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2014-08-18 4:00 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: "In Wake of Clashes, Calls to Demilitarize Police"
Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by pga_mike

The cops have F-15s, tanks, grenades and rocket launchers?

They are a long way from the military.

F-15's no, choppers equipped with machine guns, yes. Taniks, bascially yes.  Grenades, yes.  Rockets, not yet.  

The thing is, we might be a long way from OUR military.  But I wonder how the nation's police departments and officers, collectively,  stand up to other armies of the world.  I think we'd all be surprised. (that's not a comment on whether it's right or wrong.....just an observation)




I think another concern that's worth pointing out is one of training. If memory serves, PO's in NYC are required to recertify their pistol marksmanship once (maybe twice?) per year. I have no idea whether that's typical, but when you have cops firing multiple bullets and not hitting anyone or worse, innoocent bystanders, it makes me question whether there shouldn't be more stringent standards for aptitude. If we're adding assault rifles (that's what they are, right?), non-lethal projectle weapons, tactical shotguns, etc. to the mix, is there really time and resources to adequetely train all of these officers to use this equipment if there's barely enough time to ensure that they're competent with their own service weapon?



2014-08-18 5:17 PM
in reply to: jmk-brooklyn

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Subject: RE: "In Wake of Clashes, Calls to Demilitarize Police"

Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn
Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by pga_mike

The cops have F-15s, tanks, grenades and rocket launchers?

They are a long way from the military.

F-15's no, choppers equipped with machine guns, yes. Taniks, bascially yes.  Grenades, yes.  Rockets, not yet.  

The thing is, we might be a long way from OUR military.  But I wonder how the nation's police departments and officers, collectively,  stand up to other armies of the world.  I think we'd all be surprised. (that's not a comment on whether it's right or wrong.....just an observation)

I think another concern that's worth pointing out is one of training. If memory serves, PO's in NYC are required to recertify their pistol marksmanship once (maybe twice?) per year. I have no idea whether that's typical, but when you have cops firing multiple bullets and not hitting anyone or worse, innoocent bystanders, it makes me question whether there shouldn't be more stringent standards for aptitude. If we're adding assault rifles (that's what they are, right?), non-lethal projectle weapons, tactical shotguns, etc. to the mix, is there really time and resources to adequetely train all of these officers to use this equipment if there's barely enough time to ensure that they're competent with their own service weapon?

It's pretty department specific and largely depends on how motivated the firearms instructors are.....at least at smaller departments.  Our guys have an opportunity to shoot monthly, and MUST qualify at least quarterly with their sidearms.  For rifles and shotguns it's a twice per year qualification due to range space (you can't shoot a rifle at just any range).

Truly, time isn't a big issue.....money is.

2014-08-19 9:33 AM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: "In Wake of Clashes, Calls to Demilitarize Police"

Sorry I'm jumping in a little late on this one.

There are really a couple different aspects when it comes to the "militarization" of the police.  I'm a big proponent of police officers being able to respond to the threats that are out there.  As was mentioned the Hollywood shooting and general active shooter type scenarios do require an increase in firepower.
I have a lot of friends who are police officers and they have every right to be able to come home safely to their families.

The part that I do have issues with is where we have virtually every department of the government building a paramilitary wing;  DOE, IRS, BLM, Department of Agriculture, the Railroad Retirement Board, the Tennessee Valley Authority, the Office of Personnel Management, the Consumer Product Safety Commission, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, etc.  If any of these entities have an issue that requires the police to be involved then they need to involve the local police, FBI, or ATF not build their own freaking law enforcement teams.

I don't get into the conspiracy theories that it's all a big ploy to oppress the people, it's simply a symptom of our governments dysfunction.  These departmental leaders cannot figure out how to work together, so they just do it on their own.  I've seen this in my line of work in large companies.  There's a central IT department for the entire company and each department gets allocated an "expense" for the services.  There's always a handful of departments who think they can do a better job themselves and refuse to pay the services and ultimately build their own half baked IT department.  We call them "empire builders" because they're too arrogant to work with others and want full control.  Then you take executive management who doesn't have the balls to make people conform which enables hundreds of little dysfunctional empires to form within a large company.  It's dangerous, inefficient, and most importantly stupid.
Our government is a perfect example of hundreds of little empires with their own military/law enforcement branches because they simply can't/wont work together and our leaders are too incompetent to make them.

