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2014-11-26 3:49 PM
in reply to: ligersandtions

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!!

Racing a 5k Turkey Trot tomorrow.  A friend of mine sent me a nice reminder in an email the other day.  She said, "Just remember, if it hurts, you're doing it right."  I suspect it will hurt....sufficiently



2014-11-27 10:56 AM
in reply to: ligersandtions

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2014-11-27 11:07 AM
in reply to: Fred D

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!!

Happy American Turkey day everyone

Drive safe!

2014-11-27 11:10 AM
in reply to: spudone

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!!

Originally posted by spudone

Happy American Turkey day everyone

Drive safe!

Yes, happy turkey day!  I had leftover turkey (not from our thanksgiving ) for lunch in honor of yours.

2014-11-27 11:36 AM
in reply to: axteraa

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2014-11-27 3:16 PM
in reply to: Fred D

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!!

Originally posted by Fred D

Good luck!

Thanks -- race didn't go well (well, didn't go like I'd hoped).  RR here -- appreciate comments if anyone has suggestions.



2014-11-27 4:35 PM
in reply to: ligersandtions

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!!
Originally posted by ligersandtions

Originally posted by Fred D

Good luck!

Thanks -- race didn't go well (well, didn't go like I'd hoped).  RR here -- appreciate comments if anyone has suggestions.





you don't have a lot of 5k in you race log. 3 I think.
You are a bit slower on this race than last year. By not much. Were conditions identical, was course identical, does Garmin give exact same numbers ?
You are a bit faster than another 5k you ran.


this year's time gives you a VDOT of 40, 1 higher than your previous HM. You may just have had an incredible race last year ?

Maybe some shorter, slightly faster track work would help you. Something like 800s.

It really really does not sound like a bad time, unless I am reading this wrong.
2014-11-27 5:01 PM
in reply to: marcag

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!!

The race last year was short -- my Garmin got 3.01 miles versus this year's 3.09 miles.  The pace was a PR, so I get that I should be somewhat satisfied, but with nearly 1400 miles between last year and this, I thought I'd be faster....make a tangible improvement.  

It was a little warmer this year -- 52F versus 39F, but not so much that overheating was an issue.  I just didn't have it.  I'm just not as strong as I want to be or think I should be.  This race points to my HM pace being pretty close to what it "should" be, which I was hoping I would improve on by January.  Running a fast 5k is not the goal....being able to not lose major places in a HIM run is the goal.  

2014-11-27 5:13 PM
in reply to: ligersandtions

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!!
Originally posted by ligersandtions

The race last year was short -- my Garmin got 3.01 miles versus this year's 3.09 miles.  The pace was a PR, so I get that I should be somewhat satisfied, but with nearly 1400 miles between last year and this, I thought I'd be faster....make a tangible improvement.  

It was a little warmer this year -- 52F versus 39F, but not so much that overheating was an issue.  I just didn't have it.  I'm just not as strong as I want to be or think I should be.  This race points to my HM pace being pretty close to what it "should" be, which I was hoping I would improve on by January.  Running a fast 5k is not the goal....being able to not lose major places in a HIM run is the goal.  




And I bet that you are and will be faster on the longer distance.

For me, had I wanted to run a 5k, I probably would have run some fast 400 or 800s a few weeks leading up to the race. Just to get the legs turn over at that pace. But you said it, the goal was not to run a fast 5km

2014-11-27 5:32 PM
in reply to: marcag

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!!

Nicole, I agree with Marc.  I've been training with Shane for 2 years now and during that time my HM time has plummeted (1:48 down to 1:33) but my 5k time has dropped maybe 30 seconds.  Of course with my focus being on the HIM distance, that makes sense.  He has me do lots of runs focused on threshold pace but little in the top end speed area.  Since my focus for next year is going to be on shorter distances, that has shifted and lately he's had me doing things like 200s at the track.

Like Marc, I bet you see a nice improvement at the longer distance when you next race.

