General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Tri Training Rss Feed  
Moderators: k9car363, alicefoeller Reply
2015-03-27 10:38 AM

User image


11

Subject: Tri Training

Hi Guys (ladies included),

I am training hard preparing for a sprint distance in July, but I don't know if I am training smart. Through Jan-Feb, I was frequently trying to train all three events 3-4 days week. Then I took a forced break for 10 days in early March and recently I have been trying to do 2 disciplines and none of my results are AMAZING! I have this mindset that since I have to do all 3 disciplines on race day, I need to train and prepare for that now, but honestly I don't know what the hell I'm doing, my heart is in it but my head is confused.

BTW, I have been doing all my bike and run in the gym.

Yesterday I swam 1250 m in 30 min non-stop. Today I biked a hill profile, hard ride x 30 min for avg 18.0 MPH. Then I tried to run 3 miles at a 10min/mi pace and struggled. After about 0.5 miles and getting thru some calf cramping, my legs felt really heavy and I started having a 5-6/10 discomfort in my groin/hip flexors R
I get that TRI is way mental and some pain and learning to suffer through it is expected, but how much pain. For a relative newbie, 6'0, 220lbs, I don't know what is pain to embrace vs. preventing injury,

All advice accepted and appreciated. Thanks everyone


2015-03-27 10:57 AM
in reply to: #5104037

User image


88
252525
Subject: RE: Tri Training
I'll admit that I'm also a newbie (1 race under my belt thus far), but I'll offer my opinions on this. Take them for what they're worth (ie - not much).

When you say you were "training 3 events 3-4 days a week", I read that as "I swim 3-4 days/week, bike 3-4 days/week and run 3-4 days/week". For a sprint, I think that's way too much. I don't know your current level of fitness, but there's no way I'd attempt to do that for a sprint. For an IM maybe, but I figure if I'm doing an IM I've got a very good base to build on, not starting at the beginning.

I'm also currently prepping for a Sprint, and I do each discipline twice a week. Sundays are swim days, Mondays are biking, Wednesdays are running, Thursdays are swimming and Saturdays are for a bike/run brick. This works - FOR ME. Obviously I can't tell if it'll work for you or not, but I think scaling back a bit on your training (assuming I interpreted your workout volume correctly - please let me know if not). July is still a long ways away. You've got plenty of time to build a good base for the race. The last thing you want to do is injure yourself overtraining.

As far as the pain in your legs during your run after biking - I'm not sure how many bricks you've done, but I know that my legs are quite weak after the bike (something I'm working to improve - hence my brick every Saturday). If this was one of your first bricks, I'd attribute it to your legs not being used to running right after biking. That will improve with time as you do more bricks and get used to it. If you do alot of bricks, then I've got nothing and hopefully another member will be able to help you out there.
2015-03-27 11:14 AM
in reply to: Toffels

User image

Sensei
Sin City
Subject: RE: Tri Training

First of all, training each discipline 3x a week (9 total workouts) is NOT too much for a sprint.  It completely depends on what your fitness level is.  For someone trying to excel at that distance, 12-13 workouts a week would not be unusual.

Plenty of people have tried to "wing it" when starting with training and just getting out there and moving is a start.  I think I would just do simulated triathlons 3x a week the first couple months I started...

BUT, there are plenty of resources, many free, to help guide you through a training process.  BT has plenty.  Hit "Training Plans" tab above and take a look.  There are around 20 sprint plans and 12 of them are free.  Many have versions with 8-10 workouts a week if you are comfortable with that workload.  I particularly like the 3x balanced plan.

The free plans give time and structure which is one part of the equation but don't provide types of workouts (you don't go easy every day, and you don't go all out either).  Getting a membership give access to plans with a more detailed workout plan.

Many people use Fitzpatricks Week by Week Triathlon Training book.  Maybe 20 bucks (Less if you get the Kindel version) and has training plans from sprint all they way to IM.  Maybe 45-50 in total.

Welcome and good luck.

 

2015-03-27 11:27 AM
in reply to: Toffels

User image


11

Subject: RE: Tri Training
Thanks Toffels,

Yes, now I'm almost embarrassed to admit that for about 7 weeks I was going to the gym to do 30 min ea run and bike and then also goin to the pool for a 30 min swim. I think I kinda burned out and the break did me good.

I have done many bricks, almost all my workouts are a brick of some combo, but I've been trying to up the intensity and this new attempt at running a 10min pace followed by a hard hill profile and perhaps that is why my legs felt so crappy. I'm going to scale it back and take your recommendation of training hard 1 discipline a day.

Have you ever had your running analyzed? I was wondering if I am having the hip pain because I have some kind of funky gait. Pronate, over pronate, etc. I'm going to look into having my running analyzed.............. I just bought new Asics, hopefully right for me, and I'm hoping these help me feel better.