2014-08-19 10:49 PM
in reply to: tuwood

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Subject: RE: "In Wake of Clashes, Calls to Demilitarize Police"
While I like to give the cops a fighting chance. Most of the things below I agree should be ban.

"Grayson's effort prohibited the Department of Defense's 1033 program from transferring "aircraft (including unmanned aerial vehicles), armored vehicles, grenade launchers, silencers, toxicological agents (including chemical agents, biological agents, and associated equipment), launch vehicles, guided missiles, ballistic missiles, rockets, torpedoes, bombs, mines, or nuclear weapons" to local cops"

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/wp/2014/08/18/the-house...

2014-08-20 7:59 AM
in reply to: chirunner134

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Subject: RE: "In Wake of Clashes, Calls to Demilitarize Police"

Originally posted by chirunner134 While I like to give the cops a fighting chance. Most of the things below I agree should be ban. "Grayson's effort prohibited the Department of Defense's 1033 program from transferring "aircraft (including unmanned aerial vehicles), armored vehicles, grenade launchers, silencers, toxicological agents (including chemical agents, biological agents, and associated equipment), launch vehicles, guided missiles, ballistic missiles, rockets, torpedoes, bombs, mines, or nuclear weapons" to local cops" http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/wp/2014/08/18/the-house...

OK, that list made me laugh.

I can see LB lobbying hard for the torpedoes.  I mean, what if the guy jumps in the river and tries to swim away.  

2014-08-20 8:18 AM
in reply to: louamerica

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Subject: RE: "In Wake of Clashes, Calls to Demilitarize Police"

Originally posted by louamerica As long as regular people are allowed to buy military class weapons because of the second amendment, the police needs to equally as equipped. As long as I can get an AR15, or an AK or Uzi on eBay or at the next gun show, there has to be a deterrent to using them for whatever. Whatever went down in ferguson is a complete tragedy. Not just for everyone, but especially for the looting public. I do not fault the police for showing up looking like they were loaded for bear.

Just maybe it's not the regular people buying military class weapons, but the criminals that obtain them illegally that drives the police to be militarized.  I really don't think the Police fear the regular lawful gun owners.  Just saying.



2014-08-20 8:36 AM
in reply to: velocomp

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Subject: RE: "In Wake of Clashes, Calls to Demilitarize Police"

Originally posted by velocomp

Originally posted by louamerica As long as regular people are allowed to buy military class weapons because of the second amendment, the police needs to equally as equipped. As long as I can get an AR15, or an AK or Uzi on eBay or at the next gun show, there has to be a deterrent to using them for whatever. Whatever went down in ferguson is a complete tragedy. Not just for everyone, but especially for the looting public. I do not fault the police for showing up looking like they were loaded for bear.

Just maybe it's not the regular people buying military class weapons, but the criminals that obtain them illegally that drives the police to be militarized.  I really don't think the Police fear the regular lawful gun owners.  Just saying.

Nope, not one bit.

2014-08-20 8:37 AM
in reply to: tuwood

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Subject: RE: "In Wake of Clashes, Calls to Demilitarize Police"

Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by chirunner134 While I like to give the cops a fighting chance. Most of the things below I agree should be ban. "Grayson's effort prohibited the Department of Defense's 1033 program from transferring "aircraft (including unmanned aerial vehicles), armored vehicles, grenade launchers, silencers, toxicological agents (including chemical agents, biological agents, and associated equipment), launch vehicles, guided missiles, ballistic missiles, rockets, torpedoes, bombs, mines, or nuclear weapons" to local cops" http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/wp/2014/08/18/the-house...

OK, that list made me laugh.

I can see LB lobbying hard for the torpedoes.  I mean, what if the guy jumps in the river and tries to swim away.  

Dude - if I could get my hands on a torpedo I could change triathlon swims forever.

