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2014-10-28 7:39 AM
in reply to: Jason N

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!!

Originally posted by Jason N

Originally posted by Fred D

Lastly, I have been accepted for TEAM ZOOT 2015.

I'm really pumped about this!

Seemed like a no brainer to me.    Congrats. 

I was thinking the same thing!  Congrats!



2014-10-28 7:43 AM
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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!!

Originally posted by axteraa

Originally posted by Birkierunner

The other day I reached out to a friend of mine for some swim help. He finished 3rd in the M45-49 at IM WI last month with a 10:01 and had a 50:52 swim split. I think next year will be his 3rd trip to Kona.  He said he'd be happy to do some one on one work with me so I will meet him at the Y tonight.  If I can fix my swim issues I might have a fighting chance at KQ one of these times.  I have no delusions that there is a silver bullet but I'd like to know if there are glaring issues with my stroke.  Fingers crossed.

Hope it works out for you Jim!  

Thanks.  He watched me for a couple hundred and came over and said "there's a lot I like about your stroke".  He did say I need to lengthen out a little more so that I get more rotation but he liked how high my hips were in the water.  When I did another 100 focusing on lengthening the glide a touch he said it looked great.  I was very relieved that he didn't rattle off a long list of faults.  He said there is still a lot of work to do because engraining that small change will take a couple of months.  We also chatted a bit about my IM swim training.

Fred, I agree with you on the swim focus and have known it deep down for a couple years.  I just need to bite the bullet but have always feared the potential burnout from spending so much time in the pool during winter when I'd rather be out doing some x-c skiing/racing in addition to bike and run.  But I agree that its low hanging fruit that needs to be picked.  Thanks for the input.



Edited by Birkierunner 2014-10-28 7:50 AM
2014-10-28 8:09 AM
in reply to: ligersandtions

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!!
Originally posted by ligersandtions

I'm planning on doing a Turkey Trot toward the end of November.  If I can find a 10k in mid-December, I may throw that in there as well.  The next HM is on January 18, so 12 weeks from Sunday's race -- unfortunately not a ton of time to add in short races, but I know I will do at least one, maybe two. 

As for my run at Tremblant -- I've always said I feel like I run better off the bike, so I'm actually not terribly surprised that I'm not a lot faster in a stand alone.  Also, the hills of that course were kind of a nice way to break things up....and hit different muscles as certain ones get fatigued.  I'd like to go sub-1:50 in January, so we'll see if my training will allow for that.

This kind of goes back to what Neil was talking about for his power testing -- how do you know you've found the right balance of starting conservatively, but not so much that you feel like you left time out there?  Obviously having this baseline, knowing what I can do on a 5k/10k race, and my training will provide insight, but I suspect it's going to take more than 12 weeks to figure out how to pace a HM really well




I can only speak for myself but I have found that pacing both my power tests and runs always yields best results when I do a very slight negative split or attempt to.

So for power, if I was going for say 280 on the bike I would start at 276ish and ty to finish at 285ish. Last year for a few tests I actually put the computrainer in Erg mode, did a very slight ramp (like the 276 to 285) and if you still have some juice left, continue on. The CP model allows and even is better with tests from 20 to 30min. On the topic of power, I think the 5' test is as critical, if not more than the 20' test.

Same for a HM. You can predict pretty accurately what your time will be and adjust your pace. Had it been me, with your 1:57 Tremblant run, I would have done 1:50/13 and started there. But there are some key workouts I would have wanted in me prior to doing that. One, for example is a certain amount of time at tempo during my long runs.

I think it's good that your HM is probably slightly higher than what you are capable of on rested, properly tapered legs. Get your McMillan or Daniel's paces and you will see how hard they are for you to hit. Better numbers slightly conservative.

And BTW, your will do much better that 1h50. 1h48 IMO.



2014-10-28 8:18 AM
in reply to: marcag

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!!

