General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Do you use Critical Power or FTP testing? Rss Feed  
Moderators: k9car363, alicefoeller Reply
 
 
of 2
 
 
Do you use Critical Power or FTP testing?
OptionResults
Critical Power testing only3 Votes - [14.29%]
FTP testing only4 Votes - [19.05%]
If CP 5' & 20' tests8 Votes - [38.1%]
If FTP single 20' test3 Votes - [14.29%]
If FTP dual 20' tests0 Votes - [0%]
if FTP dual 8' interval test2 Votes - [9.52%]
If FTP 5' and 20' dual interval test1 Votes - [4.76%]
This is a multiple choice poll.

2014-12-31 4:58 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

User image

Extreme Veteran
5722
5000500100100
Subject: RE: Do you use Critical Power or FTP testing?
Originally posted by Left Brain
I know some kids who have w/kg ratios in the 4.5-4.7 range.....but they'd get their arses handed to them in a HIM, for instance.  On the other hand, they easily can hold their own in a super sprint with an IM champion....as seen this year at Milwaukee when 16-19 year olds stayed right in the thick of the race.....and one made the podium.  In a long race they'd be thrashed. 

There is still the need to be able to hit 800-1000 watts in a draft legal race.....you can't do that repeatedly, and recover, in a single race, by just training to get your FTP higher....right?  I realize we aren't talking about avg. racers.......just trying to understand it better.





Steve Johnson, a great IM racer put 1min20s into these Jrs at Milwaukee. On a 20km course that's about 4s/km. That's about 40watts. So no, there are not "easily keeping up with IM champions " on the bike.

Steve's Threshold is about 4.6 watt/kg based on his IMAZ race report.

Toland who put 2min into Jr on the bike is a 4.6watt/kg racer

Something doesn't add up . You may want to look into this.



2014-12-31 5:04 PM
in reply to: 0

User image

Pro
15655
5000500050005001002525
Subject: RE: Do you use Critical Power or FTP testing?

Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by Left Brain I know some kids who have w/kg ratios in the 4.5-4.7 range.....but they'd get their arses handed to them in a HIM, for instance.  On the other hand, they easily can hold their own in a super sprint with an IM champion....as seen this year at Milwaukee when 16-19 year olds stayed right in the thick of the race.....and one made the podium.  In a long race they'd be thrashed. 

There is still the need to be able to hit 800-1000 watts in a draft legal race.....you can't do that repeatedly, and recover, in a single race, by just training to get your FTP higher....right?  I realize we aren't talking about avg. racers.......just trying to understand it better.

Steve Johnson, a great IM racer put 1min20s into these Jrs at Milwaukee. On a 20km course that's about 4s/km. That's about 40watts. So no, there are not "easily keeping up with IM champions " on the bike. Steve's Threshold is about 4.6 watt/kg based on his IMAZ race report. Toland who put 2min into Jr on the bike is a 4.6watt/kg racer Something doesn't add up . You may want to look into this.

No, the grand prix race.......I know they can put some time on them in an Oly race. These kids train for fast sprint races.....their coaches won't even let them do olys yet.  That's why I question the FTP across the range.  Starky ran the grand prix.....couldn't drop the Jrs....and I know he has a higher FTP then they do.  Toland does nothing in the DL format, I don't think he's ever cracked the top 30 ,which is what I was wondering about.(admittedly, it's mostly because he can't swim, the DL kids all know Jack and know he can put up a monster TT on the bike)  The jumps cause problems for the guys/gals who don't train for it.



Edited by Left Brain 2014-12-31 5:14 PM
2014-12-31 5:12 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

Master
10208
50005000100100
Northern IL
Subject: RE: Do you use Critical Power or FTP testing?

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by brigby1

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by brigby1

Originally posted by Donto

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by marcag . But IMO the short (3-5minute) & long (20-30 minute) test, if properly executed provides the most insight as you can get more parameters from it and can you those parameters to zoom in to your true threshold. .

This is what we are doing with the Jr. Elite kids.  They get tested 3 times per year.  We just finished the first last week as they begin to ramp up for the first races in March.  We'll do it again right before the meat of the season starts in May, and then again at the end of the season before they take a break from cycling.  This is the 3rd year I've been involved with watching it.......it's interesting to see the numbers over that time period.