2014-11-28 10:55 AM
in reply to: axteraa

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!!

Originally posted by axteraa

Nicole, I agree with Marc.  I've been training with Shane for 2 years now and during that time my HM time has plummeted (1:48 down to 1:33) but my 5k time has dropped maybe 30 seconds.  Of course with my focus being on the HIM distance, that makes sense.  He has me do lots of runs focused on threshold pace but little in the top end speed area.  Since my focus for next year is going to be on shorter distances, that has shifted and lately he's had me doing things like 200s at the track.

Like Marc, I bet you see a nice improvement at the longer distance when you next race.

Arend, how has your running ability for the various distances now and then matched up to particular VDOT curves?



2014-11-28 1:55 PM
in reply to: brigby1

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!!

Originally posted by brigby1

Originally posted by axteraa

Nicole, I agree with Marc.  I've been training with Shane for 2 years now and during that time my HM time has plummeted (1:48 down to 1:33) but my 5k time has dropped maybe 30 seconds.  Of course with my focus being on the HIM distance, that makes sense.  He has me do lots of runs focused on threshold pace but little in the top end speed area.  Since my focus for next year is going to be on shorter distances, that has shifted and lately he's had me doing things like 200s at the track.

Like Marc, I bet you see a nice improvement at the longer distance when you next race.

Arend, how has your running ability for the various distances now and then matched up to particular VDOT curves?

That's a good question.  I don't have exact specifics but when I started, my HM time (~1:48) was very slow relative to my 5k time (21 and change) according to VDOT charts.  Now they are much more in line at 20:30 and ~1:34

2014-11-28 6:41 PM
in reply to: axteraa

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!!

Originally posted by axteraa

Originally posted by brigby1

Originally posted by axteraa

Nicole, I agree with Marc.  I've been training with Shane for 2 years now and during that time my HM time has plummeted (1:48 down to 1:33) but my 5k time has dropped maybe 30 seconds.  Of course with my focus being on the HIM distance, that makes sense.  He has me do lots of runs focused on threshold pace but little in the top end speed area.  Since my focus for next year is going to be on shorter distances, that has shifted and lately he's had me doing things like 200s at the track.

Like Marc, I bet you see a nice improvement at the longer distance when you next race.

Arend, how has your running ability for the various distances now and then matched up to particular VDOT curves?

That's a good question.  I don't have exact specifics but when I started, my HM time (~1:48) was very slow relative to my 5k time (21 and change) according to VDOT charts.  Now they are much more in line at 20:30 and ~1:34

Plenty accurate for this discussion.

I'm wondering a number of things that go into the process of run development, but it might be best to put the thought process like this. Say the actual goal (or rather, the most heavily weighted one) would be several years down the road, at least 2 maybe more like 3. How would the running program differ from a more typical approach that has the goal race a few months away or later in the year? I don't know that it would be quite the same.

2014-11-29 12:29 AM
in reply to: ligersandtions

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!!

Originally posted by ligersandtions

The race last year was short -- my Garmin got 3.01 miles versus this year's 3.09 miles.  The pace was a PR, so I get that I should be somewhat satisfied, but with nearly 1400 miles between last year and this, I thought I'd be faster....make a tangible improvement.  

It was a little warmer this year -- 52F versus 39F, but not so much that overheating was an issue.  I just didn't have it.  I'm just not as strong as I want to be or think I should be.  This race points to my HM pace being pretty close to what it "should" be, which I was hoping I would improve on by January.  Running a fast 5k is not the goal....being able to not lose major places in a HIM run is the goal.  

Nicole, how do you feel about your workout schedule? I didn't look at the whole year, just about the past 2 months where you'd picked up after Tremblant. I'm seeing the bike volume is down, maybe 3 rides a week for about an hour at a time at most. Seeing a number of runs in there with 1 a week at a harder effort. At least attempted. I'm also seeing said harder effort is being attempted the day after attempting a VO2 workout on the bike every time. And it doesn't sound like you're always able to do the bike workout, almost surprising yourself on the times you do. Could be the difference in our power profiles, but doesn't seem like *that* hard of a workout to do. Haven't even tried looking at the swim workouts yet and wondering if you're getting enough spacing between the hard efforts? There seems to be a lot of negativity and disappointment surrounding these.

