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2014-07-09 11:21 PM
in reply to: brigby1

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Subject: RE: Taking workout with you on the bike
Originally posted by brigby1

On the 8 x 1'@150% (and some of the other workouts about this) *I* get why we should work on these other areas above threshold, but still trying to understand about why it would be necessary to build it that much relative to FTP. Higher is better, but how much higher before gains become limited and time would be better spent looking more directly at FTP (or something else)? The 8 x 1' I saw only had 1' recovery time. I can't do 150% on that. With several minutes between each instead of just 1 min, however, it looks much more possible, though still very hard.




I've seen the blocked 30"/30" workouts before and the look rather interesting, but haven't found enough guidelines towards how to make them work. Their flexibility was remarked on, but to someone not as familiar with them that same flexibility appears as being vague. Not too different from someone like the OP looking at his workout. Where should the highs come in around and where should the lows be? Both would seem to have some sort of range, but numbers were thrown around without much reason why. Or rather what they were based on.

And congrats to the TT'er!




Agree 150% on 1' rest is pretty stiff!! I'd start myself out as 1' @ 150% with 3-5' rest and progress from there. When I can hold the 150% on 1', my FTP has probabaly gone up and I ought to retest, or it may be apparent from other ride or race data. Point taken.

30/30 workouts...google Billat's 30/30 and read some of her original papers on Vo2 work.

here's my reasoning on the set I described before. She was up to 4 x 8' on 2' rest as a threshold set based on power & HR. We did this for about 4 weeks in a row and she had steady progress in terms of same power, less effort & same power lower HR. Her time trial "nemesis" (a guy nearly the exact same speed as her) lost to her by .01 second in their last local time trial, so I jokingly said to take him with her on her next 4 x8' but trade pulls ever 30 seconds.

so assuming she's still in Zone 4 for the set but pulling harder for the 30', it's starting to approach a 30/30 set, only higher recovery watts as well.

No scientific studies but an N of 1 for 2nd place overall, 1st place AG in long course nationals a few weeks ago tells me it doesn't hurt. [Shameless coach brag]


2014-07-10 6:14 AM
in reply to: brigby1

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Subject: RE: Taking workout with you on the bike
Originally posted by brigby1
The 8 x 1' I saw only had 1' recovery time. I can't do 150% on that. With several minutes between each instead of just 1 min, however, it looks much more possible, though still very hard.


Ben, put that workout in Skiba's W' model. If you have a sizeable AWC you could do 8 at 3'.

A person with the same AWC would fail at 4 with 1' rest.

I think you should try :-)

I did the model at 70% during recovery. The person could have lasted longer had they dropped their recovery.





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2014-07-10 8:08 AM
in reply to: marcag

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Subject: RE: Taking workout with you on the bike

Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by brigby1 The 8 x 1' I saw only had 1' recovery time. I can't do 150% on that. With several minutes between each instead of just 1 min, however, it looks much more possible, though still very hard.
Ben, put that workout in Skiba's W' model. If you have a sizeable AWC you could do 8 at 3'. A person with the same AWC would fail at 4 with 1' rest. I think you should try :-) I did the model at 70% during recovery. The person could have lasted longer had they dropped their recovery.

I'll just save that idea for later.

2014-07-10 8:25 AM
in reply to: AdventureBear

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Subject: RE: Taking workout with you on the bike

Originally posted by AdventureBear  Agree 150% on 1' rest is pretty stiff!! I'd start myself out as 1' @ 150% with 3-5' rest and progress from there. When I can hold the 150% on 1', my FTP has probabaly gone up and I ought to retest, or it may be apparent from other ride or race data. Point taken. 30/30 workouts...google Billat's 30/30 and read some of her original papers on Vo2 work. here's my reasoning on the set I described before. She was up to 4 x 8' on 2' rest as a threshold set based on power & HR. We did this for about 4 weeks in a row and she had steady progress in terms of same power, less effort & same power lower HR. Her time trial "nemesis" (a guy nearly the exact same speed as her) lost to her by .01 second in their last local time trial, so I jokingly said to take him with her on her next 4 x8' but trade pulls ever 30 seconds. so assuming she's still in Zone 4 for the set but pulling harder for the 30', it's starting to approach a 30/30 set, only higher recovery watts as well. No scientific studies but an N of 1 for 2nd place overall, 1st place AG in long course nationals a few weeks ago tells me it doesn't hurt. [Shameless coach brag]

I've seen some of the Billat work before, so when putting that together with what you've done it sounds like the lower 30" are at something like 90-100%, but trying to work out the higher one. Some of that comes from the intervals being so short and the "recovery" isn't anywhere near what one would typically think of. Trying to figure out how to weigh the importance of the overall average of the interval (8' in your example) vs how hard the high 30" parts were done. What is factored in towards determining if the execution was "successful"? It's intriguing, but have tended to stick with the more constant effort ones as that's easy to see. It's all in the hard sections for those.

