the last long training before starting into a taper, but five weeks out, I would think the extended recovery would almost set you (me) back.  Just wondering your thoughts.



2014-09-18 11:56 AM
in reply to: EchoLkScott

User image


270
1001002525
Subject: Ramping up volume question...
By joining the Masters team, I'm rapidly increasing my swim volume. I've been doing about 3000 yards per week and I'm already approaching 7000 yards this week. I'm also ramping up my bike and run volume. I feel fine, but I'm concerned that I might be doing too much at once? Should I hold my bike and run volume constant until I've adjusted to the new swim volume?

Thanks!
Scott I.
2014-09-18 12:33 PM
in reply to: EchoLkScott

User image

Official BT Coach
18500
50005000500020001000500
Indianapolis, Indiana
Gold member
Subject: RE: Ramping up volume question...

Originally posted by EchoLkScott By joining the Masters team, I'm rapidly increasing my swim volume. I've been doing about 3000 yards per week and I'm already approaching 7000 yards this week. I'm also ramping up my bike and run volume. I feel fine, but I'm concerned that I might be doing too much at once? Should I hold my bike and run volume constant until I've adjusted to the new swim volume? Thanks! Scott I.

Hey Scott,

The nice thing about swimming is a) it is non-impact so it isn't taking a toll on your body the way running will, and b) you are for the most part, using different muscle groups then when you are running or cycling.  Because of that, you can almost consider swimming separately from the other two disciplines.  That won't be as true if you get up to high volume (+10K yards/day swim would be getting to high volume swimming).  That is of course assuming your technique is good.

As to running and cycling, the normal "rules" should apply, don't increase volume too rapidly, allow the body to adapt, etc.

Obviously as you increase volume across all three disciplines you may be increasing your fatigue level so take that into consideration.

There are some fairly good free training plans here on BT.  You might take a look at one that targets the race distance you are training for and see how the plan increases volume.  If memory serves most of the plans utilize periodization.  If you are unfamiliar with the term, it essentially refers to breaking your training down into shorter manageable periods - typically 3-6 weeks with 4 weeks being the most common.  For example, in a four week periodization cycle, you would typically build week over week for the first three weeks, then in the fourth week drop back to a level maybe halfway between week 1 and 2.  The first three weeks stress the body while the recovery week allows the body an opportunity to adapt and recover.  After the recovery week you would go to a level approximately equal to week 2 of the previous cycle and repeat the four week cycle.  That is a VERY short dirty explanation of periodization.  If you are interested in learning more you can Google 'training periodization' and you will get all kinds of sites that will give much better explanations.  Those sites will detail how to calculate the training volume, how much to drop back for recovery and where to start the new cycles.  My example hopefully just served to give an idea.

Another thing the plans do is they break up the disciplines in such a way that, while you may do multiple workouts on a single day, you will typically not do two "conflicting" workouts on the same day.  You might do something like a short run and a long bike one day, a long swim and a short run the next day, and then a short bike and a long run the next day.  That is probably not the best example but it highlights the idea - namely that you are doing complementary workouts on any given day so you are not, in total, overdoing it.

Oh yeah, the short answer to your question is there is no compelling reason to hold your cycling and running volume constant while you increase your swim assuming you are not increasing volume too quickly and you are allowing your body a chance to adapt.

Hope that helps.

2014-09-18 12:46 PM
in reply to: EchoLkScott

User image

Official BT Coach
18500
50005000500020001000500
Indianapolis, Indiana
Gold member
Subject: RE: Ramping up volume question...

Originally posted by EchoLkScott By joining the Masters team, I'm rapidly increasing my swim volume. I've been doing about 3000 yards per week and I'm already approaching 7000 yards this week. I'm also ramping up my bike and run volume. I feel fine, but I'm concerned that I might be doing too much at once? Should I hold my bike and run volume constant until I've adjusted to the new swim volume? Thanks! Scott I.

Scott,

I just had another thought regarding over-doing it.

