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3 disciplines but not equal (Page 5)
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 2015-04-03 8:20 AM in reply to: marcag |
Master  2912    ...at home in The ATL |  Subject: RE: 3 disciplines but not equalOriginally posted by marcag Originally posted by TankBoy I think a perfect example was 2011 70.3 World champs. Laurent Jalabert, TDF stage winner, came out of the water about 8min down and of course killed everyone on the bike and ended up 3rd. He beat Bryan Dunn by 1 spot. As a HIM he came 3rd. As an Oly, he would have come probably 4th of 5th. Yes, you can have a weaker swim IF you can ride like Jalabert and the longer the course. Not many can ride like him. He swam a 38min HIM. Pretty bad The guy that came 5th behind Bryan would have been 3rd in an Oly. Originally posted by simpsonbo Originally posted by Goosedog Ditto for Triathlon Canada. Time standards for Talent ID, Training Centres, Elite cards are all a swim/run formula. Originally posted by Left Brain Cycling isn't even a benchmark that is used by USAT to mark triathlon talent potential. So what sort of attributes are they looking for? I assume speed in 400m+ in swim and/or 5k+ run (or even down to 800m). Or something else? Bo and LB, am I mis-remembering that until somewhat recently cycling actually did used to be one of the benchmarks (at least for USAT) in youth and junior talent, but was dropped because of lack of equipment accessibly (primarily power meters) and not simply because it was not a good measure of future potential? FWIW that in no way changes my own experience that the swim matters significantly in a direct way at the sprint and Olympic distance, as well as significantly (albeit collaterally) in long-course racing. I do prefer to race against others that continue to believe differently. So really what you are saying Marc is that there is actually something to be said about Cross Fit, at least for long course racing? |
| 2015-04-03 8:21 AM in reply to: marcag |
Extreme Veteran 3025  Maryland | Subject: RE: 3 disciplines but not equal Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by TankBoy I think a perfect example was 2011 70.3 World champs. Laurent Jalabert, TDF stage winner, came out of the water about 8min down and of course killed everyone on the bike and ended up 3rd. He beat Bryan Dunn by 1 spot. As a HIM he came 3rd. As an Oly, he would have come probably 4th of 5th. Yes, you can have a weaker swim IF you can ride like Jalabert and the longer the course. Not many can ride like him. He swam a 38min HIM. Pretty bad The guy that came 5th behind Bryan would have been 3rd in an Oly. Originally posted by simpsonbo Originally posted by Goosedog Ditto for Triathlon Canada. Time standards for Talent ID, Training Centres, Elite cards are all a swim/run formula. Originally posted by Left Brain Cycling isn't even a benchmark that is used by USAT to mark triathlon talent potential. So what sort of attributes are they looking for? I assume speed in 400m+ in swim and/or 5k+ run (or even down to 800m). Or something else? Bo and LB, am I mis-remembering that until somewhat recently cycling actually did used to be one of the benchmarks (at least for USAT) in youth and junior talent, but was dropped because of lack of equipment accessibly (primarily power meters) and not simply because it was not a good measure of future potential? FWIW that in no way changes my own experience that the swim matters significantly in a direct way at the sprint and Olympic distance, as well as significantly (albeit collaterally) in long-course racing. I do prefer to race against others that continue to believe differently. in an olympic he would not have been 4th or 5th if he lost 6 minutes in the swim. you also fail to mention his run. lets also reflect that his PROFESSIONAL CYCLING CAREER IN WHICH HE WON A TOUR STAGE. Places him at the very very very very pointy end, unlike us mere mortals. I'll not go into the long term effects of a career using PED's to train either.....but knowing the era I think it would be a valid point. |
| 2015-04-03 8:35 AM in reply to: 0 |
