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2014-09-30 11:32 AM
in reply to: 3mar

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Subject: RE: Went all out on 100m this morning
Yepp, Brooklyn. I actually go out to the Rockaways/Riis Park and battle the surf for my OW training. Sometimes it's rough man. I know it isn't Cali rough, but it's made me much OW tougher. Lake swimming feels like a bathtub to me now. We plan on returning to the Keys next summer some time and definitely plan to move down to Florida after retirement (still 15 yrs, but I'm counting already And yes, I was very nervous about boat traffic Bayside. The wife kayaked along, but I kept going as I took my life into my hands with the commotion.
If you have any degree of upper body significant muscularity wetsuits plain SUCK.


2014-09-30 12:20 PM
in reply to: 3mar


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Subject: RE: Went all out on 100m this morning

Not intending to take anything away from your great swim, but it's also likely easier to swim well in OWS as a FOP swimmer among the fish. 

 

Once you get to MOP, and even BOP, there's a lot more chaos, body contact, bad people to draft off of, and other significant limiters that you run into less often if you're off to the front. I've gone painfully from BBBOP to a bit slower than you are (took me 5 years of hard work though!) and it's night and day how much smoother it is to swim off the front surrounded by capable swimmers than it is to get stuck in the mob in the middle and back. 

2014-09-30 12:30 PM
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Subject: RE: Went all out on 100m this morning

Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by 3mar Some we're saying I'd be "dusting it up" in the MOP at best.
At 21:30 1500m (1:25/100) you will be FOP at most Olympic and HIM races. Anyone who says MOP has no idea of where AG racing is at. You will probably find you may even be more FOP the longer the distance. If you want a good comparison, take a look at axteraa's race reports. I think he is a 20min 1500m swimmer. He has alway been FOP on the swim and has developed a strong bike and run with time. He may be more your AG...not sure. He also has raced big and small events

I am a 20:00 1500m SCM swimmer - 20:00.7 to be exact, not that I'm bitter  That puts me at or very near the front of just about every local race.  The two local sprints that I did this year I was first out of the water.  I did a HIM last weekend and was 13th of 483 out of the water.  When I did IMMT two years ago I was 14th of 2200+ out of the water.  (not saying this to brag, just to give you a reference)

OP, your 21:30 1500 will place you quite high in most races, the 41/800+ that you referenced sounds about right to me, especially if you are comfortable in open water.



Edited by axteraa 2014-09-30 12:42 PM
2014-09-30 12:46 PM
in reply to: yazmaster

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Subject: RE: Went all out on 100m this morning
Originally posted by yazmaster

Not intending to take anything away from your great swim, but it's also likely easier to swim well in OWS as a FOP swimmer among the fish. 

 

Once you get to MOP, and even BOP, there's a lot more chaos, body contact, bad people to draft off of, and other significant limiters that you run into less often if you're off to the front. I've gone painfully from BBBOP to a bit slower than you are (took me 5 years of hard work though!) and it's night and day how much smoother it is to swim off the front surrounded by capable swimmers than it is to get stuck in the mob in the middle and back. 




I totally agree and I don't take it for granted at all. I'm really appreciative that I'm lucky enough not to have to deal with the true "washing machine" in mass starts. One issue I had was that there were a couple people drafting off of me (which I don't mind) but they were too close and kept grabbing my legs. I lost them after a couple hundred meters, but it seriously felt like being pawed at like you see during a zombie movie. That's also one REALLY big advantage of shaved legs covered in sunscreen, they just slid right off each time even though they were physically grabbing my legs. I'm sure it was just a natural impulse and they weren't consciously trying to hold on, but it was annoying non the less.
2014-09-30 2:18 PM
in reply to: axteraa

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Subject: RE: Went all out on 100m this morning
Originally posted by axteraa

Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by 3mar Some we're saying I'd be "dusting it up" in the MOP at best.
At 21:30 1500m (1:25/100) you will be FOP at most Olympic and HIM races. Anyone who says MOP has no idea of where AG racing is at. You will probably find you may even be more FOP the longer the distance. If you want a good comparison, take a look at axteraa's race reports. I think he is a 20min 1500m swimmer. He has alway been FOP on the swim and has developed a strong bike and run with time. He may be more your AG...not sure. He also has raced big and small events

I am a 20:00 1500m SCM swimmer - 20:00.7 to be exact, not that I'm bitter  That puts me at or very near the front of just about every local race.  The two local sprints that I did this year I was first out of the water.  I did a HIM last weekend and was 13th of 483 out of the water.  When I did IMMT two years ago I was 14th of 2200+ out of the water.  (not saying this to brag, just to give you a reference)

OP, your 21:30 1500 will place you quite high in most races, the 41/800+ that you referenced sounds about right to me, especially if you are comfortable in open water.