Originally posted by marcag 

Nicole, a couple of things went through my mind a- good for you for testing yourself on something as difficult as a HM. They hurt b- I have a feeling you have lots of room to improve. To go 1:57 at Tremblant with those brutal hills after 56 miles on the bike....somehow I would have predicted sub or closer to 1:50 for you. BUT....I don't know how much you trained and maybe you are just an endurance machine. c- Ben asked about other races. Doing a 5k may provide you some insight into how much speed you have and then you can see where your strengths/areas to work are.

I was thinking that and also just for learning to race and run. Can get in a lot more shorter ones without too much difficulty. Plus the races themselves will more closely match the hard workouts, easier to switch them in. Among other things. I'm thinking more of how to build up a solid program and understanding of running as opposed to becoming *too* specific to the target all the time. Not that anything said is doing that, but it is easy to fall into.

Nicole, if you're really running better, or almost as good, off the bike as in a stand-alone then I really wonder about the warm-up and pacing. You do want to be spent at the end, but this actually isn't that hard to do as a strong late kick or going out way too fast can do that. Watch the pacing through the race though. Generally it should be really consistent to a slight negative split. This can vary some with things like terrain or wind.

2014-10-28 8:57 AM
in reply to: marcag

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2014-10-28 8:59 AM
in reply to: Birkierunner

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2014-10-28 10:54 AM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!!
Originally posted by Fred D
Our co-captain this year was 3rd at Ultraman Florida and is racing Ultraman Hawaii next month.


Remember the guy we met after Tremblant 70.3 that I said was an Ultra guy ? Tony. He is doing Hawaii as well
He won IMMT 50-54 this year as a warm up to it.
Should be exciting.



As for being on a team, you probably regret having signed with Zoot now that TRS has announced a team...right ? [pink off]

Edited by marcag 2014-10-28 11:31 AM
2014-10-28 1:31 PM
in reply to: Fred D

Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!!

Originally posted by Fred D

Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by Fred D

Lastly, I have been accepted for TEAM ZOOT 2015.

I'm really pumped about this!

Congratulations team Zoot is a prestigious group. Well deserved What are the benefits of such sponsorship ? I was a TP ambassador one year and they provided lots of free stuff. Does Zoot do the same ?

Lots of benefits:

....

What...no trucker hat?  LOL.  I love zoot clothing.  

2014-10-28 1:35 PM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!!
Originally posted by Fred D

Originally posted by Birkierunner

 

Fred, I agree with you on the swim focus and have known it deep down for a couple years.  I just need to bite the bullet but have always feared the potential burnout from spending so much time in the pool during winter when I'd rather be out doing some x-c skiing/racing in addition to bike and run.  But I agree that its low hanging fruit that needs to be picked.  Thanks for the input.

Jim, you need to find a masters-type group. I swim with a nice group, where I am a bit slower than most of the lane, but it helps motivation a ton.

Triathletes under-estimate how important swimming in a group really is...




Some random observations. I probably knocked off 2 minutes on the HIM this year. I was 34min in 2012 and am now at 31 and comfortable I will go under 30 next season. But I struggle with the swim, it ain't easy

- Swimming in a group is better. They push you. Brian Stover coached me 2 years ago and told me that his athletes that do best on the swim are part of masters programs. I do think the quality of the coach is half the solution, being pushed by others is the other half.
- While trying to tweak my technique, I never took my eye off the clock. This is probably wrong, but I found in previous years that if I simply focused on the technique, I may actually be getting slower.
- I didn't swim with masters but I did use a structured plan. I used swim workouts in a binder.
- I used my 910xt a lot. By properly labelling workouts, I was able to compare workouts. So for example, if ESpeed1 was on the schedule, I would look how I executed it last time and try to up it a little.
- For me, frequency trumped volume per session. The more often I swam the better
- It can be extremely frustrating how quickly you lose what you gain. You go for 12 weeks, 4x per week and you see significant progress. Then you take your foot off the pedal for a few weeks and boom, you take 3 steps back. I believe guys that grew up swimming have it permanently etched into their systems. Adult swimmers can improve, but those improvements are quickly forgotten. So I love the concept of a 'swim focus' but unless you plan to maintain it, albeit with a little less volume, I question the value.
- For me, body position was more important than anything. That being said, my catch impacted my position.
- I swam a lot with a wetsuit this summer. I think I "otpimized" my swimming with a wetsuit. When i got back in the pool, my pool swimming had regressed. this to say that some technique correction will not help you as much in a wetsuit
- swim meets, maintaining PBs go a long way for motivation
- Under water video is very eye opening. Very
- I am getting better at pacing. I can actually pace things now :-). I can also tell when I am off pace. First 100m of a workout, I can predict what kind of workout it's going to be.
- My Cadence is key. I may consider training with a metronome at one point