There is a relatively easy way to tell if you are over-training,  Take your pulse every morning when you first wake up.  Very first thing - before your feet hit the floor.  That will be what is known as your resting heart rate.  Record the number every morning.  If you notice your resting heart rate declining over time, it is an indication that your fitness is improving.  On the other hand, if you notice your resting heart rate increasing over several days, it is a fairly good indication you are over-training or not allowing enough recovery.  (There will be variations day to day, you are looking for trends over several days).

Here is an article that gives a bit more detail.  It is written for runners but the principles still apply.  http://running.competitor.com/2014/06/training/think-youre-overtraining-check-your-pulse_63593

2014-09-18 1:50 PM
in reply to: k9car363

User image


270
1001002525
Subject: RE: Ramping up volume question...
Thanks Scott, great information!

Since my goal is to do Olympic distance tri's next year, I've been roughly following the BT Olympic 3x balanced 20 week plan. I adjusted the initial volume for each discipline according to my current levels. It is a volume-based plan with four-week periodization. Each week has a short, medium, and long workout for each discipline, with the short distance being 60% of the long distance. Weeks 2 and 3 of each month increase volume by 10% and the fourth week drops by 40% to facilitate rest and healing. Each month starts out 10% higher than the previous month. It seems like a good conservative plan for someone relatively new to the sport.

Of course, on the master's team I have to do what the coach tells me to do (although she is allowing me considerable flexibility until I get up to speed). That's fine, because she uses a periodization training schedule and her near term goal (through January) is to build endurance. That matches well with my goal. She's also helping me improve my swimming form (badly needed).

Also, thanks for the overtraining link. I think I'm fine. I've been measuring my resting heart rate. Not every day, but frequently. It has slowly dropped, and is certainly not rising. I don't expect it will drop much more - it's in the high 40s.

Thanks!
Scott I'
2014-09-18 2:58 PM
in reply to: EchoLkScott

User image

Official BT Coach
18500
50005000500020001000500
Indianapolis, Indiana
Gold member
Subject: RE: Ramping up volume question...

Originally posted by EchoLkScott

Of course, on the master's team I have to do what the coach tells me to do (although she is allowing me considerable flexibility until I get up to speed). That's fine, because she uses a periodization training schedule and her near term goal (through January) is to build endurance. That matches well with my goal. She's also helping me improve my swimming form (badly needed).

Thanks! Scott I'

Since you are using a BT plan you can see how the periodization works.  There is not a problem having a swim coach that is providing the swim workouts provided they generally fit in with your overall goals and training plan.  What I mean by that is you don't want to be following a triathlon plan that is working towards a sprint while your swim coach is training you for an Ironman, and visa-versa, you don't want to be training for an Ironman and your swim coach is training you for a sprint.  That wouldn't work so well.

I have separate swim, bike and run coaches and then a fitness coach that keeps everyone on the same page when he isn't killing me in the gym so having multiple coaches giving you input can work if you can keep everyone's eye on the same prize.

Originally posted by EchoLkScott

Also, thanks for the overtraining link. I think I'm fine. I've been measuring my resting heart rate. Not every day, but frequently. It has slowly dropped, and is certainly not rising. I don't expect it will drop much more - it's in the high 40s.

Thanks! Scott I'

The thing you will want to watch out for is your HR slowly rising over time (indicates overtraining), or a sudden spike (more than 6-8 BPM - indicates not recovered from a tough workout).

Happy training!



2014-09-19 7:53 AM
in reply to: QueenZipp

User image

Master
1497
1000100100100100252525
Maryland
Subject: RE: Last Sprint of the season
Originally posted by QueenZipp

Suggested reading for the Grey mentor group:  this months  RW has a great piece on Deana Kastor and on aging impacts to runners.

Awesome quote from an ortho to the effect that muscle decline is NOT a product of aging per se, it is more a product of DISUSE.  