The most important thing I've learned is that your FTP number really doesn't mean crap if you don't have someone who can put together the workouts that use the zones that your FTP number gives you.  Once you have someone that can dial in the information and set up a plan to increase your power it's worth it's weight in gold.

I agree.  I was part of Marc & Shane's power mentor group last year and learned a lot from it.  I didn't realize how you can take the ratio of the two CP tests and if the ratio was skewed on one end or the other you then know you weakness.  There were a different set of workouts for different groups; The TT'ers, All-Rounders and Sprinters.

The differences between those groups is exactly what I was thinking about. Helps to show why some people do better than others with the different type of work.

That's another good point.  You have to know what your goals are, because not all triathlon is alike.  Our kids train to be able to withstand, or create, big surges that are meant to drop riders in a draft legal format.  It's very different from training to increase power for an AG race....and then you have the various distances in those races as well.  Not all cycling is equal.

This is not why we created the groups. It was not meant to do training specific to a distance, it was meant to work on relative strengths and weakness. Performance across all distances is driven mainly by FTP. How FTP is made up is important. There are two very important components. Your VO2max and the % of VO2max you can hold for an hour. The "roof" (VO2max) and Ceiling (% VO2max can hold for 1hr) analogy is sometimes used. We divided the groups based on who had a high roof and who had a high ceiling and made them work on their weakness It had nothing to do with the race distance. Again improving FTP is the key across all distances.

That's interesting.  We have some really knowledgeable folks who say that training is very race specific.  But I can see how your group could be generic to improving FTP.  Different goals.

There are *some* differences between the various race differences, but having a strong threshold power is necessary for *all* of them. Even the longer ones raced well short of threshold. The race specific training is built on top of having very strong threshold power. As we've seen up at the faster end of things, someone with very strong threshold performance can move between the distances and do fairly well. The race specific work can help make the difference between *well* and *win*.

That's a good way to put it.  I'm going to bring this up Saturday at the next session.  Obviously there are other factors.  I know some kids who have w/kg ratios in the 4.5-4.7 range.....but they'd get their arses handed to them in a HIM, for instance.  On the other hand, they easily can hold their own in a super sprint with an IM champion....as seen this year at Milwaukee when 16-19 year olds stayed right in the thick of the race.....and one made the podium.  In a long race they'd be thrashed. 

There is still the need to be able to hit 800-1000 watts in a draft legal race.....you can't do that repeatedly, and recover, in a single race, by just training to get your FTP higher....right?  I realize we aren't talking about avg. racers.......just trying to understand it better.

Suggest rereading where you thanked Shane on this page. Let that sink in again and see what questions come from there.

2014-12-31 5:15 PM
in reply to: 0

User image

Extreme Veteran
5722
5000500100100
Subject: RE: Do you use Critical Power or FTP testing?
Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by Left Brain I know some kids who have w/kg ratios in the 4.5-4.7 range.....but they'd get their arses handed to them in a HIM, for instance.  On the other hand, they easily can hold their own in a super sprint with an IM champion....as seen this year at Milwaukee when 16-19 year olds stayed right in the thick of the race.....and one made the podium.  In a long race they'd be thrashed. 

There is still the need to be able to hit 800-1000 watts in a draft legal race.....you can't do that repeatedly, and recover, in a single race, by just training to get your FTP higher....right?  I realize we aren't talking about avg. racers.......just trying to understand it better.

Steve Johnson, a great IM racer put 1min20s into these Jrs at Milwaukee. On a 20km course that's about 4s/km. That's about 40watts. So no, there are not "easily keeping up with IM champions " on the bike. Steve's Threshold is about 4.6 watt/kg based on his IMAZ race report. Toland who put 2min into Jr on the bike is a 4.6watt/kg racer Something doesn't add up . You may want to look into this.

No, the grand prix race.......I know they can put some time on them in an Oly race. These kids train for fast sprint races.....their coaches won't even let them do olys yet.  That's why I question the FTP across the range.  Starsky ran the grand prix.....couldn't drop the Jrs....and I know he has a higher FTP then they do.  Toland does nothing in the DL format, which is what I was wondering about.(admittedly, it's mostly because he can't swim, the DL kids all know Jack and know he can put up a monster bike)  The jumps cause problems for the guys/gals who don't train for it.




the numbers quoted are for the spint in Milwaukee. Toland and Johnson with FTPs of 4.6w/kg are outbiking them by 40watts on a sprint.

how does a person with a FTP of 4.6 w/kg outbike a person with a FTP of 4-5-4.7 w/kg by 40watts on a sprint ?