2014-08-20 4:43 PM
in reply to: louamerica

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Subject: RE: "In Wake of Clashes, Calls to Demilitarize Police"
Originally posted by louamerica

As long as regular people are allowed to buy military class weapons because of the second amendment, the police needs to equally as equipped.
As long as I can get an AR15, or an AK or Uzi on eBay or at the next gun show, there has to be a deterrent to using them for whatever.
Whatever went down in ferguson is a complete tragedy. Not just for everyone, but especially for the looting public.
I do not fault the police for showing up looking like they were loaded for bear.


dont' forget facebook. when I was in Texas, I could have bought an AK off facebook garagesales for $2400
2014-08-20 6:51 PM
in reply to: sheesleeva

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Subject: RE: "In Wake of Clashes, Calls to Demilitarize Police"

Originally posted by sheesleeva
Originally posted by louamerica As long as regular people are allowed to buy military class weapons because of the second amendment, the police needs to equally as equipped. As long as I can get an AR15, or an AK or Uzi on eBay or at the next gun show, there has to be a deterrent to using them for whatever. Whatever went down in ferguson is a complete tragedy. Not just for everyone, but especially for the looting public. I do not fault the police for showing up looking like they were loaded for bear.
dont' forget facebook. when I was in Texas, I could have bought an AK off facebook garagesales for $2400

If you know of any buyers for 2400.00 let me know.

2014-08-21 7:04 AM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: "In Wake of Clashes, Calls to Demilitarize Police"
Back to the original topic, yes I have a great deal of concern for the direction a majority of depts. have taken. I have no problem with a swat team to respond to extreme circumstances, but that is not what those weapons and tactics are used primarily for now days. They are routinely used for carrying out arrest warrants, many times for non violent offenses as well as routine search warrants. When they get the address wrong (happens more times than you think) there is very little recourse for the people who were terrorized and had there property damaged. Then there is the increase in shooting of pet dogs by officers, a whole separate issue in itself.

I am not anti police, I have a great deal of respect for them for doing a tough job. I just have concern about the "militarization". A good read on the topic, with lots of stats and the history of how we got here is Rise of the Warrior Cop: the Militarization of America's Police" by Radley Balko.


2014-08-21 10:03 AM
in reply to: NXS

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Subject: RE: "In Wake of Clashes, Calls to Demilitarize Police"

Originally posted by NXS  I just have concern about the "militarization". 

I think that's a legitimate concern.

2014-08-25 11:00 AM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: "In Wake of Clashes, Calls to Demilitarize Police"
On the National Guard; they technically can't arrest anyone, only assist police. Further described in US Code Title 32. US Military operates under Title 10. They have more restrictions than the NG under 32.

My state had been setting up a counter-terrorism unit of some kind, not sure how far they got with that, it was after 9/11.

And on the militarization of the police, having the equipment is I think less the issue than how often they're using it. Seems SWAT teams are being used for lower-level incidents than a few years ago.

2014-08-25 11:44 AM
in reply to: tcj103

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Subject: RE: "In Wake of Clashes, Calls to Demilitarize Police"
Originally posted by tcj103

On the National Guard; they technically can't arrest anyone, only assist police. Further described in US Code Title 32. US Military operates under Title 10. They have more restrictions than the NG under 32.

My state had been setting up a counter-terrorism unit of some kind, not sure how far they got with that, it was after 9/11.

And on the militarization of the police, having the equipment is I think less the issue than how often they're using it. Seems SWAT teams are being used for lower-level incidents than a few years ago.




That's what happens. You buy a fancy new triathlon bike and you can only ride it on the trainer so many times. Eventually, you're going to want to take it out on the road and open it up. Likewise, you get a police force who suddenly has an influx of high-tech tactical gear, armored vehicles, and the like, they're going to want to take it for a spin, even if it's just to serve a warrant on a deadbeat dad or oversee crowd control at a college student protest.
2014-09-08 12:09 AM
in reply to: jmk-brooklyn

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Subject: RE: "In Wake of Clashes, Calls to Demilitarize Police"
"demilitarizing" the police isn't a statement about equipment. It's a statement about COPS. It's understandable that many individuals from the military seek employment in the law enforcement field. The problem though is that COMBAT reactions/judgement/experience are a shoot first, ask questions second. The police need to re-evaluate their entrance criteria and direct combat vets to the fire department. The police in the United States have killed over 400 people in the last 5 years, many of those deaths could have prevented by police that opened their mouths instead of opening fire.