Judi, I read this too. It was interesting to hear that even the pros are trying to keep up with training age appropriately!
2014-09-21 8:30 PM
in reply to: 0

User image

Master
1841
100050010010010025
Sendai, Japan
Subject: RE: Race Report

Originally posted by k9car363

Originally posted by dcon

Originally posted by k9car363

 

Dan,

You have pretty well answered my questions.  Your responses however have raised another question.  Back in January or February, during a conversation with one of my coaches, he suggested doing a 100/20 brick as a race simulation.  I have been VERY hesitant to do that as I have been concerned about recovery after that much of an effort.  You didn't run that far but you biked further.  Then you nearly did the same thing again the next day.  Followed by another big effort the third day.  All of that together was far more than the 100/20 brick I have been avoiding.  If I did all of what you did in the time frame you did it in, I would be all but down for at least a week, and then nothing but easy short stuff for another week or so.  You followed it two weeks later (three weeks out) with another major training effort.  My question is how did you body handle that much volume 5 weeks out and again three weeks out?  Did you have problems recovering after that much volume.  Three weeks out I can see where that would be the last long training before starting into a taper, but five weeks out, I would think the extended recovery would almost set you (me) back.  Just wondering your thoughts.

 

Hi Scott.  Sorry not to get back at you sooner.   First a few questions for you:   Do you have an Ironman race coming up?   If not, that 100/20 would certainly tell you where you are with your training.   Do you have a single plan that was produced by one of your coaches that builds to that 100/20?   Does it plan for "take it easy"  after the simulation?

Anyway, I was following a plan that started at the beginning of January.  It included quite a bit of intensity on both the bike and run.  You may recall from previous posts that I tore a muscle while running back in May.   That took a good 13 weeks out of my running (I did get in a couple runs during that time) and after recovering, I decided it was best to have zero intensity in my training runs.  I also cut back a little on the bike intensity just to further reduce the risk of re-injuring that muscle.

  - One big correction: My second simulation was only two weeks out, i.e., 13 days before race day.  So I had 3 weeks between the simulations.

 - My longest run was 2.5 hours and that was about 10 days after my big weekend.  The IM marathon was only the second marathon I have done (the previous one was in 2001)

  - My body handled that big weekend much better than I anticipated.  I was stiff and a little sore after the first day, but once I got going on the bike, I felt fine, i.e., I did not have any aches or pains that were telling me to stop.  Same thing goes for the Sunday long run.  Working through that fatigue across 2-3 days gives you a good taste of what race day is going to feel like.

  - If you decide to try the approach I used, the first day bike is the most important one.  It shows you the course and helps you dial in pacing, hydration and nutrition.  The logic behind the second day (if you feel up to it) is that you are fatigued and your body will force you to ride smarter on the tough parts of the course, i.e., ride the way you should on race day.  In reading some of the EN Camp reports, there are always some folks who cut the second day bike short or skip it so that they are able to do the run on the 3rd day.   Having said all that, there is nothing wrong with just doing a single day race sim 5 weeks out and 2 weeks out.   It is also okay to insert that big weekend at 6 or 7 weeks out.   

  - The 7 days before my big weekend looked like this (I had some swims but won't include them):

       Fri - off   Sat - 100km bike, 6 km run    Sun - off  Mon - 8 km run   Tue  - 5.5 km run   Wed - 13.5 km bike (checking my setup)  Th - transit, off

  - The 12 days after my big weekend (Fri/Sat/Sun)  looked like this:

       Mon - off   Tues - off (swim)   Wed - 30 km bike, 5 km run (these are at easy pace)    Thur - 5 km run   Fri - off   Sat - 8.5 km run  Sun - 37 km bike

       Mon - 8 km run  Tue - 45 km bike   Wed - 100 km bike   Thur - 24 km run  Fri - 6.5 km run     

 

  - My running pace on that big weekend went like this:  8/1: 55 min at 6:13 per km   8/2: 55 min at 6:31 per km  8/3: 120 min at 6:43 per km.   That simulation may well have been showing me where my actual race pace was going to end up.   In any case, the two shorter runs are supposed to be done at 30 seconds slower than your long run pace and the first hour of the 2 hour run is also supposed to be done at that pace too.  The logic there is that you are running at the pace you want to be at for the first hour off the bike in the IM (ramp up to your Easy/Z1 after that)

  - Those slower run paces do not tax your legs anywhere near as much as running in Z2-Z4.  Having said that, I am sure that all the intensity that I put in earlier in the year also made my legs more resilient.