It's good to have that reference, thanks. By the way, how much do you train? To date, I've only been in the pool twice a week. I do one workout of about 2,700 meters that includes sets of 100s, 200s, 50s, like I did in high school, then I do a 1,500 meter swim once a week as part of a sort of time trial workout where I swim, bike and run. I've seen really consistent drops in time in my swimming, so I didn't really concern myself with adding volume, but recently decided to add a third day. Just curious what others do who may not need a ton of work. The thing is I DO need a ton of work in biking, so that's where I've focused most of my effort.
2014-09-30 2:46 PM
in reply to: 3mar

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Subject: RE: Went all out on 100m this morning
Originally posted by 3mar

Originally posted by axteraa

Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by 3mar Some we're saying I'd be "dusting it up" in the MOP at best.
At 21:30 1500m (1:25/100) you will be FOP at most Olympic and HIM races. Anyone who says MOP has no idea of where AG racing is at. You will probably find you may even be more FOP the longer the distance. If you want a good comparison, take a look at axteraa's race reports. I think he is a 20min 1500m swimmer. He has alway been FOP on the swim and has developed a strong bike and run with time. He may be more your AG...not sure. He also has raced big and small events

I am a 20:00 1500m SCM swimmer - 20:00.7 to be exact, not that I'm bitter  That puts me at or very near the front of just about every local race.  The two local sprints that I did this year I was first out of the water.  I did a HIM last weekend and was 13th of 483 out of the water.  When I did IMMT two years ago I was 14th of 2200+ out of the water.  (not saying this to brag, just to give you a reference)

OP, your 21:30 1500 will place you quite high in most races, the 41/800+ that you referenced sounds about right to me, especially if you are comfortable in open water.




It's good to have that reference, thanks. By the way, how much do you train? To date, I've only been in the pool twice a week. I do one workout of about 2,700 meters that includes sets of 100s, 200s, 50s, like I did in high school, then I do a 1,500 meter swim once a week as part of a sort of time trial workout where I swim, bike and run. I've seen really consistent drops in time in my swimming, so I didn't really concern myself with adding volume, but recently decided to add a third day. Just curious what others do who may not need a ton of work. The thing is I DO need a ton of work in biking, so that's where I've focused most of my effort.


Here's the problem with Arend...he is way too humble :-)
He will be able to give you an honest assessment of what it takes to get good on the bike.
I hate saying he was an average cyclist, but if you see his most recent RR he won his first bike race last week. He is certainly not average today.
I have seen him work his butt off on the bike for the last 2 years and anyone who says it's "easy" didn't actually do it themselves.



2014-09-30 5:56 PM
in reply to: 3mar

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Subject: RE: Went all out on 100m this morning

Originally posted by 3mar  It's good to have that reference, thanks. By the way, how much do you train? To date, I've only been in the pool twice a week. I do one workout of about 2,700 meters that includes sets of 100s, 200s, 50s, like I did in high school, then I do a 1,500 meter swim once a week as part of a sort of time trial workout where I swim, bike and run. I've seen really consistent drops in time in my swimming, so I didn't really concern myself with adding volume, but recently decided to add a third day. Just curious what others do who may not need a ton of work. The thing is I DO need a ton of work in biking, so that's where I've focused most of my effort.

Generally I am in the pool 2-3 times per week.  For me, two is ok to maintain things, three is best for staying sharp and strong.  If I was you, I would stop doing that 1500m swim every week and turn that into a workout with sets.  It will be a better use of your time in the pool IMO.  If you want to do the 1500 TT once a month or so to monitor progress, that's fine.  I think you mentioned a January HIM (Bone Island?).  I would try to get in 3 swims per week (if it doesn't take away from your bike training) and do those shorter hard intervals for the next couple of months and then as you get closer to the race, start doing some longer intervals of 300s to 500s.  

And work the bike hard!  Like Marc said, I've gone from an average cyclist to a fairly strong one (by triathlete standards at least...) over the last couple of years but it takes a lot of hard focused work.  

2014-10-01 9:11 AM
in reply to: axteraa

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Subject: RE: Went all out on 100m this morning
Originally posted by axteraa

Originally posted by 3mar  It's good to have that reference, thanks. By the way, how much do you train? To date, I've only been in the pool twice a week. I do one workout of about 2,700 meters that includes sets of 100s, 200s, 50s, like I did in high school, then I do a 1,500 meter swim once a week as part of a sort of time trial workout where I swim, bike and run. I've seen really consistent drops in time in my swimming, so I didn't really concern myself with adding volume, but recently decided to add a third day. Just curious what others do who may not need a ton of work. The thing is I DO need a ton of work in biking, so that's where I've focused most of my effort.