Edited by marcag 2014-12-31 5:16 PM
2014-12-31 5:21 PM
in reply to: brigby1

User image

Pro
15655
5000500050005001002525
Subject: RE: Do you use Critical Power or FTP testing?

Originally posted by brigby1

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by brigby1

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by brigby1

Originally posted by Donto

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by marcag . But IMO the short (3-5minute) & long (20-30 minute) test, if properly executed provides the most insight as you can get more parameters from it and can you those parameters to zoom in to your true threshold. .

This is what we are doing with the Jr. Elite kids.  They get tested 3 times per year.  We just finished the first last week as they begin to ramp up for the first races in March.  We'll do it again right before the meat of the season starts in May, and then again at the end of the season before they take a break from cycling.  This is the 3rd year I've been involved with watching it.......it's interesting to see the numbers over that time period.

The most important thing I've learned is that your FTP number really doesn't mean crap if you don't have someone who can put together the workouts that use the zones that your FTP number gives you.  Once you have someone that can dial in the information and set up a plan to increase your power it's worth it's weight in gold.

I agree.  I was part of Marc & Shane's power mentor group last year and learned a lot from it.  I didn't realize how you can take the ratio of the two CP tests and if the ratio was skewed on one end or the other you then know you weakness.  There were a different set of workouts for different groups; The TT'ers, All-Rounders and Sprinters.

The differences between those groups is exactly what I was thinking about. Helps to show why some people do better than others with the different type of work.

That's another good point.  You have to know what your goals are, because not all triathlon is alike.  Our kids train to be able to withstand, or create, big surges that are meant to drop riders in a draft legal format.  It's very different from training to increase power for an AG race....and then you have the various distances in those races as well.  Not all cycling is equal.

This is not why we created the groups. It was not meant to do training specific to a distance, it was meant to work on relative strengths and weakness. Performance across all distances is driven mainly by FTP. How FTP is made up is important. There are two very important components. Your VO2max and the % of VO2max you can hold for an hour. The "roof" (VO2max) and Ceiling (% VO2max can hold for 1hr) analogy is sometimes used. We divided the groups based on who had a high roof and who had a high ceiling and made them work on their weakness It had nothing to do with the race distance. Again improving FTP is the key across all distances.

That's interesting.  We have some really knowledgeable folks who say that training is very race specific.  But I can see how your group could be generic to improving FTP.  Different goals.

There are *some* differences between the various race differences, but having a strong threshold power is necessary for *all* of them. Even the longer ones raced well short of threshold. The race specific training is built on top of having very strong threshold power. As we've seen up at the faster end of things, someone with very strong threshold performance can move between the distances and do fairly well. The race specific work can help make the difference between *well* and *win*.

That's a good way to put it.  I'm going to bring this up Saturday at the next session.  Obviously there are other factors.  I know some kids who have w/kg ratios in the 4.5-4.7 range.....but they'd get their arses handed to them in a HIM, for instance.  On the other hand, they easily can hold their own in a super sprint with an IM champion....as seen this year at Milwaukee when 16-19 year olds stayed right in the thick of the race.....and one made the podium.  In a long race they'd be thrashed. 

There is still the need to be able to hit 800-1000 watts in a draft legal race.....you can't do that repeatedly, and recover, in a single race, by just training to get your FTP higher....right?  I realize we aren't talking about avg. racers.......just trying to understand it better.

Suggest rereading where you thanked Shane on this page. Let that sink in again and see what questions come from there.

Look, I know that.....but I wonder what Shane will say about DL racing and training for those races.  I'm not trying to argue.....I'm working on the differences in training for different races.  I don't really give a rip about TT bike work at this point.  Even when our kids do their FTP tests they are put on a course with hills on the computrainer.  That racing is NOT time trialing.  And.....like I said, these are folks who have trained TdF riders and numerous national champions.....it's not like they don't know the game.  I'm just looking for a discussion on the range of training for triathlon racing so I better understand the training.....there's quite a bit of triathlon out there besides non-draft......and believe this....there is one hell of a lot more DL racing coming.