2014-11-29 5:22 AM
in reply to: brigby1

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!!
Originally posted by brigby1

Originally posted by ligersandtions

The race last year was short -- my Garmin got 3.01 miles versus this year's 3.09 miles.  The pace was a PR, so I get that I should be somewhat satisfied, but with nearly 1400 miles between last year and this, I thought I'd be faster....make a tangible improvement.  

It was a little warmer this year -- 52F versus 39F, but not so much that overheating was an issue.  I just didn't have it.  I'm just not as strong as I want to be or think I should be.  This race points to my HM pace being pretty close to what it "should" be, which I was hoping I would improve on by January.  Running a fast 5k is not the goal....being able to not lose major places in a HIM run is the goal.  

Nicole, how do you feel about your workout schedule? I didn't look at the whole year, just about the past 2 months where you'd picked up after Tremblant. I'm seeing the bike volume is down, maybe 3 rides a week for about an hour at a time at most. Seeing a number of runs in there with 1 a week at a harder effort. At least attempted. I'm also seeing said harder effort is being attempted the day after attempting a VO2 workout on the bike every time. And it doesn't sound like you're always able to do the bike workout, almost surprising yourself on the times you do. Could be the difference in our power profiles, but doesn't seem like *that* hard of a workout to do. Haven't even tried looking at the swim workouts yet and wondering if you're getting enough spacing between the hard efforts? There seems to be a lot of negativity and disappointment surrounding these.




you bring up an interesting point.

I took a look at my calendar, time in zones, recovery data and I believe I was just going through the motion of too many workouts, tired and not doing them optimally. I am paying more attention to this and think I am seeing a difference. On the swim for sure I am seeing a difference..
2014-11-29 10:08 AM
in reply to: brigby1

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!!

Originally posted by brigby1

Originally posted by ligersandtions

The race last year was short -- my Garmin got 3.01 miles versus this year's 3.09 miles.  The pace was a PR, so I get that I should be somewhat satisfied, but with nearly 1400 miles between last year and this, I thought I'd be faster....make a tangible improvement.  

It was a little warmer this year -- 52F versus 39F, but not so much that overheating was an issue.  I just didn't have it.  I'm just not as strong as I want to be or think I should be.  This race points to my HM pace being pretty close to what it "should" be, which I was hoping I would improve on by January.  Running a fast 5k is not the goal....being able to not lose major places in a HIM run is the goal.  

Nicole, how do you feel about your workout schedule? I didn't look at the whole year, just about the past 2 months where you'd picked up after Tremblant. I'm seeing the bike volume is down, maybe 3 rides a week for about an hour at a time at most. Seeing a number of runs in there with 1 a week at a harder effort. At least attempted. I'm also seeing said harder effort is being attempted the day after attempting a VO2 workout on the bike every time. And it doesn't sound like you're always able to do the bike workout, almost surprising yourself on the times you do. Could be the difference in our power profiles, but doesn't seem like *that* hard of a workout to do. Haven't even tried looking at the swim workouts yet and wondering if you're getting enough spacing between the hard efforts? There seems to be a lot of negativity and disappointment surrounding these.

I've been purposely ignoring/neglecting the bike.  My plan for the winter was to focus on the run, and try to maintain (or minimize losses) on the swim and  bike.  I had a fear that this would be a particularly bad idea because there was the possibility (which appear to be a reality at this point) that I would not improve (much) on the run, but would lose a lot on the bike.  My FTP on the bike is down....probably a significant amount.  The workouts I'm doing *shouldn't* be hard, but they are....I'm sure some of it is mental because I don't have a strong bike goal or anything in mind, but I also think I've lost a rather significant amount of fitness in the off season.