Generally I am in the pool 2-3 times per week.  For me, two is ok to maintain things, three is best for staying sharp and strong.  If I was you, I would stop doing that 1500m swim every week and turn that into a workout with sets.  It will be a better use of your time in the pool IMO.  If you want to do the 1500 TT once a month or so to monitor progress, that's fine.  I think you mentioned a January HIM (Bone Island?).  I would try to get in 3 swims per week (if it doesn't take away from your bike training) and do those shorter hard intervals for the next couple of months and then as you get closer to the race, start doing some longer intervals of 300s to 500s.  

And work the bike hard!  Like Marc said, I've gone from an average cyclist to a fairly strong one (by triathlete standards at least...) over the last couple of years but it takes a lot of hard focused work.  




Thanks for the advice. The TT thing is just my quirky, against-the-grain thing I like to do. Every Saturday I do a 1,500m swim/12 mile bike/3 mile run. I started doing them after having a lot of trouble switching from one sport to the next. It then turned into a way for me to take a weekly look at my progress. I've seen really steady drops on a weekly basis and will likely keep this up until it flat lines (if it ain't broke...). I will start the third swimming day however, and do the traditional short, hard intervals.

I'm doing the Naples HITS 1/2 ironman in January. I'm also doing an Olympic distance tri at the beginning of December in Key West. My biking so far has been at constant effort at different distances. So in a week I'll do a 45 miler, a 22 miler, a 12 miler and a 10 miler. All but the 45 miler include a run or a run and a swim with them. The shorter the distance, the harder I go, but I haven't done any interval work as of yet. The 22 and 10 milers are part of brick workouts. I do a 22 mile bike+ 3mile run one day and a 10 mile bike+6 mile run the other. I was thinking of starting to do intervals on those two bike legs. Does that sound like it would make sense? I'm going to start increasing the 45 miler to work up to 60-70 miles by January. Here is my current weekly workout plan:

Sunday - 45 mile bike
Monday - 7 mile run (easy-moderate)
Tuesday - 2,700m swim
Wednesday - 22 mile bike + 3 mile run
Thursday - 10 mile bike + 6 mile run
Friday - 2,700m swim
Saturday - 1,500m swim + 12 mile bike + 3 mile run

I was taking a rest day before, but now decided to add the third day of swimming in it's place. I'm going to just have a "floating" rest day, where whenever I feel I need it, I'll take it. Forcing it once a week was doing nothing but causing me to have a day full of nervous energy and anxiety.
2014-10-01 9:29 AM
in reply to: 3mar

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Subject: RE: Went all out on 100m this morning

Do you need to do all those runs as bricks?  Can you split up am/pm?  You're seeing progress on your Sat workout, but you're mostly wasting training time (not a complete waste of course, but certainly very sub-optimal).  If you prefer to keep it 'quirky & fun', that's fine.  If you want to be more competitive, find fun in the work you should be doing to achieve that.  To do so, you need more hard biking.  And a weekly 1500m straight swim isn't doing enough for your swim for the time it occupies (far better to tack it onto the bike ride).  That's where I'd start looking to adjust your weekly plan.

2014-10-01 9:39 AM
in reply to: JohnnyKay

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Subject: RE: Went all out on 100m this morning
Originally posted by JohnnyKay

Do you need to do all those runs as bricks?  Can you split up am/pm?  You're seeing progress on your Sat workout, but you're mostly wasting training time (not a complete waste of course, but certainly very sub-optimal).  If you prefer to keep it 'quirky & fun', that's fine.  If you want to be more competitive, find fun in the work you should be doing to achieve that.  To do so, you need more hard biking.  And a weekly 1500m straight swim isn't doing enough for your swim for the time it occupies (far better to tack it onto the bike ride).  That's where I'd start looking to adjust your weekly plan.




Would you recommend making one day a longer, harder ride and the other a run only day? I was only running the past 5 years and was pretty much completely burned out by the time I started triathlon three months ago. The one day a week I run only, is the day I dread the most. I guess the brick workouts are a way for me to incorporate running and not hate it.

If you were given a blank slate, maintaining my current volume, what would you recommend? I think that would help me tremendously.
2014-10-01 9:51 AM
in reply to: 3mar

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Subject: RE: Went all out on 100m this morning
Originally posted by 3mar

Originally posted by JohnnyKay

Do you need to do all those runs as bricks?  Can you split up am/pm?  You're seeing progress on your Sat workout, but you're mostly wasting training time (not a complete waste of course, but certainly very sub-optimal).  If you prefer to keep it 'quirky & fun', that's fine.  If you want to be more competitive, find fun in the work you should be doing to achieve that.  To do so, you need more hard biking.  And a weekly 1500m straight swim isn't doing enough for your swim for the time it occupies (far better to tack it onto the bike ride).  That's where I'd start looking to adjust your weekly plan.




Would you recommend making one day a longer, harder ride and the other a run only day? I was only running the past 5 years and was pretty much completely burned out by the time I started triathlon three months ago. The one day a week I run only, is the day I dread the most. I guess the brick workouts are a way for me to incorporate running and not hate it.

