General Discussion Triathlon Talk » any way to develop balanced muscles running on treadmill? Rss Feed  
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2014-11-18 3:24 PM

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Subject: any way to develop balanced muscles running on treadmill?
I've read that you can put a 1% incline to to try get the same energy burn and that's what I've been doing all this time. but I've just ran a marathon (still fairly new to running and tri so its kinda a big deal it was the first marathon after I actually started traininig) and while I've finished in a decent time (4:08) from the very beginning I've felt just how much more my quads had to work compared to treadmill. so while realizing you cannot fully substitute road running with treadmill I was wondering if there are any other tricks that can develop more balanced muscles in the leg. would increasing the incline more help or will it activate muscles in a totally different way? I'm kinda stuck with treadmill during the lunch break for my training at the moment so any ideas on how to make it as comparable as possible to road are appreciated


2014-11-18 4:11 PM
in reply to: woosh

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Subject: RE: any way to develop balanced muscles running on treadmill?

Originally posted by woosh I've read that you can put a 1% incline to to try get the same energy burn and that's what I've been doing all this time. but I've just ran a marathon (still fairly new to running and tri so its kinda a big deal it was the first marathon after I actually started traininig) and while I've finished in a decent time (4:08) from the very beginning I've felt just how much more my quads had to work compared to treadmill. so while realizing you cannot fully substitute road running with treadmill I was wondering if there are any other tricks that can develop more balanced muscles in the leg. would increasing the incline more help or will it activate muscles in a totally different way? I'm kinda stuck with treadmill during the lunch break for my training at the moment so any ideas on how to make it as comparable as possible to road are appreciated

I had this question a few years ago and found this article (or one similar) which I thought was very insightful
http://runnersconnect.net/running-training-articles/treadmill-running-easier/

What I got from it was that it's not the incline of the treadmill so much as it is how you run on the treadmill that effects your joints and muscles.

I was in a situation where I was training for an early season marathon almost exclusively on the treadmill including several multi-hour runs.  I would sometimes get joint pain or weird muscle pains and started digging for a solution.  What I discovered was I simply needed to lengthen my stride (which was my normal outdoor stride) and ensure that I was heal striking (like I do outside) and all of a sudden everything worked perfectly.

So, I still run at a zero incline, but I have a very natural stride that is unperceived different from my outside stride and I can't tell the difference at all.  I know I'm in the minority, but I actually prefer running on the treadmill because of the controlled climate and TV's.  Not to mention the occasional pace booty that I can keep up with inside the gym :-)

2014-11-18 4:26 PM
in reply to: woosh

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Subject: RE: any way to develop balanced muscles running on treadmill?
Originally posted by woosh

I've read that you can put a 1% incline to to try get the same energy burn and that's what I've been doing all this time. but I've just ran a marathon (still fairly new to running and tri so its kinda a big deal it was the first marathon after I actually started traininig) and while I've finished in a decent time (4:08) from the very beginning I've felt just how much more my quads had to work compared to treadmill. so while realizing you cannot fully substitute road running with treadmill I was wondering if there are any other tricks that can develop more balanced muscles in the leg. would increasing the incline more help or will it activate muscles in a totally different way? I'm kinda stuck with treadmill during the lunch break for my training at the moment so any ideas on how to make it as comparable as possible to road are appreciated


I" would interpret this as a sign that you're overelying on your quads in outdoor running. Perhaps excessive knee bend? I would worry less about making the treadmill feel like the outside than making outside feel as "light" as the treadmill. Have you ever seen yourself run? Can someone grab some video of you outside?
2014-11-18 5:14 PM
in reply to: tuwood

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Subject: RE: any way to develop balanced muscles running on treadmill?
thanks Tony! a very interesting read indeed. provides for some food for thought and gives some angles of attack to the problem. funny thing is most of what they discuss is exactly what it felt like to me (shorter stride, more leaning, etc) but it was just so comfortable that it never occurred to me to to switch to something that feels more like road. So I might have hit gold with your post and article with regards to my treadmill running! thanks a lot!

I also enjoy the softness and consistency of treadmill. allows me to spend more of my $20 bill of attention on what happens within my body when I run. outdoors are awesome for playtime
2014-11-18 5:23 PM
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Subject: RE: any way to develop balanced muscles running on treadmill?
Suzanne,

I never had any formal running coaching so hard to tell whether I'm overusing quads on the road or not using enough on treadmill I'm coming from a "tai chi"-like approach and there emphasis is on letting quads expand so in a sense I'm trying to minimize quad use and actually after the run quads is always almost the only part that never really gets sore while everything else is hurting. so I wouldn't say I'm overusing quads on the road it just feels like I'm using them more than on the treadmill.