I grew up just outside of Beavercreek, Ohio. Hopefully you have heard about the death of John Crawford III. He was gunned down by two police officers INSIDE a Wal-Mart. Interviews with those involved have painted a picture that he was shot multiple times before the officers told him to drop his weapon. He was holding an AIR RIFLE. I've waived a Daisy BB gun around in that store. The police simply saw a black man with a gun and shot him...
2014-09-08 8:30 AM
in reply to: S_Franklin99

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Subject: RE: "In Wake of Clashes, Calls to Demilitarize Police"

Originally posted by S_Franklin99 "demilitarizing" the police isn't a statement about equipment. It's a statement about COPS. It's understandable that many individuals from the military seek employment in the law enforcement field. The problem though is that COMBAT reactions/judgement/experience are a shoot first, ask questions second. The police need to re-evaluate their entrance criteria and direct combat vets to the fire department. The police in the United States have killed over 400 people in the last 5 years, many of those deaths could have prevented by police that opened their mouths instead of opening fire. I grew up just outside of Beavercreek, Ohio. Hopefully you have heard about the death of John Crawford III. He was gunned down by two police officers INSIDE a Wal-Mart. Interviews with those involved have painted a picture that he was shot multiple times before the officers told him to drop his weapon. He was holding an AIR RIFLE. I've waived a Daisy BB gun around in that store. The police simply saw a black man with a gun and shot him...

I'm a huge advocate for individual rights and civil liberties, but it's really not practical to ask a police officer to determine the make/model and lethality of a weapon being pointed at them within a fraction of a second.

I am with you in spirit, but I would never second guess a police officer who shoots at an armed person, no matter what kind of weapon they have.



2014-09-08 8:30 AM
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Subject: RE: "In Wake of Clashes, Calls to Demilitarize Police"

Originally posted by S_Franklin99 "demilitarizing" the police isn't a statement about equipment. It's a statement about COPS. It's understandable that many individuals from the military seek employment in the law enforcement field. The problem though is that COMBAT reactions/judgement/experience are a shoot first, ask questions second. The police need to re-evaluate their entrance criteria and direct combat vets to the fire department. The police in the United States have killed over 400 people in the last 5 years, many of those deaths could have prevented by police that opened their mouths instead of opening fire. I grew up just outside of Beavercreek, Ohio. Hopefully you have heard about the death of John Crawford III. He was gunned down by two police officers INSIDE a Wal-Mart. Interviews with those involved have painted a picture that he was shot multiple times before the officers told him to drop his weapon. He was holding an AIR RIFLE. I've waived a Daisy BB gun around in that store. The police simply saw a black man with a gun and shot him...

Hopefully you have heard that 679 Police Officers were killed in the line of duty over those same 5 years.  You have probably also heard that the Police have had MILLIONS of contacts with violent people over those same 5 years and almost all of them did not end in death.  Numbers...... they don't count much in this discussion. 

Also.....I don't wave any kind of gun around anywhere in today's world.....but that's just me.



Edited by Left Brain 2014-09-08 8:32 AM
2014-09-08 8:33 AM
in reply to: tuwood

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Subject: RE: "In Wake of Clashes, Calls to Demilitarize Police"

Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by S_Franklin99 "demilitarizing" the police isn't a statement about equipment. It's a statement about COPS. It's understandable that many individuals from the military seek employment in the law enforcement field. The problem though is that COMBAT reactions/judgement/experience are a shoot first, ask questions second. The police need to re-evaluate their entrance criteria and direct combat vets to the fire department. The police in the United States have killed over 400 people in the last 5 years, many of those deaths could have prevented by police that opened their mouths instead of opening fire. I grew up just outside of Beavercreek, Ohio. Hopefully you have heard about the death of John Crawford III. He was gunned down by two police officers INSIDE a Wal-Mart. Interviews with those involved have painted a picture that he was shot multiple times before the officers told him to drop his weapon. He was holding an AIR RIFLE. I've waived a Daisy BB gun around in that store. The police simply saw a black man with a gun and shot him...