I'm trying a new approach to my running, which may prove to be a terrible idea, but I've gotta try something different.  Based on my 5k and HM times, McMillan calculator shows my easy runs should be done between 8:49 and 9:48 and my long run should be done between 8:50 and 10:09.  The faster end of these paces don't feel "easy", but I wasn't making much progress running where it did feel easy, so I'm starting to run at the faster end of the spectrum for my non-interval type runs.  I did 10 miles today and 6 yesterday, so I'll see if these help or make it so I can't hit my tempo or interval paces.  I have a 12k coming up toward the end of December, so I guess I'll use that as my gauge.   



2014-11-29 11:15 AM
in reply to: ligersandtions

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!!
Originally posted by ligersandtions

Originally posted by brigby1

Originally posted by ligersandtions

The race last year was short -- my Garmin got 3.01 miles versus this year's 3.09 miles.  The pace was a PR, so I get that I should be somewhat satisfied, but with nearly 1400 miles between last year and this, I thought I'd be faster....make a tangible improvement.  

It was a little warmer this year -- 52F versus 39F, but not so much that overheating was an issue.  I just didn't have it.  I'm just not as strong as I want to be or think I should be.  This race points to my HM pace being pretty close to what it "should" be, which I was hoping I would improve on by January.  Running a fast 5k is not the goal....being able to not lose major places in a HIM run is the goal.  

Nicole, how do you feel about your workout schedule? I didn't look at the whole year, just about the past 2 months where you'd picked up after Tremblant. I'm seeing the bike volume is down, maybe 3 rides a week for about an hour at a time at most. Seeing a number of runs in there with 1 a week at a harder effort. At least attempted. I'm also seeing said harder effort is being attempted the day after attempting a VO2 workout on the bike every time. And it doesn't sound like you're always able to do the bike workout, almost surprising yourself on the times you do. Could be the difference in our power profiles, but doesn't seem like *that* hard of a workout to do. Haven't even tried looking at the swim workouts yet and wondering if you're getting enough spacing between the hard efforts? There seems to be a lot of negativity and disappointment surrounding these.

I've been purposely ignoring/neglecting the bike.  My plan for the winter was to focus on the run, and try to maintain (or minimize losses) on the swim and  bike.  I had a fear that this would be a particularly bad idea because there was the possibility (which appear to be a reality at this point) that I would not improve (much) on the run, but would lose a lot on the bike.  My FTP on the bike is down....probably a significant amount.  The workouts I'm doing *shouldn't* be hard, but they are....I'm sure some of it is mental because I don't have a strong bike goal or anything in mind, but I also think I've lost a rather significant amount of fitness in the off season.

I'm trying a new approach to my running, which may prove to be a terrible idea, but I've gotta try something different.  Based on my 5k and HM times, McMillan calculator shows my easy runs should be done between 8:49 and 9:48 and my long run should be done between 8:50 and 10:09.  The faster end of these paces don't feel "easy", but I wasn't making much progress running where it did feel easy, so I'm starting to run at the faster end of the spectrum for my non-interval type runs.  I did 10 miles today and 6 yesterday, so I'll see if these help or make it so I can't hit my tempo or interval paces.  I have a 12k coming up toward the end of December, so I guess I'll use that as my gauge.   




How long have you been on this run schedule ?
How many bike VO2 sessions are you doing ?
How many hard swim sessions ?
Did you wear a HRM during the 5km or the HM ?
2014-11-29 11:39 AM
in reply to: marcag

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!!

I started this run schedule week of 9/22 (one full week off after Tremblant, one week of very easy running to get back into it, and then started the one tempo run / one threshold run per week after that).

I've been doing one VO2 bike session and one or two sweet spot sessions per week.  After reading about polarized training, I was thinking about doing more VO2 sessions and dropping out the SS work, but I haven't really started that yet and may not if my body can't handle it.  I do think I should probably reset my FTP so the workouts become more manageable. 