2014-07-10 8:41 AM
in reply to: Danno77

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Subject: RE: Taking workout with you on the bike

Originally posted by Danno77 Also, FWIW (with regards to the several posts about the 20' set at z3/z4) the ACTUAL suggestion was "high z3- low z4" which I actually did, but didn't type initially, because I didn't know that part would be scrutinized!

Make that mistake again and you will have to execute the 8 x 1' being discussed.

The workout suggested for today was a threshold workout that had some 10" all outs and some 30" ones with some other stuff mixed in. I tried to enter it into garmin connect and the website was glitchy two times, and then my tablet reset and I said "forget it" and then went and did a ride with some short hard (for me) hills.

Things like that are why I don't really like programming into a Garmin. Can be troublesome even for someone perfectly capable of it. Writing in lots of small ones can take as much time as the workout itself! Also, the programming allows for no flexibility as far as I know. At least I don't know how to do that when already started. Sometimes I need more warm-up than I thought.

I can guess on the 10" and 30" second ones, and that would be that they are to help open things up for the main workout. Different method, but similar idea to the early 5' build to Z4 from your original workout. And that's going with the idea that the main focus of the workout being threshold work, as said. Just some more rationalization on understanding what's going on. The exact number of those isn't so important as it is to be ready to hit the main set. I use Sufferfest vids a lot on the trainer for hard work, and will rewind a bit if I'm not firing as well as I'd like by the end of the warm-up. So in yours, I might do a couple extra of the 10" or 30" efforts to make sure things are going well. So while some of the discussion is getting away from your original question of having notes along on the bike, hopefully it's increasing the understanding so that notes are not needed so much!

2014-07-10 12:23 PM
in reply to: brigby1

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Subject: RE: Taking workout with you on the bike
Originally posted by brigby1
What is factored in towards determining if the execution was "successful"? It's intriguing, but have tended to stick with the more constant effort ones as that's easy to see. It's all in the hard sections for those.




Completing all 4 with about the same average power and keeping rest short is pretty much it for those two as far as measure of success. I know then and I know they don't dog anything. They are the sort that need parameters to hold them back. The original version of 8' is to go as hard as possible for 4 x8' keeping them all the same average. It's a self correcting workout over time. it's going to be between Z4 & Z5 by definition (z4 1 hr max, Z5 5 min max...it's really quite a wide range). Training effect will be there unless they've been doing the same thing for 8-12 weeks with no other variation.

I know when one pulls they are going to try and drop the other but know they ahve to complete 8' and stay together, it lifts the over all stress of the workout.

There's a local elite cyclist / triathlete here in Pittsburgh that I got to know when I first started coaching & racing bikes. One of his staple workouts at the track was 1 hour at threshold with 30 second sprints every XXX minutes. I don't remember the minutes between sprints was. I just remember beeing floored that someone could do "in theory" their max effort (1 hour zone 4) and then add training stress within that workout. (sprinting within, with no recovery) He had a monster engine, and athletes like that need ongoing ways to keep raising training stress. 5 x 3' or 8 x 1' is too easy.

Neither one of these athletes I've been talking about who are sharing the 4 x 8' has a power meter, only HR strap. so I cant tell you what the %ages are, but I can tell you their HR average is over threshold the whole time except between the 8' efforts.

If I were to translate t his for an athlete using power data, I'd suggest they start off with something like 105%/95% as the 2 power targets for 5 or 6' then recover and as time went on I'd raise the "on" keeping the "recovery" high. this keeps the overall workout self limiting and in the threshold range, as opposed to lowering the recovery %age while the "on" %age goes up as well...that will push it more into Vo2 max territory




2014-07-10 12:25 PM
in reply to: AdventureBear

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Subject: RE: Taking workout with you on the bike
Originally posted by AdventureBear

Originally posted by brigby1
What is factored in towards determining if the execution was "successful"? It's intriguing, but have tended to stick with the more constant effort ones as that's easy to see. It's all in the hard sections for those.




Completing all 4 with about the same average power and keeping rest short is pretty much it for those two as far as measure of success. I know then and I know they don't dog anything. They are the sort that need parameters to hold them back. The original version of 8' is to go as hard as possible for 4 x8' keeping them all the same average. It's a self correcting workout over time. it's going to be between Z4 & Z5 by definition (z4 1 hr max, Z5 5 min max...it's really quite a wide range). Training effect will be there unless they've been doing the same thing for 8-12 weeks with no other variation.

