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2014-09-24 10:38 AM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: "In Wake of Clashes, Calls to Demilitarize Police"

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by crusevegas

Not related to your post Crowny but saw this on the news.

 

http://www.vice.com/read/a-court-ruled-that-a-swat-raid-on-a-barbershop-was-totally-ridiculous-922 

 

I am fan of LEO's but wtf were they thinking?

It must be something about hair that drives people crazy.   They keep looting the same beauty shop here in the Michael Brown protest saga.......people just can't have nice hair. LOL

 

LB, have you looked in the mirror lately? Just sayin.



2014-09-24 10:42 AM
in reply to: crusevegas

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Subject: RE: "In Wake of Clashes, Calls to Demilitarize Police"

Originally posted by crusevegas

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by crusevegas

Not related to your post Crowny but saw this on the news.

 

http://www.vice.com/read/a-court-ruled-that-a-swat-raid-on-a-barbershop-was-totally-ridiculous-922 

 

I am fan of LEO's but wtf were they thinking?

It must be something about hair that drives people crazy.   They keep looting the same beauty shop here in the Michael Brown protest saga.......people just can't have nice hair. LOL

 

LB, have you looked in the mirror lately? Just sayin.

That guy cracks me up still.

2014-09-24 1:04 PM
in reply to: S_Franklin99

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Subject: RE: "In Wake of Clashes, Calls to Demilitarize Police"
Originally posted by S_Franklin99

"demilitarizing" the police isn't a statement about equipment. It's a statement about COPS. It's understandable that many individuals from the military seek employment in the law enforcement field. The problem though is that COMBAT reactions/judgement/experience are a shoot first, ask questions second. The police need to re-evaluate their entrance criteria and direct combat vets to the fire department. The police in the United States have killed over 400 people in the last 5 years, many of those deaths could have prevented by police that opened their mouths instead of opening fire.

I grew up just outside of Beavercreek, Ohio. Hopefully you have heard about the death of John Crawford III. He was gunned down by two police officers INSIDE a Wal-Mart. Interviews with those involved have painted a picture that he was shot multiple times before the officers told him to drop his weapon. He was holding an AIR RIFLE. I've waived a Daisy BB gun around in that store. The police simply saw a black man with a gun and shot him...



Currently the military is ruled by ROE in almost all settings, the days of a well defined enemy on the other side of the "line" is over, so vets typically have real world experience in identifying potential threats and making decisions in a high stress environment. This is a skill that directly translates into police activities. The police have to make a decision in a split second with limited and often conflicting information any experience in this field is welcome.
2014-09-24 5:41 PM
in reply to: b2b14

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Subject: RE: "In Wake of Clashes, Calls to Demilitarize Police"
Originally posted by b2b14

Originally posted by S_Franklin99

"demilitarizing" the police isn't a statement about equipment. It's a statement about COPS. It's understandable that many individuals from the military seek employment in the law enforcement field. The problem though is that COMBAT reactions/judgement/experience are a shoot first, ask questions second. The police need to re-evaluate their entrance criteria and direct combat vets to the fire department. The police in the United States have killed over 400 people in the last 5 years, many of those deaths could have prevented by police that opened their mouths instead of opening fire.

I grew up just outside of Beavercreek, Ohio. Hopefully you have heard about the death of John Crawford III. He was gunned down by two police officers INSIDE a Wal-Mart. Interviews with those involved have painted a picture that he was shot multiple times before the officers told him to drop his weapon. He was holding an AIR RIFLE. I've waived a Daisy BB gun around in that store. The police simply saw a black man with a gun and shot him...



Currently the military is ruled by ROE in almost all settings, the days of a well defined enemy on the other side of the "line" is over, so vets typically have real world experience in identifying potential threats and making decisions in a high stress environment. This is a skill that directly translates into police activities. The police have to make a decision in a split second with limited and often conflicting information any experience in this field is welcome.


I don't agree with the position that ex-military shouldn't be considered for police work. Obviously, there are a lot of transferable skills there. But a soldier has a completely different mission than a cop. A cop's job is to protect and serve the community of which he or she is a part. There is no "enemy". Even criminals are innocent until proven guilty under the laws that the LEO has sworn to uphold. I don't remember if it was this article or another one I read, but it made the point that if you treat cops like soldiers then some of them are naturally going to see their job as going to war. And if there's a war, then there must be an enemy to be defeated. So, for those particular cops with that particular view, lthe people they encounter in the course of doing their job, the logic follows, stop being their fellow citizens they are sworn to protect, and instead become enemy combatants.
2014-09-24 9:45 PM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: "In Wake of Clashes, Calls to Demilitarize Police"

Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn
Originally posted by b2b14
Originally posted by S_Franklin99 "demilitarizing" the police isn't a statement about equipment. It's a statement about COPS. It's understandable that many individuals from the military seek employment in the law enforcement field. The problem though is that COMBAT reactions/judgement/experience are a shoot first, ask questions second. The police need to re-evaluate their entrance criteria and direct combat vets to the fire department. The police in the United States have killed over 400 people in the last 5 years, many of those deaths could have prevented by police that opened their mouths instead of opening fire. I grew up just outside of Beavercreek, Ohio. Hopefully you have heard about the death of John Crawford III. He was gunned down by two police officers INSIDE a Wal-Mart. Interviews with those involved have painted a picture that he was shot multiple times before the officers told him to drop his weapon. He was holding an AIR RIFLE. I've waived a Daisy BB gun around in that store. The police simply saw a black man with a gun and shot him...
Currently the military is ruled by ROE in almost all settings, the days of a well defined enemy on the other side of the "line" is over, so vets typically have real world experience in identifying potential threats and making decisions in a high stress environment. This is a skill that directly translates into police activities. The police have to make a decision in a split second with limited and often conflicting information any experience in this field is welcome.
I don't agree with the position that ex-military shouldn't be considered for police work. Obviously, there are a lot of transferable skills there. But a soldier has a completely different mission than a cop. A cop's job is to protect and serve the community of which he or she is a part. There is no "enemy". Even criminals are innocent until proven guilty under the laws that the LEO has sworn to uphold. I don't remember if it was this article or another one I read, but it made the point that if you treat cops like soldiers then some of them are naturally going to see their job as going to war. And if there's a war, then there must be an enemy to be defeated. So, for those particular cops with that particular view, lthe people they encounter in the course of doing their job, the logic follows, stop being their fellow citizens they are sworn to protect, and instead become enemy combatants.