I like your point about trying to make treadmill feel like road and that's exactly what I was trying to do during the marathon but since the surface does move on the treadmill I doubt making road as light as treadmill is possible hence my switch in thinking trying to get treadmill feel like road.

I haven't seen myself run and don't have a video of myself running yet. I just picked up running 3 months ago so only lately feel more or less serious about it. It's a great idea though, I'll try to grab a video both on treadmill and on road one of these days and post it here.

thanks again!

PS actually I somewhat take my statement about quads back. right after the run and the day of the run everything but quads hurts but the following few days everything else subsides and it's actually quads that feel funny for a while, although never as bad as the rest of it on the day of the run

Edited by woosh 2014-11-18 5:28 PM
2014-11-18 6:55 PM
in reply to: woosh

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Subject: RE: any way to develop balanced muscles running on treadmill?
Originally posted by woosh

Suzanne,

I never had any formal running coaching so hard to tell whether I'm overusing quads on the road or not using enough on treadmill I'm coming from a "tai chi"-like approach and there emphasis is on letting quads expand so in a sense I'm trying to minimize quad use and actually after the run quads is always almost the only part that never really gets sore while everything else is hurting. so I wouldn't say I'm overusing quads on the road it just feels like I'm using them more than on the treadmill.

I like your point about trying to make treadmill feel like road and that's exactly what I was trying to do during the marathon but since the surface does move on the treadmill I doubt making road as light as treadmill is possible hence my switch in thinking trying to get treadmill feel like road.

I haven't seen myself run and don't have a video of myself running yet. I just picked up running 3 months ago so only lately feel more or less serious about it. It's a great idea though, I'll try to grab a video both on treadmill and on road one of these days and post it here.

thanks again!

PS actually I somewhat take my statement about quads back. right after the run and the day of the run everything but quads hurts but the following few days everything else subsides and it's actually quads that feel funny for a while, although never as bad as the rest of it on the day of the run


I guess I misread your first post? It sounds like you are taking a good approach in being mindful and learning more and reading.


2014-11-18 8:47 PM
in reply to: woosh


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Subject: RE: any way to develop balanced muscles running on treadmill?
Originally posted by woosh

I've read that you can put a 1% incline to to try get the same energy burn and that's what I've been doing all this time. but I've just ran a marathon (still fairly new to running and tri so its kinda a big deal it was the first marathon after I actually started traininig) and while I've finished in a decent time (4:08) from the very beginning I've felt just how much more my quads had to work compared to treadmill. so while realizing you cannot fully substitute road running with treadmill I was wondering if there are any other tricks that can develop more balanced muscles in the leg. would increasing the incline more help or will it activate muscles in a totally different way? I'm kinda stuck with treadmill during the lunch break for my training at the moment so any ideas on how to make it as comparable as possible to road are appreciated


Your over thinking it, run more. You can absolutely substitute road running for a treadmill if the boredom doesn't kill you first. No incline needed.

There could be a number of reasons why your legs didn't feel right during your race but none of those reasons includes setting the incline differently on your treadmill.

2014-11-18 9:28 PM
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Subject: RE: any way to develop balanced muscles running on treadmill?
Agree with above ^

I've always used the treadmill for a lot of my run training without issue, and I know several running friends who have trained almost exclusively on the treadmill for marathons and other distance races. There's nothing about the treadmill that makes you run "unbalanced", but there are a LOT of reasons why a marathon will feel harder than training (for anyone, not just treadmill runners). For example, what was your training mileage like? How long were your runs? How much faster/slower were you going in the marathon? How hilly was the race? etc.

I also never set the incline at 1% because I don't believe it makes the treadmill feel more like road running. Here's an article that supports me: http://www.runnersworld.com/treadmills/biomechanics-expert-debunks-...

Nothing really makes the treadmill feel like the road, but that's not really a big deal- people train on all sorts of surfaces that don't feel like road (track, trail, gravel, hills, etc.). It's all running, but it will feel slightly different than the next surface or terrain. When running on the treadmill I simply adjust the pace to give me the desired training effect and effort. All treadmills are slightly different, but to me it usually feels similar to running on a perfectly flat, smooth outdooor surface.

Edited by jennifer_runs 2014-11-18 9:30 PM
2014-11-18 11:11 PM
in reply to: #5068421

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Subject: RE: any way to develop balanced muscles running on treadmill?
If I were to do most of my training on a treadmill I wouldn't "set" it on a static incline. I have never run a road race on a completely flat course. I would use one of the programs to vary the incline throughout the workouts. I would even use the downhill feature if it were available, but many treadmills don't have it.
2014-11-19 12:42 AM
in reply to: woosh


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Subject: RE: any way to develop balanced muscles running on treadmill?

As said above, it's definitely not the treadmill, and definitely is getting your overall training (particularly volume) to meet your race goal fitness level. 