Edited by marcag 2014-10-28 1:49 PM
2014-10-28 1:43 PM
in reply to: Jason N

Extreme Veteran
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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!!
Originally posted by Jason N

Originally posted by Fred D

Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by Fred D

Lastly, I have been accepted for TEAM ZOOT 2015.

I'm really pumped about this!

Congratulations team Zoot is a prestigious group. Well deserved What are the benefits of such sponsorship ? I was a TP ambassador one year and they provided lots of free stuff. Does Zoot do the same ?

Lots of benefits:

....

What...no trucker hat?  LOL.  I love zoot clothing.  




We need to start our own team. Get Trucker hats and if we sell them to ourselves at a discount, we are considered sponsored athletes :-)

I have to say, I did like TP. Everything was free. Decent kits : bike Jersey, bike shorts, bib, tri shorts, tri top, hats, socks, t-shirts. Bunch of discounts and free TP Premium for a year. Free software like WKO etc.
2014-10-28 3:10 PM
in reply to: Jason N

Master
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Northern IL
Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!!

Originally posted by Jason N

Originally posted by Fred D

Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by Fred D

Lastly, I have been accepted for TEAM ZOOT 2015.

I'm really pumped about this!

Congratulations team Zoot is a prestigious group. Well deserved What are the benefits of such sponsorship ? I was a TP ambassador one year and they provided lots of free stuff. Does Zoot do the same ?

Lots of benefits:

....

What...no trucker hat?  LOL.  I love zoot clothing.  

Short people ...

Nice going Fred!



2014-10-28 3:26 PM
in reply to: marcag

Master
10208
50005000100100
Northern IL
Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!!

And to add some to this (in a little rush) ...

Originally posted by marcag

 Some random observations. I probably knocked off 2 minutes on the HIM this year. I was 34min in 2012 and am now at 31 and comfortable I will go under 30 next season. But I struggle with the swim, it ain't easy

- Swimming in a group is better. They push you. Brian Stover coached me 2 years ago and told me that his athletes that do best on the swim are part of masters programs. I do think the quality of the coach is half the solution, being pushed by others is the other half. Swimming with others of similar ability was a good push (no you will NOT pull ahead of me!). Also helpful was seeing the faster guys a lane over. Each one up was a bit more smooth & relaxed yet moving very well. Seeing it in person and being right with them was helpful and motivational.

- While trying to tweak my technique, I never took my eye off the clock. This is probably wrong, but I found in previous years that if I simply focused on the technique, I may actually be getting slower. I watched at times too mid-interval. I could find things like some 200's I'd open with 1:15, but still end up near 2:40 to finish it. Felt ok, but that's really not good on the pacing. Or rather my control of technique as the effort felt ok and I was finishing each interval consistently.

- I didn't swim with masters but I did use a structured plan. I used swim workouts in a binder. I used that too for my own swims. It was helpful to have some structure so I wouldn't have to think or remember as much. However, I would have preferred more shorter work than they give. Too many things above 200. I did break them apart at times. Waterproof and compact is nice though!

- I used my 910xt a lot. By properly labelling workouts, I was able to compare workouts. So for example, if ESpeed1 was on the schedule, I would look how I executed it last time and try to up it a little.

- For me, frequency trumped volume per session. The more often I swam the better. I saw it as volume through frequency. Hard to not have good volume for a triathlete when swimming very often. Definitely the skill part making it work like this. Did have to remember to really pay attention every day. Always have a strong mental focus even if the work is at an easier effort.