2014-12-31 5:22 PM
in reply to: marcag

User image

Pro
15655
5000500050005001002525
Subject: RE: Do you use Critical Power or FTP testing?

Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by Left Brain I know some kids who have w/kg ratios in the 4.5-4.7 range.....but they'd get their arses handed to them in a HIM, for instance.  On the other hand, they easily can hold their own in a super sprint with an IM champion....as seen this year at Milwaukee when 16-19 year olds stayed right in the thick of the race.....and one made the podium.  In a long race they'd be thrashed. 

There is still the need to be able to hit 800-1000 watts in a draft legal race.....you can't do that repeatedly, and recover, in a single race, by just training to get your FTP higher....right?  I realize we aren't talking about avg. racers.......just trying to understand it better.

Steve Johnson, a great IM racer put 1min20s into these Jrs at Milwaukee. On a 20km course that's about 4s/km. That's about 40watts. So no, there are not "easily keeping up with IM champions " on the bike. Steve's Threshold is about 4.6 watt/kg based on his IMAZ race report. Toland who put 2min into Jr on the bike is a 4.6watt/kg racer Something doesn't add up . You may want to look into this.

No, the grand prix race.......I know they can put some time on them in an Oly race. These kids train for fast sprint races.....their coaches won't even let them do olys yet.  That's why I question the FTP across the range.  Starsky ran the grand prix.....couldn't drop the Jrs....and I know he has a higher FTP then they do.  Toland does nothing in the DL format, which is what I was wondering about.(admittedly, it's mostly because he can't swim, the DL kids all know Jack and know he can put up a monster bike)  The jumps cause problems for the guys/gals who don't train for it.

the numbers quoted are for the spint in Milwaukee. Toland and Johnson with FTPs of 4.6w/kg are outbiking them by 40watts on a sprint. how does a person with a FTP of 4.6 w/kg outbike a person with a FTP of 4-5-4.7 w/kg by 40watts on a sprint ?

For starters.....most of the DL kids don't even own a TT bike.   



2014-12-31 5:27 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

User image

Extreme Veteran
5722
5000500100100
Subject: RE: Do you use Critical Power or FTP testing?
Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by Left Brain I know some kids who have w/kg ratios in the 4.5-4.7 range.....but they'd get their arses handed to them in a HIM, for instance.  On the other hand, they easily can hold their own in a super sprint with an IM champion....as seen this year at Milwaukee when 16-19 year olds stayed right in the thick of the race.....and one made the podium.  In a long race they'd be thrashed. 

There is still the need to be able to hit 800-1000 watts in a draft legal race.....you can't do that repeatedly, and recover, in a single race, by just training to get your FTP higher....right?  I realize we aren't talking about avg. racers.......just trying to understand it better.

Steve Johnson, a great IM racer put 1min20s into these Jrs at Milwaukee. On a 20km course that's about 4s/km. That's about 40watts. So no, there are not "easily keeping up with IM champions " on the bike. Steve's Threshold is about 4.6 watt/kg based on his IMAZ race report. Toland who put 2min into Jr on the bike is a 4.6watt/kg racer Something doesn't add up . You may want to look into this.

No, the grand prix race.......I know they can put some time on them in an Oly race. These kids train for fast sprint races.....their coaches won't even let them do olys yet.  That's why I question the FTP across the range.  Starsky ran the grand prix.....couldn't drop the Jrs....and I know he has a higher FTP then they do.  Toland does nothing in the DL format, which is what I was wondering about.(admittedly, it's mostly because he can't swim, the DL kids all know Jack and know he can put up a monster bike)  The jumps cause problems for the guys/gals who don't train for it.

the numbers quoted are for the spint in Milwaukee. Toland and Johnson with FTPs of 4.6w/kg are outbiking them by 40watts on a sprint. how does a person with a FTP of 4.6 w/kg outbike a person with a FTP of 4-5-4.7 w/kg by 40watts on a sprint ?

For starters.....most of the DL kids don't even own a TT bike.   




But in this case we know that all 3 had a TT bike.



