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2014-07-10 3:29 PM

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Subject: Tour de France Sprint Finish
Why after the lead group finished the days stage does the remaining riders/peloton casually ride to the finish line when the clock is still running.... its that just putting more time on to there GC time?


2014-07-10 3:30 PM
in reply to: husse23

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Subject: RE: Tour de France Sprint Finish
Only about 10 guys are really contending for GC, the rest of the riders have other jobs to do and couldn't care less where they finish on GC.
2014-07-10 3:31 PM
in reply to: husse23

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Subject: RE: Tour de France Sprint Finish
Generally the sprinters are no where near in the GC, and if they are, they won't get over the mountains. So they are no real concern to them.
2014-07-10 3:41 PM
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Subject: RE: Tour de France Sprint Finish

As already mentioned, not everyone is competing for the GC, so if they're not in the running for the stage win, they don't care how much time they lose so long as it is within the cutoff time.

Another thing to note is that all riders finishing in the same bunch get the same time as the first person in their bunch that crosses the line.  So if you see a big pack of 80 riders coming to the line, the top 10 guys might be sprinting for the stage win, but the other 70 guys are only doing what is necessary to stay in that "group" so they get the same time.  Basically, it just means that there can't be a clear gap over one second within the group.  At the speeds they are going...that's like 5+ bike lengths.  So it's possible that the winner of a sprint stage may finish 12 seconds (real time) ahead of the last person in their group...but everyone in the group gets the same finishing time as the winner.  The reason they do this is because they don't want 80+ people all sprinting for the line.  It would cause major crashes.  The people in the group know that only a handful of guys are contending for the win, so they won't risk crashing when they know they'll get the same time.

The common theme in bike racing is that there are only 5 real places for races that have a sprint finish.  1st, 2nd, 3rd, in the main pack, and off the back.  Nobody cares if you finish 8th or 120th if both riders are in the main pack.

ETA: Another thing to consider is that in a stage race, some riders will purposely get dropped and lose time in the general classification.  The reason they do this is because it no longer makes them a GC threat going forward, and they will more likely be allowed to get into the breakaway on subsequent stages.  So if you get dropped, you may as well get dropped by 10 minutes so that you are clearly not a threat...and as a bonus you save your legs for the stage you really want to go all out on.



Edited by Jason N 2014-07-10 3:44 PM
2014-07-10 3:45 PM
in reply to: Jason N

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Subject: RE: Tour de France Sprint Finish

Originally posted by Jason N

As already mentioned, not everyone is competing for the GC, so if they're not in the running for the stage win, they don't care how much time they lose so long as it is within the cutoff time.

Another thing to note is that all riders finishing in the same bunch get the same time as the first person in their bunch that crosses the line.  So if you see a big pack of 80 riders coming to the line, the top 10 guys might be sprinting for the stage win, but the other 70 guys are only doing what is necessary to stay in that "group" so they get the same time.  Basically, it just means that there can't be a clear gap over one second within the group.  At the speeds they are going...that's like 5+ bike lengths.  So it's possible that the winner of a sprint stage may finish 12 seconds (real time) ahead of the last person in their group...but everyone in the group gets the same finishing time as the winner.  The reason they do this is because they don't want 80+ people all sprinting for the line.  It would cause major crashes.  The people in the group know that only a handful of guys are contending for the win, so they won't risk crashing when they know they'll get the same time.

The common theme in bike racing is that there are only 5 real places for races that have a sprint finish.  1st, 2nd, 3rd, in the main pack, and off the back.  Nobody cares if you finish 8th or 120th if both riders are in the main pack.

ETA: Another thing to consider is that in a stage race, some riders will purposely get dropped and lose time in the general classification.  The reason they do this is because it no longer makes them a GC threat going forward, and they will more likely be allowed to get into the breakaway on subsequent stages.  So if you get dropped, you may as well get dropped by 10 minutes so that you are clearly not a threat...and as a bonus you save your legs for the stage you really want to go all out on.

I've been on BT for 4 years now and I just learned more about cycling in this post than I have in 100s of others. 

Thanks Jason.