 

The marathon is a punishing race in that if you're even the slightest bit undertrained, you will feel it in spades, both during AND after the race. And it'll be in the quads for most, due to the leg impact.

 

Just one of many articles giving examples of elite runners who successfully raced at that level even while doing significant treadmill training.

 

http://www.roadrunnersports.com/rrs/content/content.jsp?contentId=300125 

2014-11-19 12:25 PM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: any way to develop balanced muscles running on treadmill?
just to make sure we are on the same page, I do love my treadmill running and more than happy to run indoors.

I also understand that running 6-7 miles a day is not exactly perfect training for having a 26.2mile day, but that's the best I can do at the moment. that's exactly why I'm so pleased with my 4:08.

and when I'm talking about treadmill feeling different I'm not talking about the surface of it but rather the fact that the ground is moving which in my mind results in two things: my leg being helped back while on the ground (hence I figure less quads involvement) and more distance covered while in the air (more groundspeed even if airspeed is same). that's why I was trying to figure out a way to make treadmill running more "natural". at the end of the day of course it doesn't matter much since I'm not an elite runner. running is running in all of its variations.

and when I talk about using my quads more it's not because my quads felt sore after the marathon it's the fact that from the very first steps I was aware of using my quads more. so that doesn't have to do anything with the distance.

I really appreciate everyone's input, got so much food for thought and experimentation now. Thank you!

PS and I didn't think marathons are all that punishing. I gave it all I could in the morning but still managed to go for a dance lesson at night

Edited by woosh 2014-11-19 12:27 PM


2014-11-19 1:16 PM
in reply to: woosh

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Subject: RE: any way to develop balanced muscles running on treadmill?

Still thinking the stationary surroundings perspective of the treadmill is messing with the head, not the treadmill "helping" to pull the leg back. Hope there is nothing else acting on the torso holding it in place. If things feel different there very likely is a difference going on, but it's not always for why people think.

2014-11-19 1:32 PM
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Subject: RE: any way to develop balanced muscles running on treadmill?
Treadmill doesn't help move your leg back-- you have to propel yourself forward vs the backward moving belt. It's a frame-of-reference change. Most of your effort when running goes towards pushing your body off of the ground, and the physics of the treadmill are the same as running over still ground other than the frame of reference. Your quads are still doing just as much work-- unless you are comparing uphill outside to flat treadmill. Then the fix is easy-- run more hills on the treadmill. That will work the quads for sure.

Again, don't think about it as trying to make the treadmill more like outside-- just think about the way you can get in your best training. Mixing it up by varying the incline rather than keeping it at one level the whole time, as well as mixing up your paces, is really the best way to get the most out of treadmill running.

It sounds like you are running 40-45 miles per week which is great but still on the low side for marathon training-- and no runs over 7 miles before the marathon? It's best if you can work in some longer runs of 2.5-3 hours at least.

Edited by jennifer_runs 2014-11-19 1:34 PM
2014-11-19 2:42 PM
in reply to: woosh


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Subject: RE: any way to develop balanced muscles running on treadmill?
I have a friend that Boston qualified, running only on the treadmill for training, and never doing inclines. Don't over think it, just run. If anything, change up the pace. treadmill running is great for doing speed workouts rather than the same old plodding along.
2014-11-19 4:36 PM
in reply to: jennifer_runs

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Subject: RE: any way to develop balanced muscles running on treadmill?
I am playing with inclines and paces. the whole thing started as a fun project of pushing past my daily hiking limit of 30 miles so I never really had any ambitions about running fast till lately. to me running is more of a self exploration adventure and triathlons are still in the "just cross the finish line" category. this marathon was the first attempt to see where I'm at with regards to marathons in the first place. but now that I know I can run a 4hr marathon I want to see if I can qualify for Boston and I definitely want to get longer runs in but so far my schedule was very much against this idea. hopefully will finally get some longer runs in during the holiday season.
2014-11-19 6:51 PM
in reply to: woosh

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Subject: RE: any way to develop balanced muscles running on treadmill?

Saw you're getting 6-7 miles at a time, but how often is this? 5x is putting you at 30-some miles a week and there is a lot you can do with that in building general run fitness as you learn what various intensities and types of run will do. Certainly not optimum for a marathon specific build as the durations are kind of short for the long work, but plenty for a decent regular weekly total with some of them being fast/hard runs.



2014-11-19 7:33 PM
in reply to: brigby1

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Subject: RE: any way to develop balanced muscles running on treadmill?
yeah, I usually run 5 times a week on average. I'm experimenting with the whole range of 1mph increments from 1mph to 12mph to learn what each pace feels like but when I just run it's usually around 7:00-8:00 pace with occasional 5:30-6:00 bursts which I can hold for about 1min before giving up. I usually experiment with incline only when Im tired so I set a lower pace and go through a range or inclines
2014-11-19 7:35 PM
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Subject: RE: any way to develop balanced muscles running on treadmill?
I read it as 6-7 mile every day, but now I realize that it's not necessarily that much. How much were you actually running in a week?