I'm a huge advocate for individual rights and civil liberties, but it's really not practical to ask a police officer to determine the make/model and lethality of a weapon being pointed at them within a fraction of a second.

I am with you in spirit, but I would never second guess a police officer who shoots at an armed person, no matter what kind of weapon they have.

Read more about the situation.  This one does not look good for law enforcement.  At least upon initial reading of many of the reports.

2014-09-08 8:40 AM
in reply to: crowny2

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Subject: RE: "In Wake of Clashes, Calls to Demilitarize Police"

Originally posted by crowny2

Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by S_Franklin99 "demilitarizing" the police isn't a statement about equipment. It's a statement about COPS. It's understandable that many individuals from the military seek employment in the law enforcement field. The problem though is that COMBAT reactions/judgement/experience are a shoot first, ask questions second. The police need to re-evaluate their entrance criteria and direct combat vets to the fire department. The police in the United States have killed over 400 people in the last 5 years, many of those deaths could have prevented by police that opened their mouths instead of opening fire. I grew up just outside of Beavercreek, Ohio. Hopefully you have heard about the death of John Crawford III. He was gunned down by two police officers INSIDE a Wal-Mart. Interviews with those involved have painted a picture that he was shot multiple times before the officers told him to drop his weapon. He was holding an AIR RIFLE. I've waived a Daisy BB gun around in that store. The police simply saw a black man with a gun and shot him...

I'm a huge advocate for individual rights and civil liberties, but it's really not practical to ask a police officer to determine the make/model and lethality of a weapon being pointed at them within a fraction of a second.

I am with you in spirit, but I would never second guess a police officer who shoots at an armed person, no matter what kind of weapon they have.

Read more about the situation.  This one does not look good for law enforcement.  At least upon initial reading of many of the reports.

I'm was generalizing because I haven't read any of the reports on that particular case.  However, I do still give the benefit of the doubt to the police when the guy has a "gun" of any type.

I know there was a recent one here in Omaha where a COPS crew member was caught in the crossfire.  The bad guy had an airsoft gun, but based on the pictures of the gun, it looked exactly like a real gun.

2014-09-08 10:48 AM
in reply to: tuwood

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Subject: RE: "In Wake of Clashes, Calls to Demilitarize Police"

Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by crowny2

Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by S_Franklin99 "demilitarizing" the police isn't a statement about equipment. It's a statement about COPS. It's understandable that many individuals from the military seek employment in the law enforcement field. The problem though is that COMBAT reactions/judgement/experience are a shoot first, ask questions second. The police need to re-evaluate their entrance criteria and direct combat vets to the fire department. The police in the United States have killed over 400 people in the last 5 years, many of those deaths could have prevented by police that opened their mouths instead of opening fire. I grew up just outside of Beavercreek, Ohio. Hopefully you have heard about the death of John Crawford III. He was gunned down by two police officers INSIDE a Wal-Mart. Interviews with those involved have painted a picture that he was shot multiple times before the officers told him to drop his weapon. He was holding an AIR RIFLE. I've waived a Daisy BB gun around in that store. The police simply saw a black man with a gun and shot him...

I'm a huge advocate for individual rights and civil liberties, but it's really not practical to ask a police officer to determine the make/model and lethality of a weapon being pointed at them within a fraction of a second.

I am with you in spirit, but I would never second guess a police officer who shoots at an armed person, no matter what kind of weapon they have.

Read more about the situation.  This one does not look good for law enforcement.  At least upon initial reading of many of the reports.

I'm was generalizing because I haven't read any of the reports on that particular case.  However, I do still give the benefit of the doubt to the police when the guy has a "gun" of any type.

I know there was a recent one here in Omaha where a COPS crew member was caught in the crossfire.  The bad guy had an airsoft gun, but based on the pictures of the gun, it looked exactly like a real gun.