 

2014-07-10 3:56 PM
in reply to: husse23

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Subject: RE: Tour de France Sprint Finish
You have three types of riders… Overall (GC) where every second counts, so you want to stay in the lead group, or at least in the same group as the rest of the GC contenders. Points, where you try to take as many sprint points as possible (you get the most points at the finish of the flat stages, but there's also intermediate sprints where you can pick up points). And finally, riders trying to win a stage.

If you're riding for a stage win and you have no interest in the overall placement, if you're second place or 120th place doesn't make any difference what so ever, so you sit up and save the energy for another day. (if you're in this category of a rider, then you actually want to lose a bit of time, so get more leeway in breakaways).

Sprint point riders (which interestingly are usually not the purest of sprinters since they need to get over the mountains, take intermediate points and place well enough each day) will ride to the finish, but since you only get points for the first few riders (depending on the stage type, usually goes 15 or so deep) and if you're outside of that, no reason to spend energy.

GC (and overall placement) riders will fight the hardest each day as they're all interested in time.


2014-07-10 4:11 PM
in reply to: audiojan

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Subject: RE: Tour de France Sprint Finish

There is a 4th type of rider as well.  The domestique.  This is basically a rider who is riding for someone else on the team to help their success.  This could be guys helping a general classification contender or a points racer.  Basically they will get no glory for themselves and will gut themselves before the finish line to ensure their teammate is in proper position when the finish line approaches.  They are extremely necessary and I would say the majority of the field is made up of domestiques.  

Cycling is very much a team sport at the higher and highest levels.  If every bike racer was only looking out for themselves you would have chaos.

2014-07-10 4:16 PM
in reply to: Jason N


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Subject: RE: Tour de France Sprint Finish
Originally posted by Jason N

The common theme in bike racing is that there are only 5 real places for races that have a sprint finish.  1st, 2nd, 3rd, in the main pack, and off the back.  Nobody cares if you finish 8th or 120th if both riders are in the main pack.




At the Pro Tour level, they care about more than the first 5 spots. First, the points (green jersey) competition awards points 15 spots deep for each stage. Second, riders accumulate points throughout the course of the year based on how they finish at races. Each team needs 'x' amount of points to maintain their team's status in the pro tour. The more points a rider has, the more valuable he is to a team and the better his contract is going to be. When you watch races where a 5 man break stays away. . . when that first chase group gets to the line, I guarantee you they are sprinting for sixth. Its especially important for the second tier teams who may be looking to move up to the pro tour level the next year. They need all the points they can get.

2014-07-10 5:11 PM
in reply to: Jason N

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Subject: RE: Tour de France Sprint Finish
Originally posted by Jason N

There is a 4th type of rider as well.  The domestique.  This is basically a rider who is riding for someone else on the team to help their success.  This could be guys helping a general classification contender or a points racer.  Basically they will get no glory for themselves and will gut themselves before the finish line to ensure their teammate is in proper position when the finish line approaches.  They are extremely necessary and I would say the majority of the field is made up of domestiques.  

Cycling is very much a team sport at the higher and highest levels.  If every bike racer was only looking out for themselves you would have chaos.




You're right…. I excluded the domestique since they simple could careless when they cross the finish line (as long as they achieve their objective/role for the day and are within the time limit).
2014-07-10 6:06 PM
in reply to: husse23

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Subject: RE: Tour de France Sprint Finish
The first week of the tour is all about the Points Classification (Green Jersey). Historically, the winner of this classification is not a contender in the General Classification (Yellow Jersey) because they fade heavily once the Tour hits the mountains. Last year's Green Jersey winner and this year's points leader, Peter Sagan, finished 57th in the GC over 52 minutes behind the leader. One of the top Sprinters in the 1990s Mario Cipollini (AKA Super Mario) who won four stages in 1999 used to drop out of the race once the Tour hit the mountains.