2014-12-31 5:28 PM
in reply to: 0

User image

Pro
15655
5000500050005001002525
Subject: RE: Do you use Critical Power or FTP testing?

Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by Left Brain I know some kids who have w/kg ratios in the 4.5-4.7 range.....but they'd get their arses handed to them in a HIM, for instance.  On the other hand, they easily can hold their own in a super sprint with an IM champion....as seen this year at Milwaukee when 16-19 year olds stayed right in the thick of the race.....and one made the podium.  In a long race they'd be thrashed. 

There is still the need to be able to hit 800-1000 watts in a draft legal race.....you can't do that repeatedly, and recover, in a single race, by just training to get your FTP higher....right?  I realize we aren't talking about avg. racers.......just trying to understand it better.

Steve Johnson, a great IM racer put 1min20s into these Jrs at Milwaukee. On a 20km course that's about 4s/km. That's about 40watts. So no, there are not "easily keeping up with IM champions " on the bike. Steve's Threshold is about 4.6 watt/kg based on his IMAZ race report. Toland who put 2min into Jr on the bike is a 4.6watt/kg racer Something doesn't add up . You may want to look into this.

No, the grand prix race.......I know they can put some time on them in an Oly race. These kids train for fast sprint races.....their coaches won't even let them do olys yet.  That's why I question the FTP across the range.  Starsky ran the grand prix.....couldn't drop the Jrs....and I know he has a higher FTP then they do.  Toland does nothing in the DL format, which is what I was wondering about.(admittedly, it's mostly because he can't swim, the DL kids all know Jack and know he can put up a monster bike)  The jumps cause problems for the guys/gals who don't train for it.

the numbers quoted are for the spint in Milwaukee. Toland and Johnson with FTPs of 4.6w/kg are outbiking them by 40watts on a sprint. how does a person with a FTP of 4.6 w/kg outbike a person with a FTP of 4-5-4.7 w/kg by 40watts on a sprint ?

For starters.....most of the DL kids don't even own a TT bike.   

But in this case we know that all 3 had a TT bike.

Dude....at the Monroe DL triathlon I don't think Jack made the top 10 on the bike....I know he was not in the top 5.

ETA - my bad.....he was 10th out of ~70.......and then 50th or so overall (again, mostly because he can't swim......like Johnson)



Edited by Left Brain 2014-12-31 5:37 PM
2014-12-31 5:38 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

User image

Extreme Veteran
5722
5000500100100
Subject: RE: Do you use Critical Power or FTP testing?
Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by Left Brain I know some kids who have w/kg ratios in the 4.5-4.7 range.....but they'd get their arses handed to them in a HIM, for instance.  On the other hand, they easily can hold their own in a super sprint with an IM champion....as seen this year at Milwaukee when 16-19 year olds stayed right in the thick of the race.....and one made the podium.  In a long race they'd be thrashed. 

There is still the need to be able to hit 800-1000 watts in a draft legal race.....you can't do that repeatedly, and recover, in a single race, by just training to get your FTP higher....right?  I realize we aren't talking about avg. racers.......just trying to understand it better.

Steve Johnson, a great IM racer put 1min20s into these Jrs at Milwaukee. On a 20km course that's about 4s/km. That's about 40watts. So no, there are not "easily keeping up with IM champions " on the bike. Steve's Threshold is about 4.6 watt/kg based on his IMAZ race report. Toland who put 2min into Jr on the bike is a 4.6watt/kg racer Something doesn't add up . You may want to look into this.

No, the grand prix race.......I know they can put some time on them in an Oly race. These kids train for fast sprint races.....their coaches won't even let them do olys yet.  That's why I question the FTP across the range.  Starsky ran the grand prix.....couldn't drop the Jrs....and I know he has a higher FTP then they do.  Toland does nothing in the DL format, which is what I was wondering about.(admittedly, it's mostly because he can't swim, the DL kids all know Jack and know he can put up a monster bike)  The jumps cause problems for the guys/gals who don't train for it.

the numbers quoted are for the spint in Milwaukee. Toland and Johnson with FTPs of 4.6w/kg are outbiking them by 40watts on a sprint. how does a person with a FTP of 4.6 w/kg outbike a person with a FTP of 4-5-4.7 w/kg by 40watts on a sprint ?

