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2014-09-20 4:33 PM
in reply to: jennifer_runs

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Subject: RE: Swim Times Slowing Dramatically

Originally posted by jennifer_runs ] But how do you explain why she is fastest on her "weak" side (not bilateral)? Erin- it sounds like that's your strong side.

 

It's not uncommon actually. people tend to breathe to their strong side. Right handed=breathe to the right. When you don't have a symmetrical stroke, the left shoulder rotates down more during the pull than the right, as you will breathe to the right and therefore keep yourself positioned better to get the breathe. So when you breathe to the left, the right arm, or strong arm, now rotates deeper and gets a better pull. So it feels a little more awkward when you breathe and you tend to not swim as straight, but bc the stronger arm now does a larger share of the work, you end up faster.



2014-09-20 6:28 PM
in reply to: tjfry

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Subject: RE: Swim Times Slowing Dramatically
Originally posted by tjfry

Originally posted by jennifer_runs ] But how do you explain why she is fastest on her "weak" side (not bilateral)? Erin- it sounds like that's your strong side.

 

It's not uncommon actually. people tend to breathe to their strong side. Right handed=breathe to the right. When you don't have a symmetrical stroke, the left shoulder rotates down more during the pull than the right, as you will breathe to the right and therefore keep yourself positioned better to get the breathe. So when you breathe to the left, the right arm, or strong arm, now rotates deeper and gets a better pull. So it feels a little more awkward when you breathe and you tend to not swim as straight, but bc the stronger arm now does a larger share of the work, you end up faster.




I was mostly being facetious.

In my mind, my strong side is the side where I'm faster, regardless of which hand I happen to write with.
2014-09-20 9:52 PM
in reply to: tjfry

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Subject: RE: Swim Times Slowing Dramatically
Definitely true for me. I think I rotate too much when I breathe, probably because breathing tends to be my limiter in the pool and I'm taking too long to do it (I have asthma, which can make it harder to get air both out an in, and the chlorine can, unfortunately, trigger it; breathing can be a struggle on days when the pool's not well-ventilated.) My pull feels a lot stronger and smoother when I breathe to the non-dominant side (left) as I'm getting a stronger pull with my right arm and probably not over-rotating--I didn't establish that bad motor pattern as a kid, so I probably actually am more efficient breathing to that side. The only issue is that breathing every three just doesn't quite feel right in terms of the amount and timing of oxygen I'm getting, nor do other partly bilateral patterns I've tried like 2-2-3. Maybe it's just what my body's used to after years of swimming--I really only feel good if I'm doing 2-2-4 on a hard distance swim. So I tend to do every 3 or 2-2-3 on those harder middle-distance repeats in training (like 100's or 200's), and fall back into my old rhythm on long stuff or in races.

I've noticed that even the pros tend to breathe mainly to one side or the other in races, so hopefully it's not necessarily a huge issue if one develops an efficient stroke. In OWS I don't have the breathing issues I do in the pool (thank goodness; it's probably one reason I enjoy the swim leg of tri so much!) so it's easier to breathe to the non-dominant side as needed if conditions or navigation demand it.

BTW AdventureBear's comment on being allergic to strength and not pulling through the stroke was very helpful. I've been dealing with some similar issues since an injury in July and I think I've managed to pinpoint the issue--I wasn't engaging and pulling through the stroke, kind of just sliding through it like the OP, because that was too painful early on. Now the injury has been healed for at least a month but I've gotten into the habit of sliding through my pull and that was slowing me down about 8-10 seconds/100m. Back to normal speed now but my fitness could still use some work! I can hit the normal splits again but need about ten seconds more rest than normal to hit them--think the muscles got lazy due to their break. Wondering if in her case fatigue rather than injury (both overall from the HIM buildup and from the increased swim yardage) may have contributed to sliding back into a less efficient but less taxing stroke.
2014-09-20 10:59 PM
in reply to: yazmaster

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Subject: RE: Swim Times Slowing Dramatically
Originally posted by yazmaster

@Adventurebear - My whole entire point is that in terms of retrun on time spent for improvement, I will estimate:

 

For the OP:

- With zero fitness improvement, but maximum technique optimization (theoretically) - <7sec/100 gained, and that's with a LOT of technique work.