What Sprint are you training for? Mine is the Donner Lake Tri in Northern Ca.
2015-03-27 11:36 AM
in reply to: Kido

User image


11

Subject: RE: Tri Training
I think a structured training plan would be very helpful, going to have a look right now.

Thank you Sensei !

Very happy to be here at BT. The support I get here is invaluable!
2015-03-27 11:43 AM
in reply to: #5104041

User image


88
252525
Subject: RE: Tri Training
A structured plan likely the best way to go.

I've never had my gait tested. I have no idea what it's like. I just go running and don't worry about it.

I'm training for the KC Tri in mid-May. I'm really looking forward to it.


2015-03-27 12:20 PM
in reply to: never DNF again

User image

Member
1748
100050010010025
Exton, PA
Subject: RE: Tri Training
Look up one of the training plans and work with it. It sounds as though you are doing a sprint tri at the gym every day to train? That is not what you want to do. By doing this you start every bike and run session tired which means you are probably doing them with poor form and setting yourself up for injury.

Bricks are recommended once in a while, you do not need to do a lot of them just enough to get used to running on tire legs.

Your hip pain could be from the bike or the run, it could be from not stretching after you run/or bike. Tight muscles and weak core strength can cause back and/or hip flexor problems.
2015-03-27 12:21 PM
in reply to: Toffels

User image

Veteran
1900
1000500100100100100
Southampton, Ontario
Subject: RE: Tri Training
I really like the plans here on BT and am currently on the 3x OLY plan which has me running 3x, biking 3x and swimming 3x per week. As the weather gets better I will start cycling more through commuting but the plan still provides a good base line consistency that is really important.
2015-03-27 1:54 PM
in reply to: never DNF again

User image


370
1001001002525
, North Carolina
Subject: RE: Tri Training
Everyday shouldn't be a triathlon.

Every workout shouldn't be back to back.

In order to fit all your work outs in for all three there will be days where you have to 2x a day but spacing them out helps tremendously.

Most will tell you that non-stop swimming isn't the quickest way to get better. Swimming sets of 50, 100, 200, 400, 800. Is generally recommended. You have some room for improvement on the swim. A coach or masters class is very helpful. But, if you don't want to go that route I recommend Total Immersion and videoing yourself. You can do a lot of self coaching.

Don't equate anything you do on an exercise bike/trainer to what is going to happen on a bike on the road.

No real idea about where you are fitness wise so, hard to make further recommendations.

You've got a solid 15-16 weeks before that triathlon. That's plenty of time to build and have a very good race.

The race I'm looking at says a 400m swim, 6 mile bike(975' elevation change), 2 mile run. That's a great race.

You couldn't probably get by on a 2x week plan or a 2x(strengths) and 3x(weakness). ie Bike, Bike, Run, Run, Swim, Swim. or Bike, Bike, Bike, Run, Run, Swim, Swim.




2015-03-27 6:33 PM
in reply to: Nick B

User image


11

Subject: RE: Tri Training
So much appreciate all the feedback and advice.

I checked out the 16week Olympic training plan above and think that sounds like a good training plan for me at this stage of my fitness level.

While the plan is to do a sprint, the Oly is also happening the next day (July 25/26). If following the 16 wk training plan, would my considering doing both events back to back be ridiculous???

I'm really falling in love with this woman named Tri Athlon !!! :-)
2015-03-27 6:42 PM
in reply to: Nick B

User image


11

Subject: RE: Tri Training
Nick.........

"Swimming sets of 50, 100, 200, 400, 800. Is generally recommended"

So it would be good to swim like this;
50m, rest
100m, rest
200m, rest400m, rest
etc...?????????

is that how I should understand it?

how long do I rest in between sets?

Thanks


2015-03-27 9:18 PM
in reply to: #5104064

User image


370
1001001002525
, North Carolina
Subject: RE: Tri Training
Please don't take my swim advise with a grain of salt.

I was just trying to illustrate that most folks don't swim straight 1600+.

Do some light reading and you'll find it.

If I were you I'd look into total immersion. It got me from 25 yards at a time to over 1600 in a few months.

Swimming is all about technique. By swimming shorter distances, say 100, then taking a short rest, say 15-45, seconds you can make every 100 the best technique possible. If you swim past your good technique threshold you'll just start to ingrain bad habits. That's why many recommend 4-30min swims a week as opposed to 2-60 min swims. Once you become confident in your stroke and breathing swimming 100s allows you to up the pace and learn to swim faster.

Doing both races in one weekend might be a bit much. However, you're far enough out that with a solid training plan you could possibly do the olympic distance race. You could always train for the Olympic and if you don't feel ready do the sprint. It's a lot to consider.
2015-03-27 9:40 PM
in reply to: never DNF again

User image

Master
8247
50002000100010010025
Eugene, Oregon
Bronze member
Subject: RE: Tri Training
If you look at most of the training programs on this site or others, most of them don't have you doing all three disciplines in one day more than one or two times in the whole program. The main goal of doing that would probably be to practice transitions and dial in nutrition, hydration, etc. as race day approaches. You will see maybe 1-2 back to back workouts most weeks, usually bike-run as that is what most people struggle with, occasionally swim-bike. But most workouts will be stand-alone, either single or double, because those allow you to develop solid fitness in each of the disciples without undue risk of excess fatigue and injury.

I'm fairly FOP in my age group and, thanks to my strengths on the run and swim, have podiumed at almost every race I've entered, and I think I do MAYBE 2-3 workouts a year where I do all three sports. Probably at least one of those would be on vacation, just for the heck of it, because I was biking and found a nice swimming lake or something. The others would have been either to practice transitions or figure out hydration/nutrition, or because I needed to double up workouts due to other committments. Six of my training days each week are either two separate workouts in two separate disciples, or a single, longer workout in one discipline. Most days I have a higher intensity workout in one sport, but almost never in two or all thee. If you build solid fitness in all three, there's little need for back to back workouts except to practice technical skills like transitions or (for beginners, mainly) get used to how your body responds to the shifts between events.
2015-03-28 8:06 PM
in reply to: never DNF again


3

Subject: RE: Tri Training
Hi, You have gotten some great advice and you might not need this, but I wanted to pass it along in case you might be interested. There is going to be a triathlon training clinic on Saturday, April 25th at Albany Community Pool, Albany, OR. That is about an hour and a half south of Portland. Angela Smith is conducting the triathlon training clinic. She is a five-time Ironman Finisher and is going to offer great advice as well as hands-on training in the pool. She is addressing many of the questions you asked about and will be available for Q&A as well. It might be a good opportunity.

The cost for the clinic is $30, but if you sign up for the Tri for Life on June 13, the cost is only $20. Either way a great day for valuable information and hands on training. If you are interested the website to register is www.optionsprc.org.
2015-03-28 10:40 PM
in reply to: never DNF again

User image

Veteran
495
100100100100252525
Calgary
Subject: RE: Tri Training
As others have said most workouts should consist of one event - don't try to do everything back to back to back.

It sounds like you're really excited and enthusiastic about triathlon which is great. However, I think this may be causing you to overdo some of the training and you should be careful about that. Forget about embracing pain - it's better to avoid it. If you stick with triathlon and follow a sensible training plan you will eventually find your share of suffering in training and in races. (Hopefully not in from injury but unfortunately there are no guarantees.)

It sounds like you're doing all of you're training indoors on machines? I don't know how much previous experience you have running and riding - if it's not a lot I would recommend that you include some outdoor training. It will help with bike handling, but more importantly (for me anyways) it's a lot more enjoyable.

If I could only provide one piece of advice it would be to make sure you have fun.
Don
2015-03-29 11:04 AM
in reply to: 0

User image

Master
2406
2000100100100100
Bellevue, WA
Subject: RE: Tri Training

You said "I don't know if I am training smart" and you said "honestly I don't  know what they hell I'm doing", which pretty much answers the first statement, doesn't it? 

You need overall education about triathlon. I strongly suggest you get at a copy of Joe Friel's The Triathlete's Training Bible (Amazon) and/or Dan Golding's Triathlon For Beginners: Everything you need to know about training, nutrition, kit, motivation, racing, and much more (Amazon).  When I started triathlon back in 2003, and got serious for my first Ironman, I bought several books on triathlon and several each on the individual sports of swimming, cycling, and running.

As part of that you should learn about the basic principles of training.  You should learn about specificity, progressive overload, recovery and adaptation, and the like. Different people have slightly different words and principles, but the basics are covered in this article on About.com. After reading that, you'll probably agree that your current self-directed approach isn't following well-established exercise science principles.

You said "I don't know what is pain to embrace vs preventing injury".  People say "listen to your body" all the time, but that's not helpful if you can't understand the language your body is speaking. You should read Johns Hopkins Sports Medicine Patient Guide to “Good Pain” and ”Bad Pain” for Athletes, which I think is a pretty good overview of how to get started understanding what your body is saying.

All that said, if you can swim 1260 in 30 min, ride for 30 minutes at 18 mph, and run 3 miles at 10min, all separately if not sequentially, then you are well on your way. It sounds like you're just basically pushing too hard right now.  Your goal should be to arrive at the swim start in July healthy, confident, and injury free. You have all of April, May and June.  Educate yourself, get a training plan together, listen to your body, have some patience and endurance (pun intended), and you'll be fine.