For starters.....most of the DL kids don't even own a TT bike.   

But in this case we know that all 3 had a TT bike.

Dude....at the Monroe DL triathlon I don't think Jack made the top 10 on the bike....I know he was not in the top 5.




And what I am saying is that people you claim have a 4.5-4.7 w/kg can't keep up with people that have a 4.6 w/kg. On a spint, at Milwaukee.

THis is a sign that the protocol they are using to determine that 4.6 w/kg may be flawed or there is another problem you may want to look into.

BTW, the ability to draft starky on a super sprint is not a great indicator of relative FTP

The topic was measurement of FTP, right ?

Happy New Year !!





2014-12-31 5:47 PM
in reply to: 0

User image

Pro
15655
5000500050005001002525
Subject: RE: Do you use Critical Power or FTP testing?

Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by Left Brain I know some kids who have w/kg ratios in the 4.5-4.7 range.....but they'd get their arses handed to them in a HIM, for instance.  On the other hand, they easily can hold their own in a super sprint with an IM champion....as seen this year at Milwaukee when 16-19 year olds stayed right in the thick of the race.....and one made the podium.  In a long race they'd be thrashed. 

There is still the need to be able to hit 800-1000 watts in a draft legal race.....you can't do that repeatedly, and recover, in a single race, by just training to get your FTP higher....right?  I realize we aren't talking about avg. racers.......just trying to understand it better.

Steve Johnson, a great IM racer put 1min20s into these Jrs at Milwaukee. On a 20km course that's about 4s/km. That's about 40watts. So no, there are not "easily keeping up with IM champions " on the bike. Steve's Threshold is about 4.6 watt/kg based on his IMAZ race report. Toland who put 2min into Jr on the bike is a 4.6watt/kg racer Something doesn't add up . You may want to look into this.

No, the grand prix race.......I know they can put some time on them in an Oly race. These kids train for fast sprint races.....their coaches won't even let them do olys yet.  That's why I question the FTP across the range.  Starsky ran the grand prix.....couldn't drop the Jrs....and I know he has a higher FTP then they do.  Toland does nothing in the DL format, which is what I was wondering about.(admittedly, it's mostly because he can't swim, the DL kids all know Jack and know he can put up a monster bike)  The jumps cause problems for the guys/gals who don't train for it.

the numbers quoted are for the spint in Milwaukee. Toland and Johnson with FTPs of 4.6w/kg are outbiking them by 40watts on a sprint. how does a person with a FTP of 4.6 w/kg outbike a person with a FTP of 4-5-4.7 w/kg by 40watts on a sprint ?

For starters.....most of the DL kids don't even own a TT bike.   

But in this case we know that all 3 had a TT bike.

Dude....at the Monroe DL triathlon I don't think Jack made the top 10 on the bike....I know he was not in the top 5.

And what I am saying is that people you claim have a 4.5-4.7 w/kg can't keep up with people that have a 4.6 w/kg. On a spint, at Milwaukee. THis is a sign that the protocol they are using to determine that 4.6 w/kg may be flawed or there is another problem you may want to look into. BTW, the ability to draft starky on a super sprint is not a great indicator of relative FTP The topic was measurement of FTP, right ? Happy New Year !!

Same to you!

As for the bolded.......or they know they have to run, you might want to look at Toland's run....he's always biking like a maniac to make up for his swim.

BTW - nobody was drafting Starky in the super sprint.....he was doing all he could to catch up after the swim.



Edited by Left Brain 2014-12-31 5:49 PM
2014-12-31 5:48 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

Master
10208
50005000100100
Northern IL
Subject: RE: Do you use Critical Power or FTP testing?

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by brigby1

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by brigby1

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by marcag  This is not why we created the groups. It was not meant to do training specific to a distance, it was meant to work on relative strengths and weakness. Performance across all distances is driven mainly by FTP. How FTP is made up is important. There are two very important components. Your VO2max and the % of VO2max you can hold for an hour. The "roof" (VO2max) and Ceiling (% VO2max can hold for 1hr) analogy is sometimes used. We divided the groups based on who had a high roof and who had a high ceiling and made them work on their weakness It had nothing to do with the race distance. Again improving FTP is the key across all distances.