He got the gun at the Wal-Mart.  Normally I too give law enforcement the benefit of the doubt.  In this case, based on all of the reports I'm reading (which granted could easily be slanted) sounds as if they made a HUGE mistake.  

2014-09-08 11:40 AM
in reply to: crowny2

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Subject: RE: "In Wake of Clashes, Calls to Demilitarize Police"

Originally posted by crowny2

Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by crowny2

Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by S_Franklin99 "demilitarizing" the police isn't a statement about equipment. It's a statement about COPS. It's understandable that many individuals from the military seek employment in the law enforcement field. The problem though is that COMBAT reactions/judgement/experience are a shoot first, ask questions second. The police need to re-evaluate their entrance criteria and direct combat vets to the fire department. The police in the United States have killed over 400 people in the last 5 years, many of those deaths could have prevented by police that opened their mouths instead of opening fire. I grew up just outside of Beavercreek, Ohio. Hopefully you have heard about the death of John Crawford III. He was gunned down by two police officers INSIDE a Wal-Mart. Interviews with those involved have painted a picture that he was shot multiple times before the officers told him to drop his weapon. He was holding an AIR RIFLE. I've waived a Daisy BB gun around in that store. The police simply saw a black man with a gun and shot him...

I'm a huge advocate for individual rights and civil liberties, but it's really not practical to ask a police officer to determine the make/model and lethality of a weapon being pointed at them within a fraction of a second.

I am with you in spirit, but I would never second guess a police officer who shoots at an armed person, no matter what kind of weapon they have.

Read more about the situation.  This one does not look good for law enforcement.  At least upon initial reading of many of the reports.

I'm was generalizing because I haven't read any of the reports on that particular case.  However, I do still give the benefit of the doubt to the police when the guy has a "gun" of any type.

I know there was a recent one here in Omaha where a COPS crew member was caught in the crossfire.  The bad guy had an airsoft gun, but based on the pictures of the gun, it looked exactly like a real gun.

He got the gun at the Wal-Mart.  Normally I too give law enforcement the benefit of the doubt.  In this case, based on all of the reports I'm reading (which granted could easily be slanted) sounds as if they made a HUGE mistake.  

I hadn't heard about the story mentioned above so I just read a few articles on it.  Honestly, I feel it's more of a freaked out citizen being the problem than it was the police.  If the police are told a dude is waving a gun around and pointing it at people and just loaded it, the police are going to come in very charged up with an "active shooter" type mentality.

Then the poor kid with the BB gun who gets startled by the police reacts instinctively (or whatever) and the charged up police assuming the worse react.

I agree that it's a terrible mistake, but I feel there's about 10% fault with the police and about 90% fault with the prejudiced individual who called 911 in the first place because he saw a black kid carrying a "gun".  Ironically, it would have been perfectly legal for him to carrying a fully loaded assault rifle because the state allows open carry.



2014-09-08 11:54 AM
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Subject: RE: "In Wake of Clashes, Calls to Demilitarize Police"

It's a tragedy for sure.  I'm always thankful there are men and women willing to run into a situation where the best information they have is that there is a man with a gun shooting people, or getting ready to shoot people.  It's been my experience that you meet most of the people being critical of how the Police handle these types of situations running in the opposite direction.  I feel bad for the kid and his family.  I feel bad for the Officers who had to respond.  I feel bad for the prosecutors who now have to deal with this.  What a mess.



Edited by Left Brain 2014-09-08 11:56 AM
2014-09-08 12:22 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: "In Wake of Clashes, Calls to Demilitarize Police"

Originally posted by Left Brain

It's a tragedy for sure.  I'm always thankful there are men and women willing to run into a situation where the best information they have is that there is a man with a gun shooting people, or getting ready to shoot people.  It's been my experience that you meet most of the people being critical of how the Police handle these types of situations running in the opposite direction.  I feel bad for the kid and his family.  I feel bad for the Officers who had to respond.  I feel bad for the prosecutors who now have to deal with this.  What a mess.

Understatement of the day/week/month/year.

 

 

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