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2014-11-04 5:25 AM

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Subject: trainer road question on accuracy.
I do not have a power meter but want to try using virtual power to add some quality to my trainer rides and I am about to sign up for trainer road but just wanted to ask a question to the group to get an unbiased answer.

I have learned from their website that they use the speed sensor on the bike to calculate virtual power.

My concern is that we all know how inaccurate speed is on a trainer ( tire tension etc) and now they are using it for this program. Because of tire tension I have a hard time even keeping my speed at 17-18 mph on the trainer and I can get to 25 or so on flat ground on the road.

I am not expecting it to be as accurate as a power meter but I would think the values for power will be exponentially smaller .

Any thoughts on this? Do they take that into account? Worrying about nothing?

Since it is pretty cheap and most people without a power meter swear by it i will probably uses it anyway but would like some insight before I take the plunge

Thanks


2014-11-04 7:06 AM
in reply to: 0

Master
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Memphis, TN
Subject: RE: trainer road question on accuracy.
They also take into account the power curve on your particular trainer to calculate the power numbers.

When I took classes on a computrainer my numbers were fairly close. It might be off by a little but it is something you can use for training.

I use it and I love it. Lots of different workouts and training plans means there are no excuses for you this winter to not stay in bike shape



Edited by Jtiger 2014-11-04 7:07 AM
2014-11-04 7:14 AM
in reply to: FELTGood

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Subject: RE: trainer road question on accuracy.

Sounds like you know going in that it's not all that accurate when compared to an actual power meter but you're looking for consistent training measures.  Same tire inflation and same wheel tension/resistance should yield consistent measurements.

That stated, it's still an algorithm based on what's basically a made up number (speed on the trainer) so the "garbage in, garbage out" philosophy still holds true as far as the numbers are concerned.  If you go in operating on the theory that the numbers are more than likely crap but it's consistent crap than you can train effectively with TrainerRoad's Virtual Power.

I still think HR and RPE trump virtual power numbers but you can do all three.  Add a HR monitor with the TR VP and you have a pretty good training system for just a few bucks. 

2014-11-04 7:19 AM
in reply to: FELTGood

Master
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Subject: RE: trainer road question on accuracy.

The trainers have a resistance curve that relates to speed. The faster you go, the higher the resistance is. That's how they use speed. They don't try to relate it to outdoors. The accuracy from the curve can be questionable, but you can help the consistency to an extent by keeping the tire pressure the same and the tension of the resistance unit the same every time. Having the accuracy too would be better still, but if can at least keep the consistency you can keep track of progress and work where you intend to in regards to intensity.

2014-11-04 7:39 AM
in reply to: brigby1

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Subject: RE: trainer road question on accuracy.
I think sometimes we can fall into paralysis by analysis when it comes to using these type of "power" measures on a trainer. As mentioned, as long as you are not trying to make the number relevant to road riding it should be pretty simple. Do a test, get a number, plug that number into your plan, repeat. Maybe I am thinking incorrectly but that is what I am doing with my "power" trainer plan for the winter.
2014-11-04 9:07 AM
in reply to: FELTGood

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Subject: RE: trainer road question on accuracy.

just air your tires up to the same PSI and turn the knob for the trainer wheel the same number of times every time you use it and you will be fine.  i used virtual power for a while before getting a powertap and it worked great for me.  don't worry about speed either, as long as you set up the trainer pretty close to the same way each time it doesn't make a difference; you already know that the power numbers are "virtual" so don't take them positively or negatively, just a baseline for you to work from that doesn't correlate to anyone else's numbers.  when i got my powertap my real FTP was about 30 watts higher than my virtual power FTP because of how much tension i was setting on trainer, which caused my "speed" to be slower and give a lower power value, but again that doesn't matter because you can't take virtual power out on the road or use it for pacing during a race; it's just for the trainer. 



2014-11-04 9:38 AM
in reply to: GMAN 19030

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Subject: RE: trainer road question on accuracy.

Originally posted by GMAN 19030

Sounds like you know going in that it's not all that accurate when compared to an actual power meter but you're looking for consistent training measures.  Same tire inflation and same wheel tension/resistance should yield consistent measurements.

That stated, it's still an algorithm based on what's basically a made up number (speed on the trainer) so the "garbage in, garbage out" philosophy still holds true as far as the numbers are concerned.  If you go in operating on the theory that the numbers are more than likely crap but it's consistent crap than you can train effectively with TrainerRoad's Virtual Power.

I still think HR and RPE trump virtual power numbers but you can do all three.  Add a HR monitor with the TR VP and you have a pretty good training system for just a few bucks. 

Having trained by HR for a few years before starting TR I disagree with that.  It wasn't until I tried the VP that I realized inefficient my efforts were on shorter intervals.  

Having said that, I did a few rides with a borrowed powertap wheel before I decided to trust the VP reading.  

2014-11-04 10:05 AM
in reply to: msteiner

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Subject: RE: trainer road question on accuracy.

I've been using TR for about three years now.  I'm "lucky" in that my indoor speed numbers on my Kurt Kinetic Road Machine are pretty close to what I can match outdoors and "feel" right (especially through the important training speeds of 18-22 mph).  It doesn't work that way for most people (I'm borderline Clydesdale).