If you were given a blank slate, maintaining my current volume, what would you recommend? I think that would help me tremendously.


I think both you and Johnny have great points. There will come a time when you no longer dread the run only day. We do this for fun right? if the "ideal" training plan has runs that you hate, you don't have to do them by any means. Start by adding the 3rd day of swimming, keep doing your quirky-fun mini tri on Sundays till as you said, it flatlines, and then maybe you'll be more motivated/eager to add or change up some things.


2014-10-01 10:21 AM
in reply to: 3mar

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Subject: RE: Went all out on 100m this morning

I wouldn't maintain your current volume.  I'd add biking and bag the 1500m TT swim.  And if you dread the run-only day, do it with a swim. 

Sunday - 45-50+ mile bike
Monday - 2,700m swim + 3mi run
Tuesday - 22 mile bike intervals
Wednesday - 2,700m swim + 7 mile run (easy-moderate)
Thursday - 20 mile bike intervals + 3 mile run
Friday - 2,700m swim
Saturday - 30-40mi bike, mod-hard + 6 mile run

 

2014-10-01 10:31 AM
in reply to: JohnnyKay

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Subject: RE: Went all out on 100m this morning
Originally posted by JohnnyKay

I wouldn't maintain your current volume.  I'd add biking and bag the 1500m TT swim.  And if you dread the run-only day, do it with a swim. 

Sunday - 45-50+ mile bike
Monday - 2,700m swim + 3mi run
Tuesday - 22 mile bike intervals
Wednesday - 2,700m swim + 7 mile run (easy-moderate)
Thursday - 20 mile bike intervals + 3 mile run
Friday - 2,700m swim
Saturday - 30-40mi bike, mod-hard + 6 mile run

 




I think I could get into that schedule. Thanks. A couple of questions though:

-When doing intervals on bike, what is normal? I've only done them running.

-Do you intend those to be all done one after another, or are some of the combination days morning/evening workouts. To date I have done them all at the same time for two reasons. For some reason, I don't dread the run if I do it right after a bike and two, I live South of "South Florida" and it's way too hot to do afternoon or evening workouts. However, the winter is coming, so I may be able to do lighter afternoon workouts.

Thanks again. Although I may still incorporate my TT day every other week or so.
2014-10-01 10:35 AM
in reply to: yazmaster

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Subject: RE: Went all out on 100m this morning
Originally posted by yazmaster

Not intending to take anything away from your great swim, but it's also likely easier to swim well in OWS as a FOP swimmer among the fish. 

 

Once you get to MOP, and even BOP, there's a lot more chaos, body contact, bad people to draft off of, and other significant limiters that you run into less often if you're off to the front.  




This only true if you are FOP AND in the first heat of the event. Many RD's start the faster age groups towards the back. In an Oly or HIM I swim through 3 or 4 heats of BOP and MOP swimmers which is much worse than just swimming in a group that are close to the same speed.
2014-10-01 11:03 AM
in reply to: 3mar

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Subject: RE: Went all out on 100m this morning

Originally posted by 3mar
Originally posted by JohnnyKay

I wouldn't maintain your current volume.  I'd add biking and bag the 1500m TT swim.  And if you dread the run-only day, do it with a swim. 

Sunday - 45-50+ mile bike
Monday - 2,700m swim + 3mi run
Tuesday - 22 mile bike intervals
Wednesday - 2,700m swim + 7 mile run (easy-moderate)
Thursday - 20 mile bike intervals + 3 mile run
Friday - 2,700m swim
Saturday - 30-40mi bike, mod-hard + 6 mile run

 

I think I could get into that schedule. Thanks. A couple of questions though: -When doing intervals on bike, what is normal? I've only done them running. -Do you intend those to be all done one after another, or are some of the combination days morning/evening workouts. To date I have done them all at the same time for two reasons. For some reason, I don't dread the run if I do it right after a bike and two, I live South of "South Florida" and it's way too hot to do afternoon or evening workouts. However, the winter is coming, so I may be able to do lighter afternoon workouts. Thanks again. Although I may still incorporate my TT day every other week or so.

For the runs, you can do any, all, or none of them as bricks.

On the bike intervals, you want to mix it up.  Some intervals that are longer and some that are shorter.  Some really hard, some just hard.  Generally, on longer intervals, you want relatively short rest periods.  Think of those as if you were doing something like a 20 x 100 swim workout, but you don't need so many breaks on the bike (because 'form' is not much of an issue).  So, you could do 2 x 20 min with 2-5' rest between as a good threshold-type workout.  Try to keep your power steady through the whole 40'.  On shorter/harder intervals, you want more rest relative to the work period.  You can do something like 6 x 4' with equal rest, which is a good VO2max-type workout.  Again, try to keep your output steady through all 24'.  The key is to accumulate the work, so there are many ways you can play with the intervals to keep things interesting.