That's interesting.  We have some really knowledgeable folks who say that training is very race specific.  But I can see how your group could be generic to improving FTP.  Different goals.

There are *some* differences between the various race differences, but having a strong threshold power is necessary for *all* of them. Even the longer ones raced well short of threshold. The race specific training is built on top of having very strong threshold power. As we've seen up at the faster end of things, someone with very strong threshold performance can move between the distances and do fairly well. The race specific work can help make the difference between *well* and *win*.

That's a good way to put it.  I'm going to bring this up Saturday at the next session.  Obviously there are other factors.  I know some kids who have w/kg ratios in the 4.5-4.7 range.....but they'd get their arses handed to them in a HIM, for instance.  On the other hand, they easily can hold their own in a super sprint with an IM champion....as seen this year at Milwaukee when 16-19 year olds stayed right in the thick of the race.....and one made the podium.  In a long race they'd be thrashed. 

There is still the need to be able to hit 800-1000 watts in a draft legal race.....you can't do that repeatedly, and recover, in a single race, by just training to get your FTP higher....right?  I realize we aren't talking about avg. racers.......just trying to understand it better.

Suggest rereading where you thanked Shane on this page. Let that sink in again and see what questions come from there.

Look, I know that.....but I wonder what Shane will say about DL racing and training for those races.  I'm not trying to argue.....I'm working on the differences in training for different races.  I don't really give a rip about TT bike work at this point.  Even when our kids do their FTP tests they are put on a course with hills on the computrainer.  That racing is NOT time trialing.  And.....like I said, these are folks who have trained TdF riders and numerous national champions.....it's not like they don't know the game.  I'm just looking for a discussion on the range of training for triathlon racing so I better understand the training.....there's quite a bit of triathlon out there besides non-draft......and believe this....there is one hell of a lot more DL racing coming.

In there is the basis of the energy systems supplementing each other (and some about training to the demands of the racing). There is a W' theory that helps to explain this part of racing put out by Phil Skyba that probably explains it better than I can. Having the capability to hit power several times that of threshold will depend on the shorter term systems (anaerobic & ATP/PCr). The supplementing part is necessary to remember in being able to hit those very high values in a race. In between these efforts it's necessary for the athlete to be operating at a low enough percentage for the higher order to recharge. And it's even better if there is more headroom between that point and where the recovery is taking place at as the recovery can occur more quickly. So by raising FTP, this point is higher and the recharge/refilling can happen at a higher wattage, and may still happen faster if one really develops it. Then when a race will involve hard attacks, it's also necessary to have those higher order energy systems capable of putting out such bursts in addition to being filled up (as described above).

Some of the training for each can seem similar to each other without knowing specific details. Toland (for example), has said his FTP is close to 350 recently (probably higher than it was for Milwaukee). Some of his VO2 work can be up around 400 and could go past even reaching near 450 for shorter interval work. Really depends on what specifically he's doing. The numbers may look big, and it looks like a huge gap over FTP, but when looking at percentages it'll come back into Z5 work. The highest of what I said does go a bit over into Z6, but the space from FTP to high up in Z5 in actual wattage (vs a percentage) looks really big to most as they aren't up this high and aren't necessarily used to working with the numbers.



2014-12-31 5:55 PM
in reply to: brigby1

User image

Pro
15655
5000500050005001002525
Subject: RE: Do you use Critical Power or FTP testing?

I'll be back......got lobsters and crab to eat.

2014-12-31 9:02 PM
in reply to: 0

User image

Pro
15655
5000500050005001002525
Subject: RE: Do you use Critical Power or FTP testing?

Marcaq - after much thought, I think what I will do is present all 3 races of the guys in your example to the men who do our training at Pedal Hard (without dropping their names   ).  I'll explain that #1 and #2 have FTP of 4.6, but that there is no way #3 could have a 4.5  FTP even though he beat #1 and #2 out of the water by over a minute and out ran both of them off the bike to win the race.....even though both #1 and #2 had faster bike splits....because, you know, a triathlon is a great way to measure FTP, especially if the guy with the supposed lower FTP wins the race. (because there is no strategy, no difference in equipment, even conditions for #2, blah,blah,blah.... right?) That ought to tell us something, huh?   Don't worry......I won't tell them where it came from. LMAO

Happy New Year Indeed!!! 