  - Similar logic applies on the bike.  My IM race pace was targeted at 72% FTP which is a Z2 pace.  

 

I hope that helps some.  Feel free to ask more questions and share your own training/racing plans.



Edited by dcon 2014-09-21 8:33 PM
2014-09-22 2:48 PM
in reply to: dcon

User image

Official BT Coach
18500
50005000500020001000500
Indianapolis, Indiana
Gold member
Subject: RE: Race Report

Originally posted by dcon

Hi Scott.  Sorry not to get back at you sooner.   First a few questions for you:   Do you have an Ironman race coming up?   If not, that 100/20 would certainly tell you where you are with your training.   Do you have a single plan that was produced by one of your coaches that builds to that 100/20?   Does it plan for "take it easy"  after the simulation?

Hey Dan,

I had been targeting Ironman Louisville back in August as a Kona qualifying event however my run was not where it needed to be so I didn't go - didn't see any sense in spending several thousand more dollars when it wasn't gonna happen.  There is a HITS 140.6 in December out by Palm Springs (only 50 miles from my house) that I may do.

I am now questioning which event to target as a KQ attempt now that Louisville has been moved back to October (October 2015 will qualify for Kona 2016).  My fall back race was going to be Lake Tahoe (my thinking is that elevation will be the great equalizer and I only have to go about 20 miles to train/stay at 10,000 feet).  Unfortunately, with the Lake Tahoe difficulties this past weekend, I am not sure that 2015 Lake Tahoe will even have a full Ironman (this is the second consecutive year there were either major problems or a cancellation).  Lake Tahoe 2015, if there is one, would also be qualifying for Kona 2016.  Decisions, decisions.

As to having a plan, yes, I have several coaches and they all work through my main triathlon/fitness coach.  I went with several coaches because now I have experts in each of the disciplines.  Kind of like going to a specialist when you have a medical issue - the GP is nice but the expert is better.  I have direct access to all of my coaches and they confer regularly to build my training plan which I get in two week blocks.  I was roughly 6 weeks out from the IM when I decided to cancel so it was about the time I would have done the race sim.  As I said previously, I was very reluctant to do that large a sim, although, after reading about your experience, I am rethinking my position.  You have 'been there, done that' and had a generally positive experience (nutrition issues notwithstanding).

I am beginning to question the method I am using to train, or more accurately, the way my coaching is set up.  My swim coach has never done a triathlon, my cycling coach has never done a triathlon, and my running coach has never done a triathlon.  They have all done endurance events in their discipline (marathons, multi-day stage races, etc.) but none have put it all together on one day, let alone done an Ironman.  They are all GREAT at what they do, which is coach their respective sports, and I will undoubtedly continue to use them at least occasionally as I strive to improve (specifically the run).  My triathlon/fitness coach has done triathlons although his longest was several HIM's.  That is the root of my hesitation to do the 100/20 race sim.  None of them have done a 140.6 or simulated a 140.6.  When I first put this coaching plan together, I figured back when Ironman first started, nobody had any experience so it didn't matter that none of my team had the direct experience.  Now however, I see the weakness in this approach.  I am questioning some of the things they are suggesting.  Back when I was swimming, I had absolute trust in my coach.  If he had told me I had to jump off the Empire State building to get faster, I likely would have ridden the elevator up and jumped off.  Now, I question almost everything and research the things I don't outright question.  Your comments and experiences have merely served to highlight that I need to rethink what I am doing with respect to coaching.  A mistake now could easily cost a failed KQ attempt and a year of training, which I would prefer to avoid.

Thanks for all your comments!

2014-09-23 5:55 AM
in reply to: lutzman

User image

Expert
1384
1000100100100252525
Charlottesville, Virginia
Subject: RE: 10K
Originally posted by lutzman

Originally posted by juneapple

10K yesterday was okay. Time was 53.32. I went in thinking under 52 I'd be elated, over 55 disappointed, so about where I expected. Definitely was feeling tired legs and extra weight on the hills where my pace ballooned to mid 10s+. But it marked the end of my first consistent training for 4 consecutive weeks since Feb. Nothing to write home about, but it has been nice to be back into the routine again. New picture is from last year's 10K with my father-in-law, who ran it again yesterday at age 81. I'd be very happy to be cranking out 10Ks like he does 25 years from now :-)


Stu:

Nothing wrong with being a runner. We all find our own level. But, you'll like that 55+ age group.