One way to approach would be to do about 40' of work on one of those days at a little below 'threshold' (which would be the max power output you could sustain for a full hour).  Then alternate weeks of doing another threshold-type effort and a VO2max-type effort workout on the other day.  Again, there are many ways to structure this.  The underlying principle is simple (do the work), but you need to figure out how you recover (physically & mentally) to see how much of this work you can handle week in and week out.  And how to balance it with the rest of your training and life.

2014-10-01 11:29 AM
in reply to: JohnnyKay

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Subject: RE: Went all out on 100m this morning
Originally posted by JohnnyKay

Originally posted by 3mar
Originally posted by JohnnyKay

I wouldn't maintain your current volume.  I'd add biking and bag the 1500m TT swim.  And if you dread the run-only day, do it with a swim. 

Sunday - 45-50+ mile bike
Monday - 2,700m swim + 3mi run
Tuesday - 22 mile bike intervals
Wednesday - 2,700m swim + 7 mile run (easy-moderate)
Thursday - 20 mile bike intervals + 3 mile run
Friday - 2,700m swim
Saturday - 30-40mi bike, mod-hard + 6 mile run

 

I think I could get into that schedule. Thanks. A couple of questions though: -When doing intervals on bike, what is normal? I've only done them running. -Do you intend those to be all done one after another, or are some of the combination days morning/evening workouts. To date I have done them all at the same time for two reasons. For some reason, I don't dread the run if I do it right after a bike and two, I live South of "South Florida" and it's way too hot to do afternoon or evening workouts. However, the winter is coming, so I may be able to do lighter afternoon workouts. Thanks again. Although I may still incorporate my TT day every other week or so.

For the runs, you can do any, all, or none of them as bricks.

On the bike intervals, you want to mix it up.  Some intervals that are longer and some that are shorter.  Some really hard, some just hard.  Generally, on longer intervals, you want relatively short rest periods.  Think of those as if you were doing something like a 20 x 100 swim workout, but you don't need so many breaks on the bike (because 'form' is not much of an issue).  So, you could do 2 x 20 min with 2-5' rest between as a good threshold-type workout.  Try to keep your power steady through the whole 40'.  On shorter/harder intervals, you want more rest relative to the work period.  You can do something like 6 x 4' with equal rest, which is a good VO2max-type workout.  Again, try to keep your output steady through all 24'.  The key is to accumulate the work, so there are many ways you can play with the intervals to keep things interesting.

One way to approach would be to do about 40' of work on one of those days at a little below 'threshold' (which would be the max power output you could sustain for a full hour).  Then alternate weeks of doing another threshold-type effort and a VO2max-type effort workout on the other day.  Again, there are many ways to structure this.  The underlying principle is simple (do the work), but you need to figure out how you recover (physically & mentally) to see how much of this work you can handle week in and week out.  And how to balance it with the rest of your training and life.




I appreciate the help. I'm going to give this a shot for October. I'll just schedule one or two TT days in there too keep my finger on the pulse.


2014-10-01 11:30 AM
in reply to: AdventureBear

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Subject: RE: Went all out on 100m this morning
Originally posted by AdventureBear

Originally posted by 3mar

Originally posted by JohnnyKay

Do you need to do all those runs as bricks?  Can you split up am/pm?  You're seeing progress on your Sat workout, but you're mostly wasting training time (not a complete waste of course, but certainly very sub-optimal).  If you prefer to keep it 'quirky & fun', that's fine.  If you want to be more competitive, find fun in the work you should be doing to achieve that.  To do so, you need more hard biking.  And a weekly 1500m straight swim isn't doing enough for your swim for the time it occupies (far better to tack it onto the bike ride).  That's where I'd start looking to adjust your weekly plan.




Would you recommend making one day a longer, harder ride and the other a run only day? I was only running the past 5 years and was pretty much completely burned out by the time I started triathlon three months ago. The one day a week I run only, is the day I dread the most. I guess the brick workouts are a way for me to incorporate running and not hate it.

If you were given a blank slate, maintaining my current volume, what would you recommend? I think that would help me tremendously.


I think both you and Johnny have great points. There will come a time when you no longer dread the run only day. We do this for fun right? if the "ideal" training plan has runs that you hate, you don't have to do them by any means. Start by adding the 3rd day of swimming, keep doing your quirky-fun mini tri on Sundays till as you said, it flatlines, and then maybe you'll be more motivated/eager to add or change up some things.


That's a really good point. I think I'm going to switch up my schedule a bit as recommended, but maintain a couple of the mini-tri sessions in there. Seeing my time drop on those is a big part of what keeps me motivated, so I don't want to lose that carrot.
2014-10-02 8:41 AM
in reply to: JohnnyKay

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Subject: RE: Went all out on 100m this morning
Originally posted by JohnnyKay

Originally posted by 3mar
Originally posted by JohnnyKay

I wouldn't maintain your current volume.  I'd add biking and bag the 1500m TT swim.  And if you dread the run-only day, do it with a swim. 