 



Edited by Left Brain 2014-12-31 9:32 PM
2015-01-01 5:59 AM
in reply to: Left Brain

User image

Extreme Veteran
5722
5000500100100
Subject: RE: Do you use Critical Power or FTP testing?
Originally posted by Left Brain

Marcaq - after much thought, I think what I will do is present all 3 races of the guys in your example to the men who do our training at Pedal Hard (without dropping their names   ).  I'll explain that #1 and #2 have FTP of 4.6, but that there is no way #3 could have a 4.5  FTP even though he beat #1 and #2 out of the water by over a minute and out ran both of them off the bike to win the race.....even though both #1 and #2 had faster bike splits....because, you know, a triathlon is a great way to measure FTP, especially if the guy with the supposed lower FTP wins the race. (because there is no strategy, no difference in equipment, even conditions for #2, blah,blah,blah.... right?) That ought to tell us something, huh?   Don't worry......I won't tell them where it came from. LMAO

Happy New Year Indeed!!! 

 




I really didn't want to continue this since we have taken yet another good thread and turned it into a thread about Jr. We should really try to avoid this in the New Year. I will try to bring it somewhat back on topic.

Your claim is that Jr thorugh his sprint training can hold his own with an IM champion on a short distance. I am claiming no, he lost 80 seconds in a sprint to a very good IM ager. Nothing wrong with that, Steve is a stud. If the example is Straky, on a road bike could not catch a pack of drafting elites, maybe.

You threw out numbers of watts per kg, which don't line up with other numbers. The two racers have shown their numbers. The put results that are 40 to 60 watts higher. My question is why two people with the same FTP will be 40 to 60 watts slower on a sprint. It doesn't add up and I suggested you figure out why.

If you want to get to the bottom of it, by all means. The only way to really know is to have a Powermeter with him during racing which you say isn't necessary. Necessary no, useful : very.

Maybe he wasn't at his 100%. The only thing to look at is that's this has happened twice. Milwaukee and worlds.
Maybe he isn't as aero. Hard to believe there is that many watts there, but this is a good justification for more equipment :-)
Maybe his 4.x w/kg is overstated. Maybe he can produce 10giga watts for 3 seconds but can't for 30minutes. Accurate testing (the topic of this thread) can tell this.

Can we get back to testing protocols ? Glad to debate the other stuff in another thread if it's based on real data.

Gotta run (first one of the year).



New Thread
General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Do you use Critical Power or FTP testing? Rss Feed  
 
 
of 2
 
 
RELATED POSTS

Critical Power vs FTP and CP60

Started by mrpetey
Views: 7636 Posts: 13

2011-07-14 2:40 PM YeaJackson

FTP Testing on bike today...have question...

Started by miami9296
Views: 979 Posts: 3

2010-03-07 7:00 PM ADollar79

First good FTP test of the year

Started by newbz
Views: 1969 Posts: 10

2009-03-03 10:05 PM newbz

FTP bike test

Started by Plissken74
Views: 6529 Posts: 13

2009-01-15 1:08 PM JorgeM

FTP test on road or trainer

Started by Marvarnett
Views: 1956 Posts: 17

2008-09-24 11:25 AM Tri Take Me Away
RELATED ARTICLES
date : July 25, 2013
author : JorgeM
comments : 0
This Cycling plan is a general cycling program geared to help triathletes and cyclists improve their Critical Power over a 16 week period. Power and Heart-Rate versions
 
date : August 14, 2009
author : qt2systems
comments : 2
In this second part of Training for an Ironman, Jesse Kropelnicki will discuss threshold testing and the importance of 'critical volume' to get the training needed for race day.
date : January 20, 2009
author : jasongootman
comments : 0
In this second part, we discuss indoor, outdoor and ramp functional threshold tests to determine your power training zones. Presented by Tri-Hard coaching and Fit Werx.
 
date : December 3, 2008
author : jasongootman
comments : 0
What is power training? In this first part, learn the terms and definitions associated with power training. Presented by Tri-Hard coaching and Fit Werx.
date : March 17, 2008
author : CPT
comments : 0
In this third segment, Colorado Premier Training goes through several bike position tests to improve on rider efficiency. This was accomplished by varying the saddle height and aerobar width.