Over the first week to ten days the main contenders for the GC will be content in finishing in the main pack and hope to enter week two mostly healthy. Unfortunately this did not work out for last year's winner, Chris Froome, who had to drop out after crashing for the second day in a row yesterday. The race for the GC should begin on Saturday when the Tour enters the mountains.
2014-07-10 6:36 PM
in reply to: rick4657

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Subject: RE: Tour de France Sprint Finish

Originally posted by rick4657 The first week of the tour is all about the Points Classification (Green Jersey). Historically, the winner of this classification is not a contender in the General Classification (Yellow Jersey) because they fade heavily once the Tour hits the mountains. Last year's Green Jersey winner and this year's points leader, Peter Sagan, finished 57th in the GC over 52 minutes behind the leader. One of the top Sprinters in the 1990s Mario Cipollini (AKA Super Mario) who won four stages in 1999 used to drop out of the race once the Tour hit the mountains.

With Sagan in the mix these days (along with more emphasis on intermediate sprint points), the green jersey is less about actual sprint stages and more about being consistent.  Sagan regularly scoops up points on the medium and mountain stages when the other sprinters are off the back.  Therefore, the first week of the tour isn't all about the green jersey persay, it's a showcase of the sprinters.  Sagan has proven that you don't need to be the fastest sprinter (or even win a stage) to win the points classification.

 



2014-07-10 9:58 PM
in reply to: Jason N

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Subject: RE: Tour de France Sprint Finish
He can also time trial better than most sprinters as well. Got to stand right next to him at the Tour of Alberta, the guy is a stud.
2014-07-11 11:39 AM
in reply to: simpsonbo

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Subject: RE: Tour de France Sprint Finish

 

Question for you experts...

What is the point of winning a stage? I can see racing for one of the jerseys or some of the money at the intermediate sprints and such, but what is the benefit to winning a stage?

Reason I ask is Marcell Kittel. His team killed themselves to get him those stage wins, he is currently 38 minutes off the yellow jersey pace even with 3 stage wins so obviously not a GC contender whatsoever. So one would assume he is a dedicated sprinter and thus would be interested in the green jersey. But then yesterday he has a chance for 20 points at the intermediate sprint and he just cruises along, no effort at all. So he is not challenging Sagan for the jersey and not a GC contender, what is his purpose other than stage wins? What do stage wins do for the rider or team?

2014-07-11 11:58 AM
in reply to: Aarondb4

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Subject: RE: Tour de France Sprint Finish
Originally posted by Aarondb4

 

Question for you experts...

What is the point of winning a stage? I can see racing for one of the jerseys or some of the money at the intermediate sprints and such, but what is the benefit to winning a stage?

Reason I ask is Marcell Kittel. His team killed themselves to get him those stage wins, he is currently 38 minutes off the yellow jersey pace even with 3 stage wins so obviously not a GC contender whatsoever. So one would assume he is a dedicated sprinter and thus would be interested in the green jersey. But then yesterday he has a chance for 20 points at the intermediate sprint and he just cruises along, no effort at all. So he is not challenging Sagan for the jersey and not a GC contender, what is his purpose other than stage wins? What do stage wins do for the rider or team?




Your sponsors love for you to win a stage. Hence their logo front and center of all the serious sports/cycling papers and websites for the next day.

Teams will discuss with their sponsors (based on their team setup) what their goals are for the large tours.

So for example in 2012 Omega Pharma-Quick Step go out of their way to court Mark Cavendish from Sky. Sky were focused on putting a GC contender together and set the team up accordingly. So Cav moves to a team where the focus will be stage wins that suit an out and out sprinter. This suits Omega who may have agreed with their sponsors that the chance of taking 6 or so stage wins on a grand tour is worth more to them than getting bogged down in chasing other goals.
2014-07-11 12:08 PM
in reply to: Aarondb4

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Subject: RE: Tour de France Sprint Finish
Originally posted by Aarondb4

 

Question for you experts...

What is the point of winning a stage? I can see racing for one of the jerseys or some of the money at the intermediate sprints and such, but what is the benefit to winning a stage?