Sunday - 45-50+ mile bike
Monday - 2,700m swim + 3mi run
Tuesday - 22 mile bike intervals
Wednesday - 2,700m swim + 7 mile run (easy-moderate)
Thursday - 20 mile bike intervals + 3 mile run
Friday - 2,700m swim
Saturday - 30-40mi bike, mod-hard + 6 mile run

 

I think I could get into that schedule. Thanks. A couple of questions though: -When doing intervals on bike, what is normal? I've only done them running. -Do you intend those to be all done one after another, or are some of the combination days morning/evening workouts. To date I have done them all at the same time for two reasons. For some reason, I don't dread the run if I do it right after a bike and two, I live South of "South Florida" and it's way too hot to do afternoon or evening workouts. However, the winter is coming, so I may be able to do lighter afternoon workouts. Thanks again. Although I may still incorporate my TT day every other week or so.

For the runs, you can do any, all, or none of them as bricks.

On the bike intervals, you want to mix it up.  Some intervals that are longer and some that are shorter.  Some really hard, some just hard.  Generally, on longer intervals, you want relatively short rest periods.  Think of those as if you were doing something like a 20 x 100 swim workout, but you don't need so many breaks on the bike (because 'form' is not much of an issue).  So, you could do 2 x 20 min with 2-5' rest between as a good threshold-type workout.  Try to keep your power steady through the whole 40'.  On shorter/harder intervals, you want more rest relative to the work period.  You can do something like 6 x 4' with equal rest, which is a good VO2max-type workout.  Again, try to keep your output steady through all 24'.  The key is to accumulate the work, so there are many ways you can play with the intervals to keep things interesting.

One way to approach would be to do about 40' of work on one of those days at a little below 'threshold' (which would be the max power output you could sustain for a full hour).  Then alternate weeks of doing another threshold-type effort and a VO2max-type effort workout on the other day.  Again, there are many ways to structure this.  The underlying principle is simple (do the work), but you need to figure out how you recover (physically & mentally) to see how much of this work you can handle week in and week out.  And how to balance it with the rest of your training and life.




I tried my first interval workout this morning on the bike. I did them on 1 mile, since that is when my watch tones and I wanted something easy to go off of. I ended up doing 9 total with a 2 mile warm and and 3 mile cool down. I got a tail wind for my last couple of miles, so there is an overall jump in speed there, but other than that, I think I maintained some pretty good consistency. I went pretty darn hard on all my intervals. VO2 Max, threshold...I don't know. I really never understood that stuff. I was breathing really heavy and was pretty gassed at the end of each one, but had enough left over to maintain the same effort for each....so, whatever that is. My rest speed was around 17.5-18.5 mph with my interval speed ranging from 22.5-25 mph. So does that seem like a reasonable gap? Do 1 mile intervals make sense? Does this number of intervals make sense? This is my first shot at it, so I just sort of winged it. Here is the graph from my garmin.



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2014-10-02 10:48 AM
in reply to: 3mar

Master
10208
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Northern IL
Subject: RE: Went all out on 100m this morning

Originally posted by 3mar
Originally posted by JohnnyKay

Originally posted by 3mar
Originally posted by JohnnyKay

I wouldn't maintain your current volume.  I'd add biking and bag the 1500m TT swim.  And if you dread the run-only day, do it with a swim. 

Sunday - 45-50+ mile bike
Monday - 2,700m swim + 3mi run
Tuesday - 22 mile bike intervals
Wednesday - 2,700m swim + 7 mile run (easy-moderate)
Thursday - 20 mile bike intervals + 3 mile run
Friday - 2,700m swim
Saturday - 30-40mi bike, mod-hard + 6 mile run

 

I think I could get into that schedule. Thanks. A couple of questions though: -When doing intervals on bike, what is normal? I've only done them running. -Do you intend those to be all done one after another, or are some of the combination days morning/evening workouts. To date I have done them all at the same time for two reasons. For some reason, I don't dread the run if I do it right after a bike and two, I live South of "South Florida" and it's way too hot to do afternoon or evening workouts. However, the winter is coming, so I may be able to do lighter afternoon workouts. Thanks again. Although I may still incorporate my TT day every other week or so.

For the runs, you can do any, all, or none of them as bricks.

On the bike intervals, you want to mix it up.  Some intervals that are longer and some that are shorter.  Some really hard, some just hard.  Generally, on longer intervals, you want relatively short rest periods.  Think of those as if you were doing something like a 20 x 100 swim workout, but you don't need so many breaks on the bike (because 'form' is not much of an issue).  So, you could do 2 x 20 min with 2-5' rest between as a good threshold-type workout.  Try to keep your power steady through the whole 40'.  On shorter/harder intervals, you want more rest relative to the work period.  You can do something like 6 x 4' with equal rest, which is a good VO2max-type workout.  Again, try to keep your output steady through all 24'.  The key is to accumulate the work, so there are many ways you can play with the intervals to keep things interesting.