Master 10208 Northern IL | Subject: RE: 3 disciplines but not equal Originally posted by dmiller5 Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by TankBoy I think a perfect example was 2011 70.3 World champs. Laurent Jalabert, TDF stage winner, came out of the water about 8min down and of course killed everyone on the bike and ended up 3rd. He beat Bryan Dunn by 1 spot. As a HIM he came 3rd. As an Oly, he would have come probably 4th of 5th. Yes, you can have a weaker swim IF you can ride like Jalabert and the longer the course. Not many can ride like him. He swam a 38min HIM. Pretty bad The guy that came 5th behind Bryan would have been 3rd in an Oly. Originally posted by simpsonbo Originally posted by Goosedog Ditto for Triathlon Canada. Time standards for Talent ID, Training Centres, Elite cards are all a swim/run formula. Originally posted by Left Brain Cycling isn't even a benchmark that is used by USAT to mark triathlon talent potential. So what sort of attributes are they looking for? I assume speed in 400m+ in swim and/or 5k+ run (or even down to 800m). Or something else? Bo and LB, am I mis-remembering that until somewhat recently cycling actually did used to be one of the benchmarks (at least for USAT) in youth and junior talent, but was dropped because of lack of equipment accessibly (primarily power meters) and not simply because it was not a good measure of future potential? FWIW that in no way changes my own experience that the swim matters significantly in a direct way at the sprint and Olympic distance, as well as significantly (albeit collaterally) in long-course racing. I do prefer to race against others that continue to believe differently. in an olympic he would not have been 4th or 5th if he lost 6 minutes in the swim. you also fail to mention his run. lets also reflect that his PROFESSIONAL CYCLING CAREER IN WHICH HE WON A TOUR STAGE. Places him at the very very very very pointy end, unlike us mere mortals. I'll not go into the long term effects of a career using PED's to train either.....but knowing the era I think it would be a valid point. Think the point of using Jalabert is to show how exceptionally good one has to be elsewhere to make up for such a deficiency. ETA: his run was in the area of the other contestants of similar placing. Edited by brigby1 2015-04-03 8:37 AM |
| 2015-04-03 8:39 AM in reply to: dmiller5 |
Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: 3 disciplines but not equal Originally posted by dmiller5 Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by TankBoy I think a perfect example was 2011 70.3 World champs. Laurent Jalabert, TDF stage winner, came out of the water about 8min down and of course killed everyone on the bike and ended up 3rd. He beat Bryan Dunn by 1 spot. As a HIM he came 3rd. As an Oly, he would have come probably 4th of 5th. Yes, you can have a weaker swim IF you can ride like Jalabert and the longer the course. Not many can ride like him. He swam a 38min HIM. Pretty bad The guy that came 5th behind Bryan would have been 3rd in an Oly. Originally posted by simpsonbo Originally posted by Goosedog Ditto for Triathlon Canada. Time standards for Talent ID, Training Centres, Elite cards are all a swim/run formula. Originally posted by Left Brain Cycling isn't even a benchmark that is used by USAT to mark triathlon talent potential. So what sort of attributes are they looking for? I assume speed in 400m+ in swim and/or 5k+ run (or even down to 800m). Or something else? Bo and LB, am I mis-remembering that until somewhat recently cycling actually did used to be one of the benchmarks (at least for USAT) in youth and junior talent, but was dropped because of lack of equipment accessibly (primarily power meters) and not simply because it was not a good measure of future potential? FWIW that in no way changes my own experience that the swim matters significantly in a direct way at the sprint and Olympic distance, as well as significantly (albeit collaterally) in long-course racing. I do prefer to race against others that continue to believe differently. in an olympic he would not have been 4th or 5th if he lost 6 minutes in the swim. you also fail to mention his run. lets also reflect that his PROFESSIONAL CYCLING CAREER IN WHICH HE WON A TOUR STAGE. Places him at the very very very very pointy end, unlike us mere mortals. I'll not go into the long term effects of a career using PED's to train either.....but knowing the era I think it would be a valid point. I meant he would have been 5th against those guys. My point, which I believe was the same as you is that at Oly distance, you can't make up a really bad swim no matter how good a cyclist you are. You can't get much better cyclist than him and you can't be much worst of a swimmer at that end of the field. His run was actually pretty good. The winners of course were the well balanced guys with a run edge. (Screenshot 2015-04-03 06.39.54.png) Attachments ---------------- Screenshot 2015-04-03 06.39.54.png (59KB - 1 downloads) |