Steve


Now, if only I were a runner! Running is the one discipline I can't stop doing. Swimming and biking I can take some time off and bounce back, but maintaining running is essential (it is also my least favorite of the three, though I've come to "enjoy" some aspects of it). Anyway, running season started yesterday in Virginia for me (first "Fall" day). Don't miss that heat at all!

And yes, Steve, I've been looking forward to the 55+s for a few years. Would like to qualify for the nationals again... done that twice, but haven't yet been able to go. Definitely a worthy goal :-) It would be fun to have you kick my butt there next year!

Stu
2014-09-23 6:22 AM
in reply to: k9car363

User image

Expert
1384
1000100100100252525
Charlottesville, Virginia
Subject: RE: Race Report
Hi Scott and Dan,

Enjoying reading your discussion. Scott, pardon me for not remembering, but have you already tackled a 70.3 race? And related to that, have you considered trying to qualify for Kona at the 70.3 distance? I haven't done the research, but I would guess it would be more difficult to qualify at that distance with regard to competition, but don't really know. Curious, but only in the academic sense :-)

Also, some interesting stats on various races here:

http://www.runtri.com/p/statsresultsanalysis.html

For what it's worth, if I were in your shoes, I'd definitely look for an iron distance coach. Getting good advice in each discipline is good, but especially in the areas of nutrition and multi-sport training (and strategy) there are some significant differences. How you'd train for a stand-alone marathon is different than how you'd train for a marathon as part of an Ironman. Who is overseeing that?

Stu


2014-09-23 6:39 PM
in reply to: k9car363

User image

Master
1841
100050010010010025
Sendai, Japan
Subject: Race Simulations

Originally posted by k9car363

Originally posted by dcon

Hi Scott.  Sorry not to get back at you sooner.   First a few questions for you:   Do you have an Ironman race coming up?   If not, that 100/20 would certainly tell you where you are with your training.   Do you have a single plan that was produced by one of your coaches that builds to that 100/20?   Does it plan for "take it easy"  after the simulation?

Hey Dan,

I had been targeting Ironman Louisville back in August as a Kona qualifying event however my run was not where it needed to be so I didn't go - didn't see any sense in spending several thousand more dollars when it wasn't gonna happen.  There is a HITS 140.6 in December out by Palm Springs (only 50 miles from my house) that I may do.

I am now questioning which event to target as a KQ attempt now that Louisville has been moved back to October (October 2015 will qualify for Kona 2016).  My fall back race was going to be Lake Tahoe (my thinking is that elevation will be the great equalizer and I only have to go about 20 miles to train/stay at 10,000 feet).  Unfortunately, with the Lake Tahoe difficulties this past weekend, I am not sure that 2015 Lake Tahoe will even have a full Ironman (this is the second consecutive year there were either major problems or a cancellation).  Lake Tahoe 2015, if there is one, would also be qualifying for Kona 2016.  Decisions, decisions.

As to having a plan, yes, I have several coaches and they all work through my main triathlon/fitness coach.  I went with several coaches because now I have experts in each of the disciplines.  Kind of like going to a specialist when you have a medical issue - the GP is nice but the expert is better.  I have direct access to all of my coaches and they confer regularly to build my training plan which I get in two week blocks.  I was roughly 6 weeks out from the IM when I decided to cancel so it was about the time I would have done the race sim.  As I said previously, I was very reluctant to do that large a sim, although, after reading about your experience, I am rethinking my position.  You have 'been there, done that' and had a generally positive experience (nutrition issues notwithstanding).