Oh, make no mistake, there is an enemy to be defeated.  There are individuals in our society with no conscience, no care for their fellow man.  These people are criminals to the bone.  I have had the opportunity to have many encounters with them......they are not like the rest of us.

In that light, there is truly nothing wrong with a police officer developing an "us against them" attitude.....it can serve you well, because "them" can and will kill you if you drop your guard and don't stay prepared for that battle which is surely coming.  You can't chase them and never have to confront them or fight them....it's a reality of the job.

The problem is, many police officers forget that it's ALL of us against them, not just the police.  The fact is, the huge, overwhelming majority of people are great....and they are part of the "us".  Once you start feeling like only the police are the "us", and everybody else is the "them", it's time to find a new line of work.....you've lost perspective, and you've lost the faith of the people you are sworn to protect.



Edited by Left Brain 2014-09-24 9:47 PM
2014-09-25 3:51 AM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: "In Wake of Clashes, Calls to Demilitarize Police"
Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn
Originally posted by b2b14
Originally posted by S_Franklin99 "demilitarizing" the police isn't a statement about equipment. It's a statement about COPS. It's understandable that many individuals from the military seek employment in the law enforcement field. The problem though is that COMBAT reactions/judgement/experience are a shoot first, ask questions second. The police need to re-evaluate their entrance criteria and direct combat vets to the fire department. The police in the United States have killed over 400 people in the last 5 years, many of those deaths could have prevented by police that opened their mouths instead of opening fire. I grew up just outside of Beavercreek, Ohio. Hopefully you have heard about the death of John Crawford III. He was gunned down by two police officers INSIDE a Wal-Mart. Interviews with those involved have painted a picture that he was shot multiple times before the officers told him to drop his weapon. He was holding an AIR RIFLE. I've waived a Daisy BB gun around in that store. The police simply saw a black man with a gun and shot him...
Currently the military is ruled by ROE in almost all settings, the days of a well defined enemy on the other side of the "line" is over, so vets typically have real world experience in identifying potential threats and making decisions in a high stress environment. This is a skill that directly translates into police activities. The police have to make a decision in a split second with limited and often conflicting information any experience in this field is welcome.
I don't agree with the position that ex-military shouldn't be considered for police work. Obviously, there are a lot of transferable skills there. But a soldier has a completely different mission than a cop. A cop's job is to protect and serve the community of which he or she is a part. There is no "enemy". Even criminals are innocent until proven guilty under the laws that the LEO has sworn to uphold. I don't remember if it was this article or another one I read, but it made the point that if you treat cops like soldiers then some of them are naturally going to see their job as going to war. And if there's a war, then there must be an enemy to be defeated. So, for those particular cops with that particular view, lthe people they encounter in the course of doing their job, the logic follows, stop being their fellow citizens they are sworn to protect, and instead become enemy combatants.

Oh, make no mistake, there is an enemy to be defeated.  There are individuals in our society with no conscience, no care for their fellow man.  These people are criminals to the bone.  I have had the opportunity to have many encounters with them......they are not like the rest of us.

In that light, there is truly nothing wrong with a police officer developing an "us against them" attitude.....it can serve you well, because "them" can and will kill you if you drop your guard and don't stay prepared for that battle which is surely coming.  You can't chase them and never have to confront them or fight them....it's a reality of the job.

The problem is, many police officers forget that it's ALL of us against them, not just the police.  The fact is, the huge, overwhelming majority of people are great....and they are part of the "us".  Once you start feeling like only the police are the "us", and everybody else is the "them", it's time to find a new line of work.....you've lost perspective, and you've lost the faith of the people you are sworn to protect.




I think we're basically saying the same thing. Cops aren't an occupying force sent from somewhere else. They're part of the community. Obviously, there are criminals within that community--if there weren't, we wouldn't need cops, but, unlike in a war, the cop is not foreign to the people who surround him. He's one of them.


2014-09-25 7:33 AM
in reply to: jmk-brooklyn

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Subject: RE: "In Wake of Clashes, Calls to Demilitarize Police"
+ 1 Left brain.

There is a part of society that most people will never see (thankfully), the unfortunate part is that the police deal with them on a day to day basis and can fall into the trap of thinking everyone is "bad". It is also hard to explain to normal people who don't see the worst our society has to offer that the bad guys look just like the good guys. They even claim to be good guys. Police have to treat everyone as unknown in order to stay safe and this can lead to a misconception that the police think everyone is bad.

I have been both a soldier and a cop and there is overlap but there are also areas where the two are very different. Today's soldiers are not fighting a war with a well defined enemy, and gaining community cooperation is a large part of success in today's wars this is not that far off from the police, not exactly the same but similar.
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