- It can be extremely frustrating how quickly you lose what you gain. You go for 12 weeks, 4x per week and you see significant progress. Then you take your foot off the pedal for a few weeks and boom, you take 3 steps back. I believe guys that grew up swimming have it permanently etched into their systems. Adult swimmers can improve, but those improvements are quickly forgotten. So I love the concept of a 'swim focus' but unless you plan to maintain it, albeit with a little less volume, I question the value.

- For me, body position was more important than anything. That being said, my catch impacted my position. Second part was so true for me. Some parts of the body were out, but everything had to somehow relate to the catch in order to show improvement.

- I swam a lot with a wetsuit this summer. I think I "otpimized" my swimming with a wetsuit. When i got back in the pool, my pool swimming had regressed. this to say that some technique correction will not help you as much in a wetsuit. Had some fixing to do after every wetsuit swim, hehe.

- swim meets, maintaining PBs go a long way for motivation. These things are great. Putting yourself out there. All the sudden so many little things we've glossed over before seem to be incredibly important.

- Under water video is very eye opening. Very. Really wish I had done this.

- I am getting better at pacing. I can actually pace things now :-). I can also tell when I am off pace. First 100m of a workout, I can predict what kind of workout it's going to be.

- My Cadence is key. I may consider training with a metronome at one point

2014-10-28 3:36 PM
in reply to: Fred D

Seattle
Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!!

Originally posted by Fred D

Originally posted by Birkierunner

 

Fred, I agree with you on the swim focus and have known it deep down for a couple years.  I just need to bite the bullet but have always feared the potential burnout from spending so much time in the pool during winter when I'd rather be out doing some x-c skiing/racing in addition to bike and run.  But I agree that its low hanging fruit that needs to be picked.  Thanks for the input.

Jim, you need to find a masters-type group. I swim with a nice group, where I am a bit slower than most of the lane, but it helps motivation a ton.

Triathletes under-estimate how important swimming in a group really is...

I imagine that goes for the other two disciplines as well. 

2014-10-28 6:05 PM
in reply to: Asalzwed

Elite
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PEI, Canada
Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!!

I just took a look at my swim workout for tomorrow.  It has a set of 30 x 50 on 1:01 with the only rule being that I have to finish each 50 before the clock gets back to the top.  I did this one other time a couple of years ago with the swim team kids and made it to #29 or 30.  I'm not sure I have the top end speed right now to make it that far tomorrow but we'll see!  It's one of those sets that goes from "pretty easy" to "holy effin' hard" in a hurry.

2014-10-28 6:19 PM
in reply to: brigby1

Elite
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PEI, Canada
Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!!

Originally posted by brigby1

And to add some to this (in a little rush) ...

Originally posted by marcag

 Some random observations. I probably knocked off 2 minutes on the HIM this year. I was 34min in 2012 and am now at 31 and comfortable I will go under 30 next season. But I struggle with the swim, it ain't easy

- Swimming in a group is better. They push you. Brian Stover coached me 2 years ago and told me that his athletes that do best on the swim are part of masters programs. I do think the quality of the coach is half the solution, being pushed by others is the other half. Swimming with others of similar ability was a good push (no you will NOT pull ahead of me!). Also helpful was seeing the faster guys a lane over. Each one up was a bit more smooth & relaxed yet moving very well. Seeing it in person and being right with them was helpful and motivational.

- While trying to tweak my technique, I never took my eye off the clock. This is probably wrong, but I found in previous years that if I simply focused on the technique, I may actually be getting slower. I watched at times too mid-interval. I could find things like some 200's I'd open with 1:15, but still end up near 2:40 to finish it. Felt ok, but that's really not good on the pacing. Or rather my control of technique as the effort felt ok and I was finishing each interval consistently.

- I didn't swim with masters but I did use a structured plan. I used swim workouts in a binder. I used that too for my own swims. It was helpful to have some structure so I wouldn't have to think or remember as much. However, I would have preferred more shorter work than they give. Too many things above 200. I did break them apart at times. Waterproof and compact is nice though!