I am beginning to question the method I am using to train, or more accurately, the way my coaching is set up.  My swim coach has never done a triathlon, my cycling coach has never done a triathlon, and my running coach has never done a triathlon.  They have all done endurance events in their discipline (marathons, multi-day stage races, etc.) but none have put it all together on one day, let alone done an Ironman.  They are all GREAT at what they do, which is coach their respective sports, and I will undoubtedly continue to use them at least occasionally as I strive to improve (specifically the run).  My triathlon/fitness coach has done triathlons although his longest was several HIM's.  That is the root of my hesitation to do the 100/20 race sim.  None of them have done a 140.6 or simulated a 140.6.  When I first put this coaching plan together, I figured back when Ironman first started, nobody had any experience so it didn't matter that none of my team had the direct experience.  Now however, I see the weakness in this approach.  I am questioning some of the things they are suggesting.  Back when I was swimming, I had absolute trust in my coach.  If he had told me I had to jump off the Empire State building to get faster, I likely would have ridden the elevator up and jumped off.  Now, I question almost everything and research the things I don't outright question.  Your comments and experiences have merely served to highlight that I need to rethink what I am doing with respect to coaching.  A mistake now could easily cost a failed KQ attempt and a year of training, which I would prefer to avoid.

Thanks for all your comments!

Scott,

First of all, I think it is great that you are able to invest in the individual coaching.  I am sure you are getting great advice from the specialists including form/technique.   If your triathlon/fitness coach has experience coaching IM distance triathletes (age groupers or otherwise), then sounds like you have a good combination going.   If that coach is suggesting the 100/20 combination knowing that you are not doing an IM event until next fall, it is probably a good thing.  However, I would expect it to be followed by one week off and and 2-3 weeks slowly building back up to intensity, i.e., just like you would after doing an IM.

I have read quite a bit and looked at quite a few plans.  I have not seen anyone recommend a 20 mile run as part of a same-day simulation.  I have seen plans with long runs up to 3 hours - Berhardt, for example, includes three 3 hour runs in one of her IM plans.   I have seen a 20 mile run as part of a multi-day simulation:

 

http://www.endurancecorner.com/How_to_Qualify/Gordo/specific_preparation_for_kona_ironman_qualification_2

 

Also worthwhile to read the part 1 of that article (link is at the bottom left of the page).   Another article from Gordo includes biking with some higher intensity level work followed by a 10km run:

http://www.endurancecorner.com/How_To_Qualify/Gordo/race_sim

Hope some of that helps you decide on what direction to take.   

 

2014-09-24 7:56 PM
in reply to: juneapple

User image

Official BT Coach
18500
50005000500020001000500
Indianapolis, Indiana
Gold member
Subject: RE: Race Report

Originally posted by juneapple

Hi Scott and Dan,

Enjoying reading your discussion. Scott, pardon me for not remembering, but have you already tackled a 70.3 race? And related to that, have you considered trying to qualify for Kona at the 70.3 distance? I haven't done the research, but I would guess it would be more difficult to qualify at that distance with regard to competition, but don't really know. Curious, but only in the academic sense :-)

Also, some interesting stats on various races here:

http://www.runtri.com/p/statsresultsanalysis.html

For what it's worth, if I were in your shoes, I'd definitely look for an iron distance coach. Getting good advice in each discipline is good, but especially in the areas of nutrition and multi-sport training (and strategy) there are some significant differences. How you'd train for a stand-alone marathon is different than how you'd train for a marathon as part of an Ironman. Who is overseeing that?

Stu

Hey Stu,

No, I have not done an official HIM.  I have done a few Oly's and did an unofficial 70.3 a few weeks ago.  Yes, I thought about all the various ways to qualify for Kona.  For me, doing a full distance qualifier seems the best.  You are right, the 70.3 would actually be a tougher race to qualify with because everyone would be that much faster.  My main consideration is that there is typically only one Kona spot available in the 55-59 age group so I pretty much have to win my age group.  All of the hard work is going into the qualification and Kona will be the prize.  There is no way I will be able to podium overall in Kona (or the qualifier for that matter) so once I qualify for Kona, my plan is to enjoy every inch of the race - as Mac Davis use to say, "You gotta stop and smell the roses," or orchids as the case may be.

Thanks for the link to the stats page.  You know I am an I.T. Consultant so that immediately puts me into the geek category.  Now I have something to really obsess over for the next month!