What do you consider a hard swim?  I don't really feel all that taxed after swimming.  Most of the masters coaches (we rotate between four coaches) are triathletes or were middle distance specialists when swimming in college.  We do a lot of 100 and 200 repeats and not a lot of sprinting.  For the most part, I'm swimming 3x a week, usually in the 8k - 10k range.

 

I did wear my HRM in the races:

Recent 5k (11/27) -- average HR 163, max 169

HM (10/26) -- average HR 159, max 168

Last year's 5k -- average HR 168, max 175

Not sure what it means that I couldn't get my HR up as high in the most recent 5k as I did last year.  I felt okay in terms of breathing and HR, but my legs just wouldn't turn over any faster.  I suspect that means my legs need to get used to running that fast, but not sure why I wasn't able to get my HR up.

2014-11-29 11:58 AM
in reply to: ligersandtions

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!!
Originally posted by ligersandtions

I started this run schedule week of 9/22 (one full week off after Tremblant, one week of very easy running to get back into it, and then started the one tempo run / one threshold run per week after that).

I've been doing one VO2 bike session and one or two sweet spot sessions per week.  After reading about polarized training, I was thinking about doing more VO2 sessions and dropping out the SS work, but I haven't really started that yet and may not if my body can't handle it.  I do think I should probably reset my FTP so the workouts become more manageable. 

What do you consider a hard swim?  I don't really feel all that taxed after swimming.  Most of the masters coaches (we rotate between four coaches) are triathletes or were middle distance specialists when swimming in college.  We do a lot of 100 and 200 repeats and not a lot of sprinting.  For the most part, I'm swimming 3x a week, usually in the 8k - 10k range.

 

I did wear my HRM in the races:

Recent 5k (11/27) -- average HR 163, max 169

HM (10/26) -- average HR 159, max 168

Last year's 5k -- average HR 168, max 175

Not sure what it means that I couldn't get my HR up as high in the most recent 5k as I did last year.  I felt okay in terms of breathing and HR, but my legs just wouldn't turn over any faster.  I suspect that means my legs need to get used to running that fast, but not sure why I wasn't able to get my HR up.




what pace are you doing your tempo runs and how long ?
same for your 5k pace runs. I think you do 1mile repeats at 5k pace ?

what is your pace/HR when you do your 'easy runs' ?

what was you average HR when you did the 20' FTP tests ?

Since you have been doing this program 9 weeks now you should think about mixing it up.

2014-11-29 2:36 PM
in reply to: marcag

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!!

Tempo runs are at an 8:10 pace and have built up to 5 miles so far.  Starting in a couple weeks, the tempo duration will be longer than I can do on a weeknight run, so it will be incorporated into the long run.

5k intervals were being done at a 7:30 pace (and now knowing that my 5k pace is more like 7:45, I'll be modifying as needed) and were up to 4x5' on 3' recovery.  I attempted a 2x10' run, but my stomach shut down on me, so I ended up bagging that run.  

Easy runs were typically in the 9:30 - 9:45 range and HR is typically in the low- to mid-140's.  

The last 20' test I did (January, 2014), my average HR was 170 with a max of 176.

 

With regards to mixing up the run training, do you have any suggestions?  On my current schedule, the next couple weeks have intervals at 10k pace instead of 5k, as I have a 12k race coming up, but the other stuff is similar to what it's been. 

2014-11-29 5:59 PM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!!
Originally posted by ligersandtions

Tempo runs are at an 8:10 pace and have built up to 5 miles so far.  Starting in a couple weeks, the tempo duration will be longer than I can do on a weeknight run, so it will be incorporated into the long run.

5k intervals were being done at a 7:30 pace (and now knowing that my 5k pace is more like 7:45, I'll be modifying as needed) and were up to 4x5' on 3' recovery.  I attempted a 2x10' run, but my stomach shut down on me, so I ended up bagging that run.  