As others have said, Trainer Road's key is the consistency of your trainer (the power curve) and the variables you can control (psi and turns of the wheel, more or less consistent temp, etc.).  Do the 8 or 20 minute test, accept the virtual FTP, and have at it.

2014-11-04 10:08 AM
in reply to: FELTGood

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Subject: RE: trainer road question on accuracy.

Nothing to worry about as long as you are consistent with the setup. I've been using VP successfully for 5 years.

If using a Kurt Kinetic fluid trainer its been stated that the "calibration" is to have about a 13.5-14 sec Spindown from 20mph to 0mph (wheel stops spinning) after ~10' of warm-up.

 

2014-11-04 12:21 PM
in reply to: GMAN 19030

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Subject: RE: trainer road question on accuracy.
Originally posted by GMAN 19030

Sounds like you know going in that it's not all that accurate when compared to an actual power meter but you're looking for consistent training measures.  Same tire inflation and same wheel tension/resistance should yield consistent measurements.

That stated, it's still an algorithm based on what's basically a made up number (speed on the trainer) so the "garbage in, garbage out" philosophy still holds true as far as the numbers are concerned.  If you go in operating on the theory that the numbers are more than likely crap but it's consistent crap than you can train effectively with TrainerRoad's Virtual Power.

I still think HR and RPE trump virtual power numbers but you can do all three.  Add a HR monitor with the TR VP and you have a pretty good training system for just a few bucks. 




Another thing to consider. I don't think all VP trainers are the same.

Some, like the KK were designed with a specific power/speed relationship. Others were simply someone got on it with a PM, pedalled, got a power/speed number, plotted it and came up with an equation.

A couple of times I tried a KK with a PT and they tracked quite well. If the PT said 200 watts and the KK said 230, if I did 80% of that 200 on the PT, the LL showed 80% of 233. Since training with power is mostly based on a % of FTP, it works quite well. IF you keep the resistance of the tire consistent with when you test.

I am not sure all trainers would have tracked equally well.
2014-11-05 7:18 AM
in reply to: msteiner

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Subject: RE: trainer road question on accuracy.

Originally posted by msteiner

Originally posted by GMAN 19030

Sounds like you know going in that it's not all that accurate when compared to an actual power meter but you're looking for consistent training measures.  Same tire inflation and same wheel tension/resistance should yield consistent measurements.

That stated, it's still an algorithm based on what's basically a made up number (speed on the trainer) so the "garbage in, garbage out" philosophy still holds true as far as the numbers are concerned.  If you go in operating on the theory that the numbers are more than likely crap but it's consistent crap than you can train effectively with TrainerRoad's Virtual Power.

I still think HR and RPE trump virtual power numbers but you can do all three.  Add a HR monitor with the TR VP and you have a pretty good training system for just a few bucks. 

Having trained by HR for a few years before starting TR I disagree with that.  It wasn't until I tried the VP that I realized inefficient my efforts were on shorter intervals.  

Having said that, I did a few rides with a borrowed powertap wheel before I decided to trust the VP reading.  

I guess I should have expounded on my comment a little more.  The reason I stated that I think HR and RPE trump virtual power numbers is because the VP numbers cannot be used outside.  So you'd still want some kind of baseline to gauge your outdoor efforts.  If you can correlate your indoor VP number with a HR or RPE then you can replicate (for the most part) that effort outside with HR/RPE.



2014-11-05 9:38 AM
in reply to: GMAN 19030

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Extreme Veteran
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Subject: RE: trainer road question on accuracy.

Originally posted by GMAN 19030

Originally posted by msteiner

Originally posted by GMAN 19030

Sounds like you know going in that it's not all that accurate when compared to an actual power meter but you're looking for consistent training measures.  Same tire inflation and same wheel tension/resistance should yield consistent measurements.

That stated, it's still an algorithm based on what's basically a made up number (speed on the trainer) so the "garbage in, garbage out" philosophy still holds true as far as the numbers are concerned.  If you go in operating on the theory that the numbers are more than likely crap but it's consistent crap than you can train effectively with TrainerRoad's Virtual Power.

I still think HR and RPE trump virtual power numbers but you can do all three.  Add a HR monitor with the TR VP and you have a pretty good training system for just a few bucks. 

Having trained by HR for a few years before starting TR I disagree with that.  It wasn't until I tried the VP that I realized inefficient my efforts were on shorter intervals.  

Having said that, I did a few rides with a borrowed powertap wheel before I decided to trust the VP reading.  

I guess I should have expounded on my comment a little more.  The reason I stated that I think HR and RPE trump virtual power numbers is because the VP numbers cannot be used outside.  So you'd still want some kind of baseline to gauge your outdoor efforts.  If you can correlate your indoor VP number with a HR or RPE then you can replicate (for the most part) that effort outside with HR/RPE.

I agree with that completely.

2014-11-05 10:01 AM
in reply to: msteiner

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Subject: RE: trainer road question on accuracy.
Trainer road is going to precise but not accurate. So long as tire PSI and tension remain the same the virtual power should be very repeatable. Whats most important (IMHO) is precision as this will allow you to measure improvement over time. The fact that you see 200W on Trainer road vs 210W on a power meter is kind of irrelevant so long as you are growing that number. I would LOVE to get actual power measurement on a power meter but for now Trainer road and virtual power is good enough for me.
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