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2015-02-10 10:31 AM


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Subject: Training with HR (a novice question)
Hi there,

I'm a newbie to triathlon, coming from a not particularly running background. I committed and bought a watch with a HR strap and have been trying to commit to a structured training program rather than just ad hoc as I have been for the last couple of years running.

What I have been finding however, is that when running, I've been really struggling to keep my heart rate down in the zone 2-3 range as frequently prescribed in the plan. Zone 4 starts at 85% max heart rate. (My MHR calculated on a track, not algorithm. 2 BPM lower for bike than running).

Perhaps unintuitive to myself, while cycling (either on my spin bike, or outside), something I have spent less time on historically except daily commuting, I find it much easier to stay within the recommended heart rate zones.

Should I really be running 9 minute miles and slower at times when training for an Olympic distance triathlon, given my last half marathon time was 1:33?

Many thanks for your help in advance.


2015-02-10 10:51 AM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: Training with HR (a novice question)
9:00/mile wouldn't be that slow for your zone 2 pace for long runs (on the slower end of the range, perhaps), but you could be closer to 8:30 or even 8:00 for shorter easy runs. Runner friends of mine who do half-marathons that fast will do their aerobic running around 8:30-ish.

It is possible that the max heart rate you got at the track is lower than your actual max. How long did you run to get the max HR?

For running zones I like to set zones based on race paces rather than max HR (which is hard right to get unless you do it in a lab).

For example, if you put 1:33 half-marathon into a calculator like this one http://www.runbayou.com/jackd.htm, easy pace (which is like "zone 2") is at 8:40/mile (which is really an average pace), and this one https://www.mcmillanrunning.com/gives a range of 7:30-9:00 depending on how long the run is.

You can also use LT HR to set HR zones for running, which tends to be a bit more reliable than Max HR.

Edited by jennifer_runs 2015-02-10 10:52 AM
2015-02-10 11:17 AM
in reply to: jennifer_runs


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Subject: RE: Training with HR (a novice question)
Many thanks for your response.

My Max HR was the highest count after 10 minute warm up, then 1200m speeding up, then last lap all out until had to stop. (How a friend had recommended). Interestingly my Max HR for the bike was determined using a gradual increase in speed up a hill and was only 2BPM lower so it may be that I need to revisit the heart rate MHR.

I'll try comparing with pace as well. Where I live is pancake flat enough that its probably fine to use anyhow.

If may be that switching from running 3 days a week running only I was over training in terms of pace, but I could recover well enough given the low frequency, while now given commitments of 3 sports I have to employ a greater degree of restraint.


2015-02-10 12:59 PM
in reply to: Concordi


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Subject: RE: Training with HR (a novice question)
Originally posted by Concordi

Hi there,

I'm a newbie to triathlon, coming from a not particularly running background. I committed and bought a watch with a HR strap and have been trying to commit to a structured training program rather than just ad hoc as I have been for the last couple of years running.

What I have been finding however, is that when running, I've been really struggling to keep my heart rate down in the zone 2-3 range as frequently prescribed in the plan. Zone 4 starts at 85% max heart rate. (My MHR calculated on a track, not algorithm. 2 BPM lower for bike than running).

Perhaps unintuitive to myself, while cycling (either on my spin bike, or outside), something I have spent less time on historically except daily commuting, I find it much easier to stay within the recommended heart rate zones.

Should I really be running 9 minute miles and slower at times when training for an Olympic distance triathlon, given my last half marathon time was 1:33?

Many thanks for your help in advance.


If you can run a 1:33 HM, you should never been running slower than 9/mile. That should feel stupid slow. Go take a look at the McMillian Calculator to get an idea of pacing times. Your slow runs should probably be in the 8:00 - 8:20 area at most and you should be capable of going much quicker than that. Over a 10k (olympic), with 1:33 speed, your probably looking at a 42ish 10k? Running 9 min. miles isn't going to improve that time.