I know when one pulls they are going to try and drop the other but know they ahve to complete 8' and stay together, it lifts the over all stress of the workout.

There's a local elite cyclist / triathlete here in Pittsburgh that I got to know when I first started coaching & racing bikes. One of his staple workouts at the track was 1 hour at threshold with 30 second sprints every XXX minutes. I don't remember the minutes between sprints was. I just remember beeing floored that someone could do "in theory" their max effort (1 hour zone 4) and then add training stress within that workout. (sprinting within, with no recovery) He had a monster engine, and athletes like that need ongoing ways to keep raising training stress. 5 x 3' or 8 x 1' is too easy.

Neither one of these athletes I've been talking about who are sharing the 4 x 8' has a power meter, only HR strap. so I cant tell you what the %ages are, but I can tell you their HR average is over threshold the whole time except between the 8' efforts.

If I were to translate t his for an athlete using power data, I'd suggest they start off with something like 105%/95% as the 2 power targets for 5 or 6' then recover and as time went on I'd raise the "on" keeping the "recovery" high. this keeps the overall workout self limiting and in the threshold range, as opposed to lowering the recovery %age while the "on" %age goes up as well...that will push it more into Vo2 max territory


^^^ Rereading this is basically an Over/Under workout. So there you go.


2014-07-10 1:10 PM
in reply to: AdventureBear

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Northern IL
Subject: RE: Taking workout with you on the bike

Originally posted by AdventureBear Completing all 4 with about the same average power and keeping rest short is pretty much it for those two as far as measure of success. I know then and I know they don't dog anything. They are the sort that need parameters to hold them back. The original version of 8' is to go as hard as possible for 4 x8' keeping them all the same average. It's a self correcting workout over time. it's going to be between Z4 & Z5 by definition (z4 1 hr max, Z5 5 min max...it's really quite a wide range). Training effect will be there unless they've been doing the same thing for 8-12 weeks with no other variation.

I know when one pulls they are going to try and drop the other but know they ahve to complete 8' and stay together, it lifts the over all stress of the workout.

There's a local elite cyclist / triathlete here in Pittsburgh that I got to know when I first started coaching & racing bikes. One of his staple workouts at the track was 1 hour at threshold with 30 second sprints every XXX minutes. I don't remember the minutes between sprints was. I just remember beeing floored that someone could do "in theory" their max effort (1 hour zone 4) and then add training stress within that workout. (sprinting within, with no recovery) He had a monster engine, and athletes like that need ongoing ways to keep raising training stress. 5 x 3' or 8 x 1' is too easy.

Neither one of these athletes I've been talking about who are sharing the 4 x 8' has a power meter, only HR strap. so I cant tell you what the %ages are, but I can tell you their HR average is over threshold the whole time except between the 8' efforts.

If I were to translate t his for an athlete using power data, I'd suggest they start off with something like 105%/95% as the 2 power targets for 5 or 6' then recover and as time went on I'd raise the "on" keeping the "recovery" high. this keeps the overall workout self limiting and in the threshold range, as opposed to lowering the recovery %age while the "on" %age goes up as well...that will push it more into Vo2 max territory

^^^ Rereading this is basically an Over/Under workout. So there you go.

Ok, that helps. Think I get it now with the over/under idea and the flexibility part does include moving it between threshold and VO2 focus. Depends on the goal.

That hour workout sounds like Bill Black's Hour of Power? Haven't tried it yet, but holding onto it. Seen some variations, but generally 1 hr with a baseline lower in the threshold zone (90% or so) and then sprints or 10-30" in length at something like 120-150% every 3-5'.

I've also heard the odd case of some people being able to do some sprints out of FTP work and get an average slightly better that way than if they rode steady. What I know of have had very short term power that is much more advanced than their longer term. Maybe before I actually trained endurance, but not now!

2014-07-10 2:43 PM
in reply to: brigby1

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Subject: RE: Taking workout with you on the bike
yeah it does sound similar, but HOP has a lower recovery typically. They are all variations of :

Duration of main interval
Frequency of bursts
intensity of bursts
length of recovery
intensity of recovery

Varying intensity gives other muscle fibers brief rest so sometimes you can resume steady endurance after standing up and sprinting and feel better than if you hadn't.

Studies will tend to look at just one combination of all of the above variables, like the ones from McMaster's university, Tabatas, etc...but all of them almost universally show better improvements in time to fatigue and power than steady state training alone.

There just aren't enough studies to cover all the possibilities so anecdotal supplemental fill in evidence IMO is fine for these things. In teh end each athlete is an N of 1, and as long as they continue to make progress there's no harm ...

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