General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Ice baths- Rss Feed  
Moderators: k9car363, alicefoeller Reply
2014-09-01 6:03 AM


82
252525
Subject: Ice baths-
Does anyone take ice baths after a long ride/run?


2014-09-01 9:14 AM
in reply to: Jimmycolorado

User image


201
100100
Hereford, England
Subject: RE: Ice baths-
Yes. For me it works, for some it doesn't.

Depends what I'm doing the next day. I come from an athletics background. Doing a decathlon, an ice bath after day one was a must for me. The first 5 events, ending with a 400m is tough. Then to get up the next day and repeat.

I think most of the findings towards ice baths are anecdotal, and some of those point to just a psychological effect. But either way, if it's beneficial for you, do it.
2014-09-01 9:46 AM
in reply to: Eucid

Master
10208
50005000100100
Northern IL
Subject: RE: Ice baths-

Originally posted by Eucid Yes. For me it works, for some it doesn't. Depends what I'm doing the next day. I come from an athletics background. Doing a decathlon, an ice bath after day one was a must for me. The first 5 events, ending with a 400m is tough. Then to get up the next day and repeat. I think most of the findings towards ice baths are anecdotal, and some of those point to just a psychological effect. But either way, if it's beneficial for you, do it.

The question on "beneficial to you" is beneficial in what way? Your decathlon would be a great example of needing to recover as much as possible regardless of what happens to the training stimulus as all the prior training was done in building towards this event. Because the performance output on Day 2 will outweigh  picking up training benefits from Day 1, use whatever helps you feel (and do) best!

2014-09-01 9:57 AM
in reply to: brigby1

User image


201
100100
Hereford, England
Subject: RE: Ice baths-
Less DOMS (delayed onset of muscle soreness).
Better range of motion (110m hurdles being the first event on day 2, those tight hammys are a b*tch).
Feel fresher.

The first a third can probably be in a physiological and psychological areas. But either way, I'll take whatever gains, it whatever area I can.

Test it for yourself. Do a hard session (I'd probably do a brick session) one evening, and the next morning do another session. Then the following week do the same, but with an ice bath after the first session. Compare times (and how you feel) - then decide if it actually helped, or you thought it helped and performed better anyway? Then you can see if it's worth it for you.
2014-09-01 10:20 AM
in reply to: Eucid

Master
10208
50005000100100
Northern IL
Subject: RE: Ice baths-

I could be misunderstanding this, but maybe the "in what way" I posted was not quite as clear. It wasn't about the specifics of the ways it may help one feel better for the next day, but rather referring to the goals of the whole situation. Already posted are some ways that an ice bath (and some other recovery tools) may be of benefit. The knock on them is that they may also lessen the amount of training adaptation that comes from the workout. My point in the other post was that you don't care about these training adaptations during the decathlon. Not in the middle of the event. You care about the performance. The soreness from Day 1 will affect Day 2, so do whatever you can to get rid of it and have the best performance possible on Day 2. Even if it's at the expense of some training adaptation. The event is what all the training was for, so do the best you can there. Out in the actual training sessions, however, things can be valued differently. You want the highest amount of training adaptations possible, so what you're doing may change.

Examples of where a triathlete may value the recovery more would be well into a taper and right after the event. Some hard workouts would be to stay sharp, but late in the taper you also want to be well rested. The value of the performance of the day (i.e. Race Day) becomes of more value than the training stimulus. You're just making sure you can still work hard. A multi-day example that my be more like the decathlon (to an extent) would be like Rev3 Rush, with up to 5 or so supersprints over a single weekend.

2014-09-01 10:44 AM
in reply to: 0

User image


201
100100
Hereford, England
Subject: RE: Ice baths-
I was training three times a day, 5-6 days a week, so one of my training goals was to be able to get up the next day and train.

Being more tri specific, I guess it depends on how much you train I guess. If you train three times a week, quick recovery may not be necessary. But if you're a twice a day trainer, quick recovery is vital. I've only done one tri so far, and in my mini taper, I used ice baths.

I used ice baths after training for the decathlon too, but not every session. I never found it detrimental to training by using them or not using them. Competitions are different though, as generally more effort is put in, in competitions.

Edited by Eucid 2014-09-01 10:49 AM


2014-09-01 1:19 PM
in reply to: brigby1

User image

Expert
2355
20001001001002525
Madison, Wisconsin
Subject: RE: Ice baths-
Originally posted by brigby1

I could be misunderstanding this, but maybe the "in what way" I posted was not quite as clear. It wasn't about the specifics of the ways it may help one feel better for the next day, but rather referring to the goals of the whole situation. Already posted are some ways that an ice bath (and some other recovery tools) may be of benefit. The knock on them is that they may also lessen the amount of training adaptation that comes from the workout. My point in the other post was that you don't care about these training adaptations during the decathlon. Not in the middle of the event. You care about the performance. The soreness from Day 1 will affect Day 2, so do whatever you can to get rid of it and have the best performance possible on Day 2. Even if it's at the expense of some training adaptation. The event is what all the training was for, so do the best you can there. Out in the actual training sessions, however, things can be valued differently. You want the highest amount of training adaptations possible, so what you're doing may change.