One way to approach would be to do about 40' of work on one of those days at a little below 'threshold' (which would be the max power output you could sustain for a full hour).  Then alternate weeks of doing another threshold-type effort and a VO2max-type effort workout on the other day.  Again, there are many ways to structure this.  The underlying principle is simple (do the work), but you need to figure out how you recover (physically & mentally) to see how much of this work you can handle week in and week out.  And how to balance it with the rest of your training and life.

I tried my first interval workout this morning on the bike. I did them on 1 mile, since that is when my watch tones and I wanted something easy to go off of. I ended up doing 9 total with a 2 mile warm and and 3 mile cool down. I got a tail wind for my last couple of miles, so there is an overall jump in speed there, but other than that, I think I maintained some pretty good consistency. I went pretty darn hard on all my intervals. VO2 Max, threshold...I don't know. I really never understood that stuff. I was breathing really heavy and was pretty gassed at the end of each one, but had enough left over to maintain the same effort for each....so, whatever that is. My rest speed was around 17.5-18.5 mph with my interval speed ranging from 22.5-25 mph. So does that seem like a reasonable gap? Do 1 mile intervals make sense? Does this number of intervals make sense? This is my first shot at it, so I just sort of winged it. Here is the graph from my garmin.

Take a look at the times that John posted earlier and see how well that matches up. "1 mile" isn't necessarily that relevant, but that these are probably taking you 2:25-2:45 or so at those speeds is. I'd try to find something a little longer if possible. Like in the 3-5 minute range (hence the previous 6 x 4' suggestion). It is ok to set these up as a distance, but do watch the time that it takes as that is the important part. Having a set spot to do intervals like that can be helpful so long as it's something that is consistent and fairly repeatable. Taking a few seconds longer or shorter isn't really *that* big of a deal, so long as the duration still stays about what you intended at that effort.

Also, do you have anywhere where you can go at least like 3 miles and maybe up to 7 or so? That's about what the bigger intervals would be. What do you have assist in determining effort? Haven't seen power at all, so probably not. But heart rate? Effort also matters in executing these well. Fortunately you'll be able to improve just by doing any of this just by going hard, but you will want to figure out more specifics on how hard to go eventually. The speed can kind of work if the conditions are similar. At least similar on the day so you can tell if you're pacing steady throughout the workout. From day to day it's tough to ask though as wind makes a big difference. 22.5-25 mph is a rather big difference in power output for me if the conditions were identical. Pacing would not have been that steady. But wind changes can easily make that much difference with a steady power output.

And as for how hard, the shorter intervals (a few minutes long), turn yourself inside out on them. These are well above the pace of any tri. The bigger ones aren't quite that hard, but are still going to burn quite a bit. Try to manage at least what you do in a sprint tri. Hard enough that you'll want to be done before time is up. This is just a starting point, you'll learn how to define more as you go and what works better for you.

2014-10-02 3:09 PM
in reply to: 3mar

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Extreme Veteran
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Subject: RE: Went all out on 100m this morning


Is training with a HRM an option ?

a) there is a plan on BT done by a guy named Jorge a few years ago. I think it's about a 15 week plan. It is really good and could be easily modified for HIM distance. It can be done by Power or HR I believe

b) if you figure out your HR, you could use it to properly pace the HIM

If does start of working VO2max, slowly to threshold and can easily be modified to build to some long HIM type rides.

I requires testing now and then to establish LTHR and zones.

If you are interested we could provide more info.
2014-10-03 8:49 AM
in reply to: brigby1

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1502
1000500
Katy, Texas
Subject: RE: Went all out on 100m this morning
Originally posted by brigby1

Originally posted by 3mar
Originally posted by JohnnyKay

Originally posted by 3mar
Originally posted by JohnnyKay

I wouldn't maintain your current volume.  I'd add biking and bag the 1500m TT swim.  And if you dread the run-only day, do it with a swim. 

Sunday - 45-50+ mile bike
Monday - 2,700m swim + 3mi run
Tuesday - 22 mile bike intervals
Wednesday - 2,700m swim + 7 mile run (easy-moderate)
Thursday - 20 mile bike intervals + 3 mile run
Friday - 2,700m swim
Saturday - 30-40mi bike, mod-hard + 6 mile run

 

I think I could get into that schedule. Thanks. A couple of questions though: -When doing intervals on bike, what is normal? I've only done them running. -Do you intend those to be all done one after another, or are some of the combination days morning/evening workouts. To date I have done them all at the same time for two reasons. For some reason, I don't dread the run if I do it right after a bike and two, I live South of "South Florida" and it's way too hot to do afternoon or evening workouts. However, the winter is coming, so I may be able to do lighter afternoon workouts. Thanks again. Although I may still incorporate my TT day every other week or so.