- With significant fitness (arm pull/catch power) but ZERO improvement in technique - nearly unlimited improvement, and a 20sec/100 improvement to 1:50 would happen guaranteed in months, and won't plateu for a long while.




Thanks for the expanded explanation..regarding the above we can just agree to disagree. I guess we see "EVF" as 2 different things. I see it as a technique to learn, first in the air, then in still water, then moving forward while swimming.
2014-09-20 11:29 PM
in reply to: AdventureBear


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Subject: RE: Swim Times Slowing Dramatically

Yes, we can agree to disagree. 

 

I see EVF as not attainable through technique gains without significant fitness gains. I postulate that it is literally physically impossible for OP to do even a semblance of a decent EVF simply because she doesn't have the muscular endurance to do it. I actually think the pull she has is almost as good as she can hope for right now in the absence of significant muscular endurance gains. Yes, it slips in the water, but it slips because she can't maintain the force needed to anchor hard. 

 

If she were really capable say, of swimming a 1:40-5/100 with her current fitness level, and we attribute her lack of speed mainly to such a poor technical catch that her hand slips through the water, she should be swimming close to 1:40 if we put on a set of paddles for her to help her really anchor on the water. I guarantee she'll go no faster. Even if she pulls harder, her stroke rate will drop precipitously with the paddles because she lacks the M.E. to keep up the cadence and force.

 

2014-09-21 1:35 AM
in reply to: yazmaster


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Subject: RE: Swim Times Slowing Dramatically
Originally posted by yazmaster

Yes, we can agree to disagree. 

 

I see EVF as not attainable through technique gains without significant fitness gains. I postulate that it is literally physically impossible for OP to do even a semblance of a decent EVF simply because she doesn't have the muscular endurance to do it. I actually think the pull she has is almost as good as she can hope for right now in the absence of significant muscular endurance gains. Yes, it slips in the water, but it slips because she can't maintain the force needed to anchor hard. 

 

If she were really capable say, of swimming a 1:40-5/100 with her current fitness level, and we attribute her lack of speed mainly to such a poor technical catch that her hand slips through the water, she should be swimming close to 1:40 if we put on a set of paddles for her to help her really anchor on the water. I guarantee she'll go no faster. Even if she pulls harder, her stroke rate will drop precipitously with the paddles because she lacks the M.E. to keep up the cadence and force.

 




Good point. I tend to agree with you actually. Changing my stroke to have more of a decent EVF I was surprised at how much resistance there was and at how much strength was needed compared to a poor technique where your arm slips through the water. Strength is probably not quite the right word, but I do find when maintaining a good EVF, my muscles are working hard and I can feel it, especially in my lats. And it got me thinking, how weaker swimmers would manage. She needs to be using a high elbow, but I think if she was shown and her technique was fixed overnight she'd still probably be pretty slow.


2014-09-21 12:36 PM
in reply to: zedzded

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Subject: RE: Swim Times Slowing Dramatically
I really appreciate all this feedback and advice from everyone. You're all wonderful!

The consensus seems to be that I do have several things to fix technique-wise, but what I'm really lacking is a powerful pull and specifically an early vertical forearm.

Are there any drills that will put me on the right path? Or equipment I should be using? I do have paddles, but haven't been using them because my coach has not included them in my workouts.

Also, when I was faster I was riding racehorse for a living, so I had a lot more upper body muscle mass than I do now.

I should be able to get an underwater video on Tuesday.

Thanks again. This has turned into a very informative thread and it sounds like others with similar issues are also getting some beneficial feedback.
2014-09-23 1:02 PM
in reply to: erinrockrun

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Subject: RE: Swim Times Slowing Dramatically
Guys, I had a swimming breakthrough today and had to share! To those of you who brought EVF (and the fact that I had no pull to my attention,) THANK YOU. Today, I finally discovered why lats are so important in swimming. Just concentrating on getting my forearm vertical and actually pushing the water behind me using muscled strength, my whole game changed.... literally, overnight. After an entire season of swimming my 100 intervals no faster than 2:04 (closer to 2:14 these past two months) today's 100s were:

2:09 (testing the old way first)
1:52 (the new way, left side breathing)
1:49 (new way, right {awkward} side)
1:51: Bilateral
1:52: Left
1:48: Right
1:53: Bilateral
1:47: Right

Granted, I was taking a full minute rest between each 100 but I am elated right now. I never expected anything like this to happen overnight. I know it's still no speed record, but that's a substantial difference. I guess you all steered me in the right direction!