As to me having an Iron distance coach.  Like I said earlier, I am rethinking my strategy.  My swim coach is more of a fall back to just check technique now and again to make sure all is still good.  My cycling coach is kind of the same thing although he has certainly helped with form.  My run coach on the other hand has been a tremendous resource.  He alone is responsible for me dropping nearly 5:00/mile off my run pace in the past year.  NEVER let it be said that form doesn't matter in running!  I envision still consulting with each of them regularly (monthly?) except the run coach who I plan to surgically join to my hip!  Just kidding but you get the idea, he isn't going anywhere.

The change I am contemplating is with my main coach.  I think I need someone who has actually done a full Iron.  Hearing Dan's explanation of his nutrition problems brought my concerns to the forefront.  Add to that the fact that Dan's race sim was considerably different from the race sim I was planning and that I question nearly everything I am told and it is clearly time for a change.  To date, each of my individual coaches have pretty much had the responsibility to provide the workouts in their specialty area and the main guy has done the logistics to tie it all together.  I am thinking I need one person doing the workouts, nutrition guidance, race strategy and all of the other minutia that goes into a successful Ironman, with the specialty coaches providing form and technique input as needed.  Add to that that I am strongly leaning towards Lake Tahoe next September as my qualification attempt and consider the elevation at Lake Tahoe (over 6,000 feet) and I need to go in a different direction.

I just keep telling myself, if this was easy, everyone would be doing it.

2014-09-24 8:03 PM
in reply to: dcon

User image

Official BT Coach
18500
50005000500020001000500
Indianapolis, Indiana
Gold member
Subject: RE: Race Simulations

Originally posted by dcon

Scott,

. . . I have read quite a bit and looked at quite a few plans.  I have not seen anyone recommend a 20 mile run as part of a same-day simulation.  I have seen plans with long runs up to 3 hours - Berhardt, for example, includes three 3 hour runs in one of her IM plans.   I have seen a 20 mile run as part of a multi-day simulation:

 http://www.endurancecorner.com/How_to_Qualify/Gordo/specific_preparation_for_kona_ironman_qualification_2

 Also worthwhile to read the part 1 of that article (link is at the bottom left of the page).   Another article from Gordo includes biking with some higher intensity level work followed by a 10km run:

http://www.endurancecorner.com/How_To_Qualify/Gordo/race_sim

Hope some of that helps you decide on what direction to take.   

 

You read a lot also?  My gosh, if I had a nickle for every minute I have spent researching and reading I could retire.  Thanks for the links and the back and forth over this.  It has really helped me organize my thoughts and where I want my training to go next season.

2014-09-26 7:32 PM
in reply to: k9car363

User image

Master
1841
100050010010010025
Sendai, Japan
Subject: Racing this weekend?

Kinda quiet in here lately.  Is anyone else racing this weekend?   I am heading out the door for my last triathlon of the year - an Oly on Sunday.  The weather forecast looks great - actually zero chance of rain according to the weather dudes.   In retrospect, I should probably not have signed up for this race as it comes too close on the heels of my full distance race.  I am planning to swim easy, bike hard (flat course) and see what is left in the tank for the run.

New Thread
BT Development Mentor Program Archives » Gray Guys/Girls Masters Focus Triathlete Forum--OPEN! Rss Feed  
 
 
of 40
 
 
RELATED POSTS

Beer Drinker Accountability/Appreciation Society - Open Pages: 1 ... 55 56 57 58

Started by Qua17
Views: 47144 Posts: 1446

2014-12-21 7:19 PM Qua17

Slornow and Wannabefaster's Summer Group-CLOSED Pages: 1 ... 51 52 53 54

Started by slornow
Views: 50184 Posts: 1331

2014-12-18 10:15 PM wannabefaster

Jim Kelley's (Birkierunner) General and Long Course Group (Open) Pages: 1 ... 6 7 8 9

Started by Birkierunner
Views: 19321 Posts: 218

2014-12-22 1:14 PM Birkierunner

Playmobil31's Group - Open

Started by playmobil31
Views: 65 Posts: 1

2011-12-18 3:37 PM playmobil31