General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Clips worth it over cycling with tennis shoes? Worth it for Olympic distance? Rss Feed  
Moderators: jmk-brooklyn, Ron Reply
Show Per page
 
 
of 3
 
 
2014-11-03 10:29 PM
in reply to: dfroelich

User image

Coach
8777
500020001000500100100252525
Stairway to Seven
Subject: RE: Clips worth it over cycling with tennis shoes? Worth it for Olympic distance?
Originally posted by dfroelich

  • ..If he did the second treatment in running shoes and got the same result, then we would have something real to discuss.


  • Or nothing...


    2014-11-04 12:04 PM
    in reply to: AdventureBear

    User image

    Regular
    500
    500
    Portland, Oregon
    Subject: RE: Clips worth it over cycling with tennis shoes? Worth it for Olympic distance?
    Originally posted by AdventureBear

    Originally posted by Jason N

    Originally posted by Jason N

    Originally posted by sirdizzy Yes, less loss of power and you get the up stroke and downstroke it will add 1-2 mph average on your biking.

    Clipped in shoes will help in comfort, but I'd like to know where you came up with the notion that you gain power on the upstroke and that gained power will result in 1-2 mph.  I'd say somewhere closer to 0.1-0.2 mph in gained speed if at all.  More so if you're riding a course that requires out of the saddle accelerations or climbs so steep that your cadence significantly drops and exposes the dead spots in your stroke.  

    If you don't believe me, switch back to platforms and report back if your speed drops significantly.  I've done many short errands where I don't want to put on bike shoes and just ride with my flip flops over the pedals.  Again, other than comfort and worrying about my foot slipping off (less likely with platforms and shoes), I don't notice much difference in speed at all. 

    I know a girl who won the women's division of a time trial in her walking shoes because she forgot her bike shoes at home.  She's fast, but not 1-2 mph faster than the competition to make up for not having bike shoes.

    ETA: OP, all that said, it's still worth it.  But more about comfort and simplicity than anything else.

    Jackmott just posted a link in ST of this video from GCN that did a little n=1 experiment with clipless vs flat pedals with the intention of proving that clipless is more efficient.  The results...not so much.

    Just thought I'd update this thread as it's a topic that seems to come up every few months among beginners and their experiences with clipless.  Again, I would highly recommend them for comfort and control, but not to expect significant speed gains.

     

     




    Can someone tell me if there is anything wrong with my logic in which I reached the opposite conclusion as the GCN physiologist did?

    (reposted from the other thread)

    Let's just assume that those numbers are correct that Simon pedaled with his best skill in each test and didn't alter his effort. I have a completley different conclusion.

    With clipless pedals more muscles are involved in pedaling since the "pulling" muscles CAN take part. More muscles = more contribution to do the same work, which means less work per muscle fiber, but a higher total oxygen consumption. In addition, he did this at a lower perceived effort and a lower HR.

    Take away the clipless, fewer muscles can take part, so less blood flow is needed hence a lower Vo2 max. the muscles need to do more work, hence a higher HR to get the same total work done.

    AGain this is making a lot of assumptions, but this is totally misleading. It's the wrong thing to study anyway


    which means less work per muscle fiber, but a higher total oxygen consumption

    Yeah...you admitted that your hypothesis here is making a lot of assumptions, and this is the big one. It seems logical to me, but needs independent testing. If proved otherwise, then we can safely fall back on: n=1, within the margin of error, the two trials were not truly independent...etc.

    so less blood flow is needed hence a lower Vo2 max

    less VO2 was observed, but VO2 max was not touched in either test...sorry for picking nits.

    I like your hypothesis. Seems like a great explanation for the test! On ST, someone proposed having everyone do 5 minute all out power tests with platform and clipless and then doing a paired T-test. That would be cool, but there would be several variables that would muddle whatever observed difference back into statistical insignificance.
    2014-11-04 12:12 PM
    in reply to: AdventureBear

    User image

    Regular
    500
    500
    Portland, Oregon
    Subject: RE: Clips worth it over cycling with tennis shoes? Worth it for Olympic distance?
    Originally posted by AdventureBear

    Originally posted by dfroelich

  • ..If he did the second treatment in running shoes and got the same result, then we would have something real to discuss.


  • Or nothing...

    Indeed. This GCN video kinda reminds me of mythbusters. It is great for sparking interest, but the experimental design is so far from ever being able to produce workable data.
    2014-11-04 12:24 PM
    in reply to: dfroelich

    User image

    Subject: RE: Clips worth it over cycling with tennis shoes? Worth it for Olympic distance?

    Originally posted by dfroelichless VO2 was observed, but VO2 max was not touched in either test.

    Correct.  It was not a test of VO2 max.  It was a test of oxygen consumption.  The platform pedals (or a system that doesn't allow you to pull up) required slightly less oxygen to do the same task.  Hence it "could be" an indicator that not pulling up is just as efficient or more efficient (likely need more data) than pulling up.  

    Again, this test is very much n=1.  It's just interesting that they did the test with the objective of proving a point, and at best, got no evidence to support their point...and at worst, got a very small amount of evidence to support the opposite of their point.

    2014-11-04 12:48 PM
    in reply to: Tyclark25@gmail.com

    User image

    Champion
    11898
    500050001000500100100100252525
    Philly 'burbs
    Subject: RE: Clips worth it over cycling with tennis shoes? Worth it for Olympic distance?

    Originally posted by Tyclark25@gmail.com are the clips and shoes worth it?

     

    to me, yes

    2014-11-05 8:16 AM
    in reply to: Jason N


    20

    Subject: RE: Clips worth it over cycling with tennis shoes? Worth it for Olympic distance?
    Originally posted by Jason N

    Originally posted by sirdizzy Yes, less loss of power and you get the up stroke and downstroke it will add 1-2 mph average on your biking.

    Clipped in shoes will help in comfort, but I'd like to know where you came up with the notion that you gain power on the upstroke and that gained power will result in 1-2 mph.  I'd say somewhere closer to 0.1-0.2 mph in gained speed if at all.  More so if you're riding a course that requires out of the saddle accelerations or climbs so steep that your cadence significantly drops and exposes the dead spots in your stroke.  

    If you don't believe me, switch back to platforms and report back if your speed drops significantly.  I've done many short errands where I don't want to put on bike shoes and just ride with my flip flops over the pedals.  Again, other than comfort and worrying about my foot slipping off (less likely with platforms and shoes), I don't notice much difference in speed at all. 

    I know a girl who won the women's division of a time trial in her walking shoes because she forgot her bike shoes at home.  She's fast, but not 1-2 mph faster than the competition to make up for not having bike shoes.

    ETA: OP, all that said, it's still worth it.  But more about comfort and simplicity than anything else.




    There really isn't the power gain for steady state riding that people think there is with clipless pedals. GCN tested it just last week: http://youtu.be/CNedIJBZpgMbut that being said there are definitely benefits for both fit and other times on the bike when you can pull up on the pedals (sprinting or climbing)


    New Thread
    General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Clips worth it over cycling with tennis shoes? Worth it for Olympic distance? Rss Feed  
    Show Per page
     
     
    of 3