Curious-- what pace do you run on the treadmill, and what pace did you start your marathon? What pace did you finish? Maybe starting the marathon at a pace very different than what you were used to led to the different feeling in the legs.

If you're well prepared for a marathon, you usually don't feel the strain in your legs that early. Even if that preparation is on the treadmill. Good preparation means following a plan with decent mileage and a good mix of paces and lengths of runs.

I can't tell how old you are, but you likely have about an hour to take off that marathon time for a BQ. Do you have any shorter race times to compare to?

edit: sorry we were posting at the same time. Those paces are very fast for someone running a 4-hour marathon. :) (that's my marathon time and I never go that fast on the treadmill). I think you just weren't used to the different type of running that an endurance run like a marathon requires. You adjusted your pace and style from the beginning which made it tougher on the legs. When you train for a marathon, some of the preparation will be at marathon pace, so you'll be more used to it.


Edited by jennifer_runs 2014-11-19 7:38 PM
2014-11-19 8:14 PM
in reply to: jennifer_runs

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Subject: RE: any way to develop balanced muscles running on treadmill?
I run on weekdays since there's always something going on on the weekends. so 5x 6-7 would be 30-35 miles/week. sometimes more sometimes less depending on how I feel. I run at about 7-8mpm. Since I had no clue whether I can keep same pace for the whole marathon (and I kinda suspected I wouldn't ) I decided to start with 7:30 and see how far it'd take me. unfortunately my garmin crapped out on me 10minutes into the run so after that I wasn't really able to keep close track of just how fast I was going and marathon provided only overall time, no splits, but I looked at the official clock when finishing the first loop and it showed 1:47 so I figure I ran about 8:00 on average for the first half. I manged to restart my garmin in the second half and last 4 miles I was going at about 11mpm. I tried accelerating for the last mile or so and ended up with 9:00 for the last full mile and 7:20 for the last .3 mile which was defenitely not sustainable for longer period at that point

I'm 35 and I just got into running 3 months ago so I don't have any other real races for comparison. I did a half once with my friend but it was a social run with me being very hangover and having 1hr sleep that night. we just kept at a social 9:00 all the way and I ended up with 2:00 on that one. but there was no effort to go fast there and I could barely keep my eyes open so it's not really a good reference point. I know I need to get to 3:05 for BQ so a lot of fun to be had before I get there this was a trial stone to see where I am to begin with. I actually started at about the same pace I run my normal runs but it does look like I should start way slower to keep consistent pace to the very end.
2014-11-19 11:04 PM
in reply to: woosh

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Subject: RE: any way to develop balanced muscles running on treadmill?
Originally posted by woosh

I run on weekdays since there's always something going on on the weekends. so 5x 6-7 would be 30-35 miles/week. sometimes more sometimes less depending on how I feel. I run at about 7-8mpm. Since I had no clue whether I can keep same pace for the whole marathon (and I kinda suspected I wouldn't ) I decided to start with 7:30 and see how far it'd take me. unfortunately my garmin crapped out on me 10minutes into the run so after that I wasn't really able to keep close track of just how fast I was going and marathon provided only overall time, no splits, but I looked at the official clock when finishing the first loop and it showed 1:47 so I figure I ran about 8:00 on average for the first half. I manged to restart my garmin in the second half and last 4 miles I was going at about 11mpm. I tried accelerating for the last mile or so and ended up with 9:00 for the last full mile and 7:20 for the last .3 mile which was defenitely not sustainable for longer period at that point

I'm 35 and I just got into running 3 months ago so I don't have any other real races for comparison. I did a half once with my friend but it was a social run with me being very hangover and having 1hr sleep that night. we just kept at a social 9:00 all the way and I ended up with 2:00 on that one. but there was no effort to go fast there and I could barely keep my eyes open so it's not really a good reference point. I know I need to get to 3:05 for BQ so a lot of fun to be had before I get there this was a trial stone to see where I am to begin with. I actually started at about the same pace I run my normal runs but it does look like I should start way slower to keep consistent pace to the very end.


Actually, I don't think there's any point of running a "way slower marathon" at this point. You just need to train up to your potential. Well, maybe you can aim for a 8:00/mile pace for your next one, but train for it in such a way that that will give you that endurance. You have more speed than endurance now, so that means more, longer steady miles (some of those longer runs could be closer to 9:00/mile.

You have lots of potential and with the right training you will be able to reach your goals.
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