Your zones are probably off. Your HR zones when running look nothing like your HR zones when riding. And your HR can be affected by so many things, it's difficult to pin it down and any one time. IMO, ignore the HR data while running and just use the pacing info on the watch. Use the HR data later reflectively to see how it changes over time and effort.
2015-02-10 1:24 PM
in reply to: ziggie204

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Subject: RE: Training with HR (a novice question)
Maybe a lactic threshold test would be more appropriate.

I will add that my zone 2 running is way slower than my race pace or even my zone 4-5 pace. I go from about a 9min mile to a 12min mile. It was very disappointing when I first starting doing it. I can relate.

2015-02-10 4:56 PM
in reply to: Concordi

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Subject: RE: Training with HR (a novice question)
That MHR test sounds pretty close. If your warm up was pretty easy paced, you may not have gotten it high enough. HR can take up to 4 minutes to plateau out. You were probably clocking that 1200 in a bit quicker than that. A better MHR test would be the same distance but up a hill (like your bike test). The time will be a little longer which may give you a few more beats. Especially good if the hill is slowly sloping then gets steep around that 3 minute mark!

All that said, MHR is probably not as good as LTHR for making zones.


2015-02-11 5:41 AM
in reply to: dfroelich


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Subject: RE: Training with HR (a novice question)
All useful insight, greatly appreciated. I probably have enough time to make the adjustment to working on a pace based system than heart rate. More beneficial?

Prior to adding in the bike and swimming runs tend to have been in the past had been about 7:30m/m longer, while the short runs had been 7-7:15m/m.
Running at 8:30mm, I feel like i could run forever. (I'm aware thats not actually true!)

Interestingly (well perhaps only to me) i noted yesterday my RPE for indoor cycling with heart rate at the top of zone 3 felt atleast as hard as my mid zone 4 running. Maybe my running heart zones need some tweaking?

Additionally, most plans I come accross seem to work based on %MHR. Is there a system for converting to % of lactate threshold? (and advice for calulating this value without snazzy bloody testing...)

I'm sure the best system over the next few months is one I can commit to so I'd like to lock it in soon so I can get in the weeks, but I'm also just interested for interests sake.
2015-02-11 6:13 AM
in reply to: Concordi

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Subject: RE: Training with HR (a novice question)
Originally posted by Concordi
Is there a system for converting to % of lactate threshold? (and advice for calulating this value without snazzy bloody testing...)



LTHR can be 90-95% of maxHR. But this is an approximation.

Better to do a test, Run all out for 30min, take the average HR for the last 20min. There are some articles on this site that give the exact protocol. If you plan to do it, I am sure I or someone can find it.
2015-02-11 6:15 AM
in reply to: Concordi

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Subject: RE: Training with HR (a novice question)
Originally posted by Concordi

Interestingly (well perhaps only to me) i noted yesterday my RPE for indoor cycling with heart rate at the top of zone 3 felt atleast as hard as my mid zone 4 running. Maybe my running heart zones need some tweaking?



Many, many people have a LTHR 10 beats higher on the run and the bike.
Most people have different zones for biking and running.
2015-02-11 6:40 AM
in reply to: Concordi

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Subject: RE: Training with HR (a novice question)
Are you currently in 1:33 HM shape? When did you run it? Try not to fall in a trap of basing your pacing on your best time, but on your most current time

If it is an honest reflection of your running shape, then yes I think the zones are off, but not necessarily by much. Jack Daniels Easy pace has about a minute per mile range I believe, I am in 39:30 10k shape and do my easy runs and recovery runs around 7:40-8:30 min/mile, sometimes slower if I run with others.
2015-02-12 3:19 PM
in reply to: Concordi

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Subject: RE: Training with HR (a novice question)

Do the Field HR LT tests as described here.  BT has a HR zone calculator to determine the zones from these tests.

http://www.beginnertriathlete.com/cms/article-detail.asp?articleid=633



2015-02-12 5:04 PM
in reply to: Concordi

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Subject: RE: Training with HR (a novice question)

As others have stated, check your Zones.  If they aren't right, you may as well be trying to train with power out on the road without having a power meter.

 

Additionally - you can use pace as a means of tracking progress, but it's not an end-all, be-all number.  The pace you end up with for a given HR zone in any given workout has a LOT of variables behind it.    If you haven't slept well, have had a high training load, are fatigued, aren't well hydrated, haven't fueled well that day, perhaps you had one or two intense or really long workouts in the day or two prior, or it's really hot, terrain, etc.., etc.. , etc... ALL of those things can and will have an impact on your paces.

In the end, however, none of it is worth anything is you don't have the zones set up correctly to begin with.  Once you have that, however, you can seriously dial-in and target your training very effectively.  You will be able to precisely guarantee that your hard efforts are hard enough and your easy ones are easy enough.

And yes, you will need to do a separate LTHR test for both the Run & Bike and set up separate zones for them.  It isn't that tough or complicated, it's just a step in the process.  Make sure you are well hydrated and rested before beginning any such test.... a recovery day followed by an off/Rest day prior to a test is not a bad idea at all.  You don't want any latent fatigue skewing your numbers.

 

Once you're up and going with it, however, you have some real apples-to-apples things that you can look at with your training data that will transcend simple paces (which are a result of effort modified by additional factors, not a measure of effort itself).

 

 

2015-02-13 2:53 PM
in reply to: Concordi


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Subject: RE: Training with HR (a novice question)

You almost certainly have your HR zones wrong. 

 

There are two main reasons for this, even though you've tested yourself:

 

1 - The calculation for z2 you are using is too easy. There actually are quite a number of z2 calculations from LT or MaxHR, so if you've chosen one that's 'gentle', it may be too slow for you given that you're clearly in pretty good shape if you're running a 1:33HM. I've read several books with HR calculations, and my z2 as calculated from these books ranges from as easy as 118bpm (10+min/miles, feels like a recovery run) to 138bpm (feels almost like race intensity).

 

2 - Your testing of your maxHR is not correct. Try entering a 5k race, going flat all-out, and making sure you have a good contact and read with the HRM for maxHR. You will probably surprise yourself and go 5-10bpm higher in a race.

 

Another way to see if you're in the ballpark - since you have a good number to work with, assuming you've run a RECENT 1:33 HM, plug that into the Mcmillan calculator and look at the aerobic-zone (easy but not recovery) run paces it recommends. If your Z2 HR correlates roughly with those paces, you're probably good to go. If they're way lower, try #1 and #2 above again. 

 

 

2015-02-13 3:05 PM
in reply to: Concordi

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Subject: RE: Training with HR (a novice question)

I think you're getting a lot of good advice above.  There are many things that can impact your 'zones'.  

Max HR  is notoriously difficult to hit, so it might be quite a bit higher than you think it is.  However, it doesn't change much with fitness level.

LTHR, will change quite a bit with fitness level.  the more you train, the higher /closer to MaxHR it can become.  I've found that the only way I can get a reliable LTHR number is on race day.  A training run where I 'think' I'm pushing it, nearly always falls short.

Oh- HR Drift.  As you run, and your body heats up, and you lose hydration... your HR will increase for the same effort.  So, if your pace for the 2nd mile is 8:30 at the top of zone 1, and by the 6th mile you are now in Zone 3 while running 8:30/mi.... keep the pace and let the HR drift.  It's ok.

 

2015-02-15 11:02 AM
in reply to: morey000

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Subject: RE: Training with HR (a novice question)

Your HR zones are going to be more accurate if you figure them off of Lactate Threshold (LT) vs Max HR or some other method (220-age, etc). Where you are training in zone 2 is perfectly legit for a 1:33 half marathon time. I am a ~1:26-1:32 half marathon runner depending on what type of shape I am in at the time and my zone 1/2 runs are in the 8:30-8:45 range. 

The goal of HR training is to make the cardiovascular system more efficient at a lower HR which allows you to go longer (delaying fatigue) and go faster at higher HR (more blood volume per stroke carrying oxygen rich red blood cells to the working muscles). It isn't an overnight process and may actually involve taking a small step back in performance while you increase your aerobic efficiency at lower HR values. 

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