Examples of where a triathlete may value the recovery more would be well into a taper and right after the event. Some hard workouts would be to stay sharp, but late in the taper you also want to be well rested. The value of the performance of the day (i.e. Race Day) becomes of more value than the training stimulus. You're just making sure you can still work hard. A multi-day example that my be more like the decathlon (to an extent) would be like Rev3 Rush, with up to 5 or so supersprints over a single weekend.




^Yup pretty much.

2014-09-01 4:53 PM
in reply to: Eucid

Master
10208
50005000100100
Northern IL
Subject: RE: Ice baths-

Originally posted by Eucid I was training three times a day, 5-6 days a week, so one of my training goals was to be able to get up the next day and train. Being more tri specific, I guess it depends on how much you train I guess. If you train three times a week, quick recovery may not be necessary. But if you're a twice a day trainer, quick recovery is vital. I've only done one tri so far, and in my mini taper, I used ice baths. I used ice baths after training for the decathlon too, but not every session. I never found it detrimental to training by using them or not using them. Competitions are different though, as generally more effort is put in, in competitions.

Well, keep in mind what you're trying to do. And that's to get in the highest amount of training adaptation you can. For many, getting in more workouts will lead to more training stress and more adaptation. But at the same time one does not automatically get the training adaptation having done the workout. It's not as simple as checking a box and getting a specified reward. Various things in the recovery process can affect the amount of adaptation from the same workout. It's not just yes/no which can complicate determining effectiveness. So one can still have less than optimal recovery and still make gains. Sometimes notable gains. I tend to stick with adjusting the workloads as opposed to using extra recovery aids. Was the decathlon for school or a team? Having been on a number of teams in a variety of sports, it's quite understandable to feel the need to recover as much as possible. You have to perform in practices there or coaches may adjust their selections. But here, the training plan should be more flexible and adapt to the individual. It should have there too, but that doesn't always happen as there can be expectations of keeping up or you're out.

2014-09-02 2:04 AM
in reply to: brigby1

User image


201
100100
Hereford, England
Subject: RE: Ice baths-
I was in the Senior Great Britain training squad for the decathlon. Before that I was competing for Senior Great Britain for the pole vault. With the pole vault I didn't have to recover for the next day to compete, but the recovery after training was still vital. So I didn't need to get picked to compete, I was good enough to get automatic spots

Yes, I also agree that the workload is best to get correct, rather than the recovery. However if the recovery can be reduced, can the workload be increased? Sensibly, obviously. The morning after a hard evening session wasn't the most intense - drills etc. But was still better to be fresher for it. For most of my athletics career I was working 1:1 with a coach, so it was pretty individual.

You say about one having less than optimal recovery and still make gains. But if there is any way to have better recovery, be it recovery drinks, ice bath, sometimes hot baths, why would one not use it?
2014-09-02 7:31 AM
in reply to: 0

Master
10208
50005000100100
Northern IL
Subject: RE: Ice baths-

With the individual things you can do, that's where you want to watch in more detail what is going on for each of them. A recovery drink is nothing more than a nice package of fuel or building material. You can do the same thing with other foods. Your body needs to refill the energy and repair & build up the areas that were worn down from the workout. Better quality here, the better things can be rebuilt. Use of something specifically labeled as a recovery drink (or recovery food) is not necessary, but giving the body the resources to make the recovery is very important.

The question is more on the other methods. And more specifically in how they may help one get to a point of being recovered. Are they helping the body work through (or process) all the fatigue more quickly like the better food does? Or are they reducing the amount that the body has to go through? In the case of the latter that would be less training adaptation as the apparent load to adapt to is smaller. Training a little less could leave one at the same point of development. And it's also where things can become tricky to see as it's still quite possible to keep making gains (as said earlier), but are the gains as much as they would have been? Remember, the gains from a workout are not just a checklist. There isn't a set amount of gain for checking off doing a workout.

For lighter sessions after a harder one, I might incorporate a longer warm-up time. Maybe some more drills to help open up the motion better. And possibly do less than I had planned if I'm dragging. Then reassess the whole situation later to see how I might want to adjust things for the next time. And I'm not actually saying to never do ice baths or recovery techniques. Just encouraging to think about the priorities and cautioning against making some things automatic after specific workouts.



Edited by brigby1 2014-09-02 7:38 AM
2014-09-02 7:57 AM
in reply to: brigby1

User image

Champion
9407
500020002000100100100100
Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia
Subject: RE: Ice baths-
I agree with Ben regarding whether or not these approaches are necessarily a good approach on a regular basis and instead trying to get training load properly dialed in is preferable. If it works for you after a race or an occasional big workout that's great but as a regular tool, I would avoid it.

There is also not a great deal of evidence to indicate the efficacy of ice baths:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23873339

Shane


2014-09-02 2:09 PM
in reply to: gsmacleod

User image


201
100100
Hereford, England
Subject: RE: Ice baths-
Oh, I agree too. I was just putting my 2 cents in for the OP regarding ice baths. They work for me, whether they work, or just I think they work, it doesn't matter.

I also mention in my original reply that most of the finding from ice baths are anecdotal.

New Thread
General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Ice baths- Rss Feed