- I used my 910xt a lot. By properly labelling workouts, I was able to compare workouts. So for example, if ESpeed1 was on the schedule, I would look how I executed it last time and try to up it a little.

- For me, frequency trumped volume per session. The more often I swam the better. I saw it as volume through frequency. Hard to not have good volume for a triathlete when swimming very often. Definitely the skill part making it work like this. Did have to remember to really pay attention every day. Always have a strong mental focus even if the work is at an easier effort.

- It can be extremely frustrating how quickly you lose what you gain. You go for 12 weeks, 4x per week and you see significant progress. Then you take your foot off the pedal for a few weeks and boom, you take 3 steps back. I believe guys that grew up swimming have it permanently etched into their systems. Adult swimmers can improve, but those improvements are quickly forgotten. So I love the concept of a 'swim focus' but unless you plan to maintain it, albeit with a little less volume, I question the value.

- For me, body position was more important than anything. That being said, my catch impacted my position. Second part was so true for me. Some parts of the body were out, but everything had to somehow relate to the catch in order to show improvement.

- I swam a lot with a wetsuit this summer. I think I "otpimized" my swimming with a wetsuit. When i got back in the pool, my pool swimming had regressed. this to say that some technique correction will not help you as much in a wetsuit. Had some fixing to do after every wetsuit swim, hehe.

- swim meets, maintaining PBs go a long way for motivation. These things are great. Putting yourself out there. All the sudden so many little things we've glossed over before seem to be incredibly important.

- Under water video is very eye opening. Very. Really wish I had done this.

- I am getting better at pacing. I can actually pace things now :-). I can also tell when I am off pace. First 100m of a workout, I can predict what kind of workout it's going to be.

- My Cadence is key. I may consider training with a metronome at one point

All good stuff Marc and Ben!

Marc, your comment about how you can quickly lose what you gain from a swim focus has some truth.  It's probably a process over 6 months or more (probably more) of solid consistent work to really imprint something that will stick forever.  I have a buddy here that started swimming around age 30 and is now a 1:00-1:03 IM swimmer but he swam with a fast masters group for years to get himself there.  However, he did manage to get himself to the point where he can take time off now and still get himself back in reasonable swim shape fairly quickly.

I like the comments about watching the clock.  It's crucial - look at it after every.single.repeat and like Ben said, for longer ones, within the repeat if you can do so without disrupting things.  Pay attention to what works, and what doesn't.

2014-10-28 6:40 PM
in reply to: Asalzwed

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2014-10-28 6:42 PM
in reply to: Fred D

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2014-10-28 6:43 PM
in reply to: axteraa

Master
10208
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Northern IL
Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!!

Originally posted by axteraa

I just took a look at my swim workout for tomorrow.  It has a set of 30 x 50 on 1:01 with the only rule being that I have to finish each 50 before the clock gets back to the top.  I did this one other time a couple of years ago with the swim team kids and made it to #29 or 30.  I'm not sure I have the top end speed right now to make it that far tomorrow but we'll see!  It's one of those sets that goes from "pretty easy" to "holy effin' hard" in a hurry.

Took a sec to get that one, sounds like fun! 

Really wishing there was a pace clock at the gym I went to. Wanted to more of a couple sets Bo brought up. 3 x (20 x 25) on :25 (:30 bonus per round), come in like :15-:17. Did a best guess on that one once. Other is similar but with something like 50 x 50 on :45. "Lose your lunch sets" was his description.

2014-10-28 6:52 PM
in reply to: Fred D

Master
10208
50005000100100
Northern IL
Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!!

Originally posted by Fred D

Awesome stuff about swimming.

I still think we need a group swimming yardage (or meterage) challenge. Many of us would benefit greatly by a swim focus. Neil, Jim, *cough, *cough ;-)

 

Thanks for the kind words on Team Zoot. I think they cut down the roster some, so I feel thankful to have made the team!