| 2015-04-03 8:43 AM in reply to: TankBoy |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: 3 disciplines but not equal Originally posted by TankBoy Originally posted by simpsonbo Originally posted by Goosedog Ditto for Triathlon Canada. Time standards for Talent ID, Training Centres, Elite cards are all a swim/run formula. Originally posted by Left Brain Cycling isn't even a benchmark that is used by USAT to mark triathlon talent potential. So what sort of attributes are they looking for? I assume speed in 400m+ in swim and/or 5k+ run (or even down to 800m). Or something else? Bo and LB, am I mis-remembering that until somewhat recently cycling actually did used to be one of the benchmarks (at least for USAT) in youth and junior talent, but was dropped because of lack of equipment accessibly (primarily power meters) and not simply because it was not a good measure of future potential? FWIW that in no way changes my own experience that the swim matters significantly in a direct way at the sprint and Olympic distance, as well as significantly (albeit collaterally) in long-course racing. I do prefer to race against others that continue to believe differently. In the 4 years we have been involved in the youth/jr elite circuit I have never seen cycling benchmarks. The kids get tested a couple of times per year for FTP but the emphasis is on bike handling skills and learning to race "crit style". There is marked differences in kids who can put down the same amount of power but have differing cycling skill sets. My son is a prime example. He typically beats most kids in TT's and AG triathlon cycling splits....but he can get his arse handed to him in DL racing depending on the course. It's the same for many aspiring elite racers. So maybe the benchmarks are not that important in cycling since skill is a MAJOR component. That being said, equipment is probably not an issue at this point.....almost all of the kids at least have a PT wheel and many have vector pedals and other PM's. |
| 2015-04-03 8:43 AM in reply to: sactowntriathlete |
| 225 | Subject: RE: 3 disciplines but not equal I did a short race last year that was more balanced. 1/2 mile swim 5.5 mile bike, and 2.2 mile run. It was suited to my strengths, and I'd love to do a longer version, but I suspect that it wouldn't appeal to very many. |
| 2015-04-03 8:46 AM in reply to: bigevilgrape |
Extreme Veteran 2261 Ridgeland, Mississippi | Subject: RE: 3 disciplines but not equal Originally posted by bigevilgrape I did a short race last year that was more balanced. 1/2 mile swim 5.5 mile bike, and 2.2 mile run. It was suited to my strengths, and I'd love to do a longer version, but I suspect that it wouldn't appeal to very many. There's a local Olympic here that's offering a "sprint distance" with a 1/2 mile swim, 40k bike, 5k run. That would be a race that truly favors the cyclist. |
| 2015-04-03 8:51 AM in reply to: 0 |
Member 5452 NC | Subject: RE: 3 disciplines but not equal Originally posted by TankBoy wait, THAT is thing you find funny about Canadian athletics? Ever better, the announcer is pronouncing the University of Missouri as the University of Misery. Edited by Goosedog 2015-04-03 8:51 AM |
| 2015-04-03 9:12 AM in reply to: Goosedog |
Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: 3 disciplines but not equal Originally posted by Goosedog Originally posted by simpsonbo Ditto for Triathlon Canada. Time standards for Talent ID, Training Centres, Elite cards are all a swim/run formula. I'm live-streaming the Team Canada Trials today. Important question, what's up with Lane 0 being a thing? My niece is doing 2 events. She just turned 15. |
| 2015-04-03 9:13 AM in reply to: marcag |
Member 5452 NC | Subject: RE: 3 disciplines but not equal Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by Goosedog Originally posted by simpsonbo Ditto for Triathlon Canada. Time standards for Talent ID, Training Centres, Elite cards are all a swim/run formula. I'm live-streaming the Team Canada Trials today. Important question, what's up with Lane 0 being a thing? My niece is doing 2 events. She just turned 15. Awesome! Is she swimming today? |