Reason I ask is Marcell Kittel. His team killed themselves to get him those stage wins, he is currently 38 minutes off the yellow jersey pace even with 3 stage wins so obviously not a GC contender whatsoever. So one would assume he is a dedicated sprinter and thus would be interested in the green jersey. But then yesterday he has a chance for 20 points at the intermediate sprint and he just cruises along, no effort at all. So he is not challenging Sagan for the jersey and not a GC contender, what is his purpose other than stage wins? What do stage wins do for the rider or team?





Exposure to yourself and sponsors. Of course there is prize money as well.

And of course being an old around bad a$$ of winning stages in the sports biggest event.

Kittel won't being able to get over the mountains to win the Green Jersey w/ Sagan.
2014-07-11 12:26 PM
in reply to: Aarondb4


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Subject: RE: Tour de France Sprint Finish
Originally posted by Aarondb4

 

Question for you experts...

What is the point of winning a stage? I can see racing for one of the jerseys or some of the money at the intermediate sprints and such, but what is the benefit to winning a stage?



Intermediate sprints pay around $2000 winning a stage pays around $30000.


2014-07-11 1:39 PM
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Subject: RE: Tour de France Sprint Finish

Originally posted by Aarondb4

 

Question for you experts...

What is the point of winning a stage? I can see racing for one of the jerseys or some of the money at the intermediate sprints and such, but what is the benefit to winning a stage?

Reason I ask is Marcell Kittel. His team killed themselves to get him those stage wins, he is currently 38 minutes off the yellow jersey pace even with 3 stage wins so obviously not a GC contender whatsoever. So one would assume he is a dedicated sprinter and thus would be interested in the green jersey. But then yesterday he has a chance for 20 points at the intermediate sprint and he just cruises along, no effort at all. So he is not challenging Sagan for the jersey and not a GC contender, what is his purpose other than stage wins? What do stage wins do for the rider or team?

The casual viewer of the TdF thinks that it's all about the yellow jersey.  It's far far far more than that.

About 90% of the field enters the TdF knowing that the don't give a rats azz about their final GC position.  And as I mentioned before, many of them will purposely tank their overall time to set themselves up to win stages later on.  The higher you are in the GC, the less likely the GC teams will let you get away.  If you're not a threat to them, they'll just mark the other GC riders.  To the casual fan, this may seem to devalue a stage win as not everyone is trying their hardest on every stage...but once you realize just how close these guys are to each other in terms of fitness...you'll realize that it's still a HUGE accomplishment to win a stage even though only about 10-30 guys are going for it.  

ETA:  There are many pro riders, who may ride in 5+ TdFs (That's A LOT) that will never win a stage.  So even winning one stage is what you can hang your entire career on.

ETA2: Going back to my point about not everyone going for every stage.  Realize that it's a 3 week race.  If every rider went all out on every stage trying for the win or to keep as high a GC position as possible...the entire field would be shattered to pieces by the end of Stage 4.  You can't race like that for 3 weeks.  You'll see stages later on in week 2 and 3 where the GC contenders and the peloton will sort of just cruise it and let a breakaway win because they need to recover for a mountain stage coming up.  Those guys in the breakaway don't care about the mountain stage coming up...they know they're likely to expend so much energy in the stage they are in now that they'll get dropped really bad in the mountains...but use that as sort of a recovery ride so they can get in the break again later.



Edited by Jason N 2014-07-11 1:45 PM
2014-07-11 4:42 PM
in reply to: Jason N

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Subject: RE: Tour de France Sprint Finish

 

Thanks for all the info, this is my first year actually paying attention to each stage so there are some new things to learn. Just figured Kittell would be more interested in the green, but I suppose if he already knows he can't track Sagan thru the hills then there really is no point.

I knew there were a lot of guys that are just there to get "their man" to the GC finish, but I was unaware of all the other offshoot goals. Figured every team had at least one GC contender.

So are there only a handful of guys in cycling that can contend for GC so there are only a few teams interested? Or do certain teams tend to never care about GC and pick sprinters instead? Or is it more of hedging your bet as a team GM? If you can't have one of the top 5 GC guys then you just build a sprint team instead?

The Giant Shimano team sure has been impressive to watch, they know how to control a race finish.

How bout the Canondale team? Sagan is a sprinter but he never seems to have much help at the front at the end of a race. Does the Canondale team have a GC guy or is Sagan the GC guy and the team is saving it's energy?

2014-07-11 6:33 PM
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Subject: RE: Tour de France Sprint Finish

Originally posted by Aarondb4

 

Thanks for all the info, this is my first year actually paying attention to each stage so there are some new things to learn.

I was in the same boat as you 4 years ago.  I only knew about 5 riders by name...I still don't know them all, but the more you watch, the more you appreciate all the riders and their abilities.  That's when cycling becomes even more interesting to watch.

Just figured Kittell would be more interested in the green, but I suppose if he already knows he can't track Sagan thru the hills then there really is no point.

 

Exactly.  Because there are a lot more intermediate points available, Sagan is the overwhelming favorite to win the points classification.  He'll scoop up so many points on the medium hilly stages when all the other pure sprinters will get zero points that it's not worth wasting your energy now...just go for the overall stage win.  Before, there were far less points available in the intermediate sprints...so only people in the breakaway (who don't care about points) scooped them all up.  I think it was just 5-4-3-2-1 points for the top 5...and usually that's how big the breakaway is.  So when the peloton comes through the intermediate sprint, there's nothing left.  Instead, the peloton now sprints for around 8-11 points at the intermediate...which adds up quickly.   

I knew there were a lot of guys that are just there to get "their man" to the GC finish, but I was unaware of all the other offshoot goals. Figured every team had at least one GC contender.  So are there only a handful of guys in cycling that can contend for GC so there are only a few teams interested? Or do certain teams tend to never care about GC and pick sprinters instead? Or is it more of hedging your bet as a team GM? If you can't have one of the top 5 GC guys then you just build a sprint team instead?

Most teams have a GC contender, but even if they have one, it's not to say that their entire team will support them.  They know that most of the work will be done by the big GC teams (Sky, Astana, Tinkov, etc.), so they can afford to have their GC somewhat unprotected and still have other goals for the rest of their team.  Because their GC is just going for a top 10-15, there is no point in dedicating a lot of team resources to them compared to a team who has a GC that is going for the win or the podium.  

In general, your team has a focus and you build your team around that.  Keep in mind that major UCI teams generally have 20+ riders under contract, and depending on the race, they pick the 9 that suits their goals.  For example, in the Giro, Cav did not race for Omega Pharma Quick Step.  It was not a good tour for sprinters, so they picked their team to ride for Uran as a GC contender.  Which means they leave guys like Renshaw (Cav's leadout man) off the team as well.  For the TdF, OPQS was basically all in for Cav winning stages...so they left Uran of the team as well as some of their better GC domestiques.  Uran has the potential to pull off a top 10 in the GC at the TdF, but the team didn't want to focus on both sprinting and the GC...it's stretching their resources too far.

 

How bout the Canondale team? Sagan is a sprinter but he never seems to have much help at the front at the end of a race. Does the Canondale team have a GC guy or is Sagan the GC guy and the team is saving it's energy?

Cannondale knows that Sagan is not a pure drag race sprinter.  Straight up against guys like Kittel and Cav on the flats, he can't match their pure speed.  So dedicating resources for him on the leadout train is not worth it.  Sagan does just fine scooping up points following the wheels of the other top sprinters even if it means he can't actually come around them.  He knows that teams like Giant Shimano and Lotto (Griepel) will not let a breakaway get away on a flat stage so Cannondale doesn't need to do the chasing there either.  They just need to keep Sagan safe.  Where Cannondale will need to do work is on the medium hilly stages.  Those are the stages that Sagan can win, and it will be their job to reel in the break and lead Sagan out because sprinting teams like Giant will not bother when Kittel is already dropped from the lead pack.  You may have also saw Cannondale doing a lot of work on Stage 5 over the cobbles...again...that's a stage that Sagan could have won and Kittel had no chance.  So it was up to Cannondale to reel in the break.  Just restating that you have to pick your battles in a 3 week tour.  You can't burn up your team on every stage.

 



Edited by Jason N 2014-07-11 6:34 PM
2014-07-14 10:51 AM
in reply to: Jason N

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Subject: RE: Tour de France Sprint Finish

Originally posted by Jason N

Originally posted by Aarondb4

 

Thanks for all the info, this is my first year actually paying attention to each stage so there are some new things to learn.

I was in the same boat as you 4 years ago.  I only knew about 5 riders by name...I still don't know them all, but the more you watch, the more you appreciate all the riders and their abilities.  That's when cycling becomes even more interesting to watch.

Just figured Kittell would be more interested in the green, but I suppose if he already knows he can't track Sagan thru the hills then there really is no point.

 

Exactly.  Because there are a lot more intermediate points available, Sagan is the overwhelming favorite to win the points classification.  He'll scoop up so many points on the medium hilly stages when all the other pure sprinters will get zero points that it's not worth wasting your energy now...just go for the overall stage win.  Before, there were far less points available in the intermediate sprints...so only people in the breakaway (who don't care about points) scooped them all up.  I think it was just 5-4-3-2-1 points for the top 5...and usually that's how big the breakaway is.  So when the peloton comes through the intermediate sprint, there's nothing left.  Instead, the peloton now sprints for around 8-11 points at the intermediate...which adds up quickly.   

I knew there were a lot of guys that are just there to get "their man" to the GC finish, but I was unaware of all the other offshoot goals. Figured every team had at least one GC contender.  So are there only a handful of guys in cycling that can contend for GC so there are only a few teams interested? Or do certain teams tend to never care about GC and pick sprinters instead? Or is it more of hedging your bet as a team GM? If you can't have one of the top 5 GC guys then you just build a sprint team instead?

Most teams have a GC contender, but even if they have one, it's not to say that their entire team will support them.  They know that most of the work will be done by the big GC teams (Sky, Astana, Tinkov, etc.), so they can afford to have their GC somewhat unprotected and still have other goals for the rest of their team.  Because their GC is just going for a top 10-15, there is no point in dedicating a lot of team resources to them compared to a team who has a GC that is going for the win or the podium.  

In general, your team has a focus and you build your team around that.  Keep in mind that major UCI teams generally have 20+ riders under contract, and depending on the race, they pick the 9 that suits their goals.  For example, in the Giro, Cav did not race for Omega Pharma Quick Step.  It was not a good tour for sprinters, so they picked their team to ride for Uran as a GC contender.  Which means they leave guys like Renshaw (Cav's leadout man) off the team as well.  For the TdF, OPQS was basically all in for Cav winning stages...so they left Uran of the team as well as some of their better GC domestiques.  Uran has the potential to pull off a top 10 in the GC at the TdF, but the team didn't want to focus on both sprinting and the GC...it's stretching their resources too far.

 

How bout the Canondale team? Sagan is a sprinter but he never seems to have much help at the front at the end of a race. Does the Canondale team have a GC guy or is Sagan the GC guy and the team is saving it's energy?

Cannondale knows that Sagan is not a pure drag race sprinter.  Straight up against guys like Kittel and Cav on the flats, he can't match their pure speed.  So dedicating resources for him on the leadout train is not worth it.  Sagan does just fine scooping up points following the wheels of the other top sprinters even if it means he can't actually come around them.  He knows that teams like Giant Shimano and Lotto (Griepel) will not let a breakaway get away on a flat stage so Cannondale doesn't need to do the chasing there either.  They just need to keep Sagan safe.  Where Cannondale will need to do work is on the medium hilly stages.  Those are the stages that Sagan can win, and it will be their job to reel in the break and lead Sagan out because sprinting teams like Giant will not bother when Kittel is already dropped from the lead pack.  You may have also saw Cannondale doing a lot of work on Stage 5 over the cobbles...again...that's a stage that Sagan could have won and Kittel had no chance.  So it was up to Cannondale to reel in the break.  Just restating that you have to pick your battles in a 3 week tour.  You can't burn up your team on every stage.

 

 

Thanks for the education Jason. The more I learn about bike racing the more I like it, the physical capabilities of the riders are impressive but it definitely takes a lot of strategy and teamwork as well, very cool to see a team plan a stage and then execute their plan.

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