ETA: I suggest you don't get your running gate analyzed if you have pain, instead get a PT to look at you not a running coach. I'm a big fan of something called Active Release Technique. I've finished 8 marathons and 10 Ironmans, and I've had my share of leg issues. ART fixes me right up. Check their website and find a local practitioner. http://www.activerelease.com/



Edited by brucemorgan 2015-03-29 11:25 AM


2015-03-29 11:23 AM
in reply to: 0

User image

Master
2406
2000100100100100
Bellevue, WA
Subject: RE: Tri Training

Originally posted by never DNF again So much appreciate all the feedback and advice. I checked out the 16week Olympic training plan above and think that sounds like a good training plan for me at this stage of my fitness level. While the plan is to do a sprint, the Oly is also happening the next day (July 25/26). If following the 16 wk training plan, would my considering doing both events back to back be ridiculous??? I'm really falling in love with this woman named Tri Athlon !!! :-)

I suggest you find a different Olympic race in August, or skip the sprint and just do the Olympic. A sprint on Saturday and an Olympic distance race on Sunday is a disastrously bad plan for someone at your fitness level. I would approach back to back races like that as I would a half Ironman, and you're not ready for a HIM..



Edited by brucemorgan 2015-03-29 11:24 AM
2015-03-31 2:03 PM
in reply to: donw

User image


11

Subject: RE: Tri Training
Thank you Don, I am really excited for all the possibilities. Indeed I have not had a lot of outdoors training so I need to get out outside to ride and run more.
2015-03-31 2:07 PM
in reply to: brucemorgan

User image


11

Subject: RE: Tri Training
Great advice Bruce, lots of info to look into.

Thank you, very much appreciate it all!
2015-03-31 8:49 PM
in reply to: never DNF again

User image

Veteran
2297
2000100100252525
Great White North
Subject: RE: Tri Training
Just going to echo what others are saying.

1. Race simulation efforts like you described are rare events. Bricks are more common (swim/bike or most commonly bike/run).

2. You need swimming help, big time. 1250m in 30min is slow. You are in need of technical help. Inefficient swimmers burn up a lot of matches on race day. And straight swims are not the ideal session.

3. Base endurance matters
2015-04-02 12:40 PM
in reply to: simpsonbo

User image


11

Subject: RE: Tri Training
Thanks Simpsonbo.............Really appreciate the feedback.

I'm going to join my local masters swim club and get that swim coaching I so badly need!


New Thread
General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Tri Training Rss Feed  
RELATED POSTS

Tri training & marathon training

Started by sjgauge
Views: 1578 Posts: 18

2008-02-23 11:06 AM riorio

weight training/tri training

Started by tanyab
Views: 1450 Posts: 10

2007-06-06 10:43 PM chirunner134

Tri Training and 1/2 Marathon Training.

Started by Crazypop
Views: 742 Posts: 3

2005-03-07 5:12 PM Crazypop

Weight training while Tri training?

Started by sty
Views: 1213 Posts: 3

2005-01-06 10:21 AM tupuppy

tri training and marathon training

Started by cece
Views: 1622 Posts: 11

2004-08-27 2:31 PM the bear
RELATED ARTICLES
date : March 4, 2009
author : jasongootman
comments : 0
In this third part, we discuss bike workout types and how they relate to power training. Power analysis of workouts included. Presented by Tri-Hard coaching and Fit Werx.
 
date : October 15, 2008
author : AMSSM
comments : 0
I've had shoulder problems since the very beginning of tri training. I did see an ortho who took x-rays and said I have a type II acromioin. I'd love to know some stretches to help my flexibility.
date : October 9, 2007
author : RaytownPete
comments : 0
”Dang! That water’s cold!” immediately hit me. In these first few seconds, my triathlon goal sunk quicker than my legs and torso had. I now knew this was going to be a lot harder than I imagined.
 
date : December 31, 2006
author : docgill
comments : 0
This life of mine is not so different from yours. It has a multitude of similarities. I suffer from uncertainty, I get nervous at the thought of registering and when getting to the starting line.
date : May 1, 2006
author : acbadger
comments : 9
I am not going to buy a tri-suit before my first tri - I want to make sure I am going to stick with this before I spend a lot of money on it so I want to figure out what will work best.
 
date : November 27, 2005
author : spetremears
comments : 0
9 weeks after my first bike ride, 5 months after my first swim and 13 months after my surgery I entered the Nelson week Tri a Tri !
date : September 3, 2005
author : aloufan
comments : 0
I couldn't believe that my splits kept getting lower! I started to run harder after I passed the "5 km" sign and picked a few people that I wanted to pass.
 
date : September 14, 2004
author : tri_again
comments : 0
How to juggle life's demands with triathlon training needs.