For the runs, you can do any, all, or none of them as bricks.

On the bike intervals, you want to mix it up.  Some intervals that are longer and some that are shorter.  Some really hard, some just hard.  Generally, on longer intervals, you want relatively short rest periods.  Think of those as if you were doing something like a 20 x 100 swim workout, but you don't need so many breaks on the bike (because 'form' is not much of an issue).  So, you could do 2 x 20 min with 2-5' rest between as a good threshold-type workout.  Try to keep your power steady through the whole 40'.  On shorter/harder intervals, you want more rest relative to the work period.  You can do something like 6 x 4' with equal rest, which is a good VO2max-type workout.  Again, try to keep your output steady through all 24'.  The key is to accumulate the work, so there are many ways you can play with the intervals to keep things interesting.

One way to approach would be to do about 40' of work on one of those days at a little below 'threshold' (which would be the max power output you could sustain for a full hour).  Then alternate weeks of doing another threshold-type effort and a VO2max-type effort workout on the other day.  Again, there are many ways to structure this.  The underlying principle is simple (do the work), but you need to figure out how you recover (physically & mentally) to see how much of this work you can handle week in and week out.  And how to balance it with the rest of your training and life.

I tried my first interval workout this morning on the bike. I did them on 1 mile, since that is when my watch tones and I wanted something easy to go off of. I ended up doing 9 total with a 2 mile warm and and 3 mile cool down. I got a tail wind for my last couple of miles, so there is an overall jump in speed there, but other than that, I think I maintained some pretty good consistency. I went pretty darn hard on all my intervals. VO2 Max, threshold...I don't know. I really never understood that stuff. I was breathing really heavy and was pretty gassed at the end of each one, but had enough left over to maintain the same effort for each....so, whatever that is. My rest speed was around 17.5-18.5 mph with my interval speed ranging from 22.5-25 mph. So does that seem like a reasonable gap? Do 1 mile intervals make sense? Does this number of intervals make sense? This is my first shot at it, so I just sort of winged it. Here is the graph from my garmin.

Take a look at the times that John posted earlier and see how well that matches up. "1 mile" isn't necessarily that relevant, but that these are probably taking you 2:25-2:45 or so at those speeds is. I'd try to find something a little longer if possible. Like in the 3-5 minute range (hence the previous 6 x 4' suggestion). It is ok to set these up as a distance, but do watch the time that it takes as that is the important part. Having a set spot to do intervals like that can be helpful so long as it's something that is consistent and fairly repeatable. Taking a few seconds longer or shorter isn't really *that* big of a deal, so long as the duration still stays about what you intended at that effort.

Also, do you have anywhere where you can go at least like 3 miles and maybe up to 7 or so? That's about what the bigger intervals would be. What do you have assist in determining effort? Haven't seen power at all, so probably not. But heart rate? Effort also matters in executing these well. Fortunately you'll be able to improve just by doing any of this just by going hard, but you will want to figure out more specifics on how hard to go eventually. The speed can kind of work if the conditions are similar. At least similar on the day so you can tell if you're pacing steady throughout the workout. From day to day it's tough to ask though as wind makes a big difference. 22.5-25 mph is a rather big difference in power output for me if the conditions were identical. Pacing would not have been that steady. But wind changes can easily make that much difference with a steady power output.

And as for how hard, the shorter intervals (a few minutes long), turn yourself inside out on them. These are well above the pace of any tri. The bigger ones aren't quite that hard, but are still going to burn quite a bit. Try to manage at least what you do in a sprint tri. Hard enough that you'll want to be done before time is up. This is just a starting point, you'll learn how to define more as you go and what works better for you.




Since I was using a watch, I didn't want to stare at it the whole time and it was just easiest to go off the tones. I can set it for different interval workouts though. I'll try that for the next one.


2014-10-03 8:51 AM
in reply to: marcag

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1502
1000500
Katy, Texas
Subject: RE: Went all out on 100m this morning
Originally posted by marcag



Is training with a HRM an option ?

a) there is a plan on BT done by a guy named Jorge a few years ago. I think it's about a 15 week plan. It is really good and could be easily modified for HIM distance. It can be done by Power or HR I believe

b) if you figure out your HR, you could use it to properly pace the HIM

If does start of working VO2max, slowly to threshold and can easily be modified to build to some long HIM type rides.

I requires testing now and then to establish LTHR and zones.

If you are interested we could provide more info.


I have a heart rate monitor somewhere but I've never used it. I agree though that in order to properly pace for a HIM and IM I'm going to need something. A power meter would be awesome, but I don't think it's in the cards right now. I've never used heart rate, so I wouldn't even know what I'm looking at. I'll see if I can dig it up.
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