Is there any more info on the team? I see a Facebook page, but can't seem to find more info like the older Zoot Ultra web page.

2014-10-28 9:04 PM
in reply to: 0

Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!!

For those of you who are Strava premium members, it seems that there is a new feature for the "Freshness and Fitness" chart.  Prior, it only took into account rides with a power meter and calculated your fitness based on training load (or TSS).  If you did a ride (or run for that matter) without a power meter, you wouldn't get any credit for it on the chart.

Now it seems they have changed their metric slightly to account for "Training Impact", which seems to calculate training load from HR if a PM is not present.  This works for running as well.  Not sure if there is a formula to calculate training impact for swimming.  But in essence, they are at least trying to create a performance management chart that combines running and cycling.

Granted, I think the algorithm for using HR needs to be tweaked a bit.  For some of my daily commuting (now on my CX bike that doesn't have power), it's showing a training impact of 145 for roughly 2.25 hours of riding.  There's no way I'm riding hard enough to generate 145 TSS on these rides...or roughly 80% of FTP.

You do have the option to select power meter only, HR only, or HR and power to populate the chart.



Edited by Jason N 2014-10-28 9:05 PM
2014-10-29 6:45 AM
in reply to: brigby1

Elite
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PEI, Canada
Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!!

Originally posted by brigby1

Originally posted by axteraa

I just took a look at my swim workout for tomorrow.  It has a set of 30 x 50 on 1:01 with the only rule being that I have to finish each 50 before the clock gets back to the top.  I did this one other time a couple of years ago with the swim team kids and made it to #29 or 30.  I'm not sure I have the top end speed right now to make it that far tomorrow but we'll see!  It's one of those sets that goes from "pretty easy" to "holy effin' hard" in a hurry.

Took a sec to get that one, sounds like fun! 

Really wishing there was a pace clock at the gym I went to. Wanted to more of a couple sets Bo brought up. 3 x (20 x 25) on :25 (:30 bonus per round), come in like :15-:17. Did a best guess on that one once. Other is similar but with something like 50 x 50 on :45. "Lose your lunch sets" was his description.

I made it to #29, last one I touched on :01 - completely wiped.  

There is no pace clock at your pool?  That makes it tough for sure.  I'm lucky ours has a big digital clock with the time of day (w/ seconds) up high on the wall.  Makes it much easier.



2014-10-29 8:08 AM
in reply to: axteraa

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2014-10-29 8:10 AM
in reply to: Jason N

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2014-10-29 8:15 AM
in reply to: Fred D

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!!

Originally posted by Fred D

No way I can do that workout, even in a yard pool. (and I suspect you were in a metric one!)

It's definitely designed for someone my speed.  You can just adjust it for yourself though - if your fastest possible 50 is a :35, you try to do 25x50 or if it's :40 then you do 20x50.  Beyond that, the set is getting a bit short and you aren't getting enough recovery to really hit it hard.

2014-10-29 12:06 PM
in reply to: Fred D

Seattle
Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!!

Originally posted by Fred D

Originally posted by Asalzwed

 

 

I imagine that goes for the other two disciplines as well. 

I'm not sure (as much).

Running in a group can be great if all the same or similar speed, however, for me, I have caused injuries to myself by trying to 'keep up' with faster runners.

On the bike, riding in the group has definite benefits, but it is a totally different kind of riding. We were pushing 600+ watts at various intervals on today's ride... that isn't necessarily ideal ironman training. I do think a once a week group ride is of great benefit to most triathletes.

I tend to run alone...

I guess maybe I am assuming a certain level of discipline but there has been nothing better for me than running in a group. It would be pretty silly to just go out with a random group and hope you all have the same pace and goals.

Of course I am pretty lucky and we have, essentially, pace groups that are separated by VDOT. 

 

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Don't be scared for the swim! Gain more confidence for your open water swims with these tips
 
date : September 25, 2007
author : Tri Swim Coach
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Discussion on sinking hips, balance drills, open water freak-out, best breathing for open water swimming and head position.