It's probably not enough time to fix my swim for my HIM Sunday, since I don't yet have the muscular endurance to sustain it, but hopefully will help a little. And now I am actually looking forward to working on this over the winter and seeing what happens. It just felt so good to be moving the water, getting a burn in the muscles, and actually swimming fast enough to be able to breathe in a little bow wave (haven't had that in over a year.)

And also, thank you Suzanne for telling me to forget about the kick and let the legs do their own thing, focusing ob the core. That was great advice!
2014-09-23 8:16 PM
in reply to: erinrockrun


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Subject: RE: Swim Times Slowing Dramatically
Originally posted by erinrockrun

Guys, I had a swimming breakthrough today and had to share! To those of you who brought EVF (and the fact that I had no pull to my attention,) THANK YOU. Today, I finally discovered why lats are so important in swimming. Just concentrating on getting my forearm vertical and actually pushing the water behind me using muscled strength, my whole game changed.... literally, overnight. After an entire season of swimming my 100 intervals no faster than 2:04 (closer to 2:14 these past two months) today's 100s were:

2:09 (testing the old way first)
1:52 (the new way, left side breathing)
1:49 (new way, right {awkward} side)
1:51: Bilateral
1:52: Left
1:48: Right
1:53: Bilateral
1:47: Right

Granted, I was taking a full minute rest between each 100 but I am elated right now. I never expected anything like this to happen overnight. I know it's still no speed record, but that's a substantial difference. I guess you all steered me in the right direction!

It's probably not enough time to fix my swim for my HIM Sunday, since I don't yet have the muscular endurance to sustain it, but hopefully will help a little. And now I am actually looking forward to working on this over the winter and seeing what happens. It just felt so good to be moving the water, getting a burn in the muscles, and actually swimming fast enough to be able to breathe in a little bow wave (haven't had that in over a year.)

And also, thank you Suzanne for telling me to forget about the kick and let the legs do their own thing, focusing ob the core. That was great advice!


Awesome good work! You'll probably find your muscles fatiguing quicker, but that's because they're actually working now as opposed to slipping through your water. It will take a while to get your technique sorted, so be patient, give it time and you'll get it
2014-09-28 8:54 PM
in reply to: erinrockrun

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Subject: RE: Swim Times Slowing Dramatically
Originally posted by erinrockrun

Guys, I had a swimming breakthrough today and had to share! To those of you who brought EVF (and the fact that I had no pull to my attention,) THANK YOU. Today, I finally discovered why lats are so important in swimming. Just concentrating on getting my forearm vertical and actually pushing the water behind me using muscled strength, my whole game changed.... literally, overnight. After an entire season of swimming my 100 intervals no faster than 2:04 (closer to 2:14 these past two months) today's 100s were:

2:09 (testing the old way first)
1:52 (the new way, left side breathing)
1:49 (new way, right {awkward} side)
1:51: Bilateral
1:52: Left
1:48: Right
1:53: Bilateral
1:47: Right

Granted, I was taking a full minute rest between each 100 but I am elated right now. I never expected anything like this to happen overnight. I know it's still no speed record, but that's a substantial difference. I guess you all steered me in the right direction!

It's probably not enough time to fix my swim for my HIM Sunday, since I don't yet have the muscular endurance to sustain it, but hopefully will help a little. And now I am actually looking forward to working on this over the winter and seeing what happens. It just felt so good to be moving the water, getting a burn in the muscles, and actually swimming fast enough to be able to breathe in a little bow wave (haven't had that in over a year.)

And also, thank you Suzanne for telling me to forget about the kick and let the legs do their own thing, focusing ob the core. That was great advice!


Hey, great job! Just to poke the bear a little bit, I'd venture to say it was 100% technique...your fitness didn't improve in just 1 session.

Just keep practicing this repeatedly, and you'll be able to sustain the proper/better form longer. But read this as well...don't pull, anchor with your new form, and rotate past...you'll be even faster...this is a nice article by Coach Darren Smith

http://www.220triathlon.com/training/swim/use-your-bodys-core-muscl...
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