Easy runs were typically in the 9:30 - 9:45 range and HR is typically in the low- to mid-140's.  

The last 20' test I did (January, 2014), my average HR was 170 with a max of 176.

 

With regards to mixing up the run training, do you have any suggestions?  On my current schedule, the next couple weeks have intervals at 10k pace instead of 5k, as I have a 12k race coming up, but the other stuff is similar to what it's been. 





Just thinking out loud

You are doing a Vo2 bike session. And a few sweet spot. If in fact your FTP has dropped you are probably doing one or two threshold bike sessions not sweet spot.
Your tempo is probably closer to threshold than tempo.
Your "easy" is probably at the edge of Z3
+ your swimming

I suspect you are doing a lot in Z3/Z4/Z5.

If one out of 5 workouts is a struggle, that's ok.
If one out of 5 is a good/great workout, something is wrong

Could it be you are overcooking yourself worrying about keeping your bike fitness while improving your run ?


PS : Your max HR in a 5km being less than the average of your bike 20min test is interesting :-)

Edited by marcag 2014-11-29 6:24 PM


2014-11-29 8:16 PM
in reply to: marcag

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!!

Been wondering much the same as Marc has. Also curious about the running plan. What were you following again? Was it a run plan put into tri training or a more run focused section of a whole tri plan? If that makes any sense.

I'm not as big on run pacing that just says "5k" or "10K effort". The durations of the races vary quite a bit so different people will have different workouts even if they are time based. I'm also looking at the time it takes you to finish the 5k. It's hard, but when putting that effort into a workout, specifically what is it stressing? If this were on the bike it would probably translate to 103-106% or so. Someone slower would be lower than that and closer to threshold. Someone faster like the 2 guys at my recent race who ran 14:50 would be getting close to what would be a VO2 pace. I know people can make gains like this, but I've had better luck stressing more closely to one of the physiological markers like near VO2 max or threshold.

Anyway, I have seen where people do make notable gains at times using such methods so it does work, and a considerably larger issue is the workout execution/scheduling. I don't that you're really setting yourself up to have some good runs. If running is your priority then the quality running you are doing should get first priority towards being more rested and ready to hit them well. The Thursday bike sessions don't seem to be going well and interfering. Say you do get that figured out and get through them better, they're still not really giving the run top priority and setting up for consistently mediocre harder run sessions at best.

The low HR on the run is interesting. I'm wondering if you have made more gains than what showed, but need to work on being able to push hard on the run again to see it. I've had to deal with that this year as well due to lack of run training until the past couple months. In the races my bike HR would be as high and more often higher than the run, even though the run would burn more. There was a large disparity in the training for each. I've been trying to work on this in the run intervals. Starting close to where I should be, but a little under. Then going slightly faster each one. Often times these are on a treadmill so I'll just go .1 or so faster the next interval, or up it part way through the interval. Slowly I've seen my run improving and also seen my ability to push the harder efforts coming back. The recent race had HR down a little from past races, but higher than I've been able to push more recently.

2014-11-29 9:55 PM
in reply to: brigby1

Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!!
Nicole...I ran a lot in prep for my IM last year. Probably way too much given everything else I was doing, and at the end of a long season. Racing starts early in Hawaii, so by October, I was toast. I had a lot better results during my run focus towards the end of 2012 where I was doing the 100/100 challenge....but not swimming or biking much at all.You just came off a long season with great results. Immediately moving into a run focus is asking a lot from your body...especially if you are still swimming and biking.Just my 2 cents.
2014-11-30 7:00 AM
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2014-11-30 7:05 AM
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date : September 15, 2011
comments : 0
Don't be scared for the swim! Gain more confidence for your open water swims with these tips
 
date : September 25, 2007
author : Tri Swim Coach
comments : 0
Discussion on sinking hips, balance drills, open water freak-out, best breathing for open water swimming and head position.