| 2015-04-03 9:26 AM in reply to: marcag |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: 3 disciplines but not equal Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by Goosedog My niece is doing 2 events. She just turned 15. Originally posted by simpsonbo Ditto for Triathlon Canada. Time standards for Talent ID, Training Centres, Elite cards are all a swim/run formula. I'm live-streaming the Team Canada Trials today. Important question, what's up with Lane 0 being a thing? Is she still running at all? |
| 2015-04-03 10:08 AM in reply to: 0 |
| 1502 Katy, Texas | Subject: RE: 3 disciplines but not equal Man this thread has taken a life of its own. Between work and training, I can barely keep up! Regardless, it has totally shifted my thinking in a good way. Here are my takeaways: 1. Is triathlon evenly balanced between the three sports? No, not at all. 2. Does it matter? 2.a.To the FOP and elite? No. You have to be strong at all three to be either. 2.b.Does it matter to the rest of us? Yes, depending on your strong discipline. I think this was shown in my little math exercise where the top 3 all stayed the same in a "balanced" race but I went up three spots to 7th....but does that get me to FOP? No, so it doesn't matter IMHO. What I'm taking away from this is that if I want to reach my goal, which is to be one of the guys jockeying for OA podium at local races provided a ringer like one of LB's kids doesn't show up, then I've got to shore up my biking and running. That's the only way to the FOP (local version) that I want to be. This helps me a lot to not dwell on the imbalance, but realize it doesn't matter to where I'd like to go, so I'm cool with it. Edited by 3mar 2015-04-03 10:11 AM |
| 2015-04-03 10:21 AM in reply to: 3mar |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: 3 disciplines but not equal Originally posted by 3mar Man this thread has taken a life of its own. Between work and training, I can barely keep up! Regardless, it has totally shifted my thinking in a good way. Here are my takeaways: 1. Is triathlon evenly balanced between the three sports? No, not at all. 2. Does it matter? 2.a.To the FOP and elite? No. You have to be strong at all three to be either. 2.b.Does it matter to the rest of us? Yes, depending on your strong discipline. I think this was shown in my little math exercise where the top 3 all stayed the same in a "balanced" race but I went up three spots to 7th....but does that get me to FOP? No, so it doesn't matter IMHO. What I'm taking away from this is that if I want to reach my goal, which is to be one of the guys jockeying for OA podium at local races provided a ringer like one of LB's kids doesn't show up, then I've got to shore up my biking and running. That's the only way to the FOP (local version) that I want to be. This helps me a lot to not dwell on the imbalance, but realize it doesn't matter to where I'd like to go, so I'm cool with it. Provided the injury bug or something stupid doesn't get you, I bet you reach your goal. You have SO MUCH room for improvement on top of an already decent swim and you're already pushing the front guys in your local races. Good luck and have fun! |
| 2015-04-03 10:58 AM in reply to: Goosedog |
Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: 3 disciplines but not equal Originally posted by Goosedog Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by Goosedog Originally posted by simpsonbo Ditto for Triathlon Canada. Time standards for Talent ID, Training Centres, Elite cards are all a swim/run formula. I'm live-streaming the Team Canada Trials today. Important question, what's up with Lane 0 being a thing? My niece is doing 2 events. She just turned 15. Awesome! Is she swimming today? 400IM and 50 free, so I don't know. |
| 2015-04-03 11:29 AM in reply to: marcag |
Pro 5761 Bartlett, TN | Subject: RE: 3 disciplines but not equal This thread reminded of a couple of things I first learned or heard (probably from this site) about triathlons.
1. A race is never won in the swim and 2. you ride for show, but you run for dough |
| 2015-04-03 11:45 AM in reply to: 0 |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: 3 disciplines but not equal Originally posted by jford2309 This thread reminded of a couple of things I first learned or heard (probably from this site) about triathlons.
1. A race is never won in the swim and 2. you ride for show, but you run for dough That's how triathlon has changed.....sometimes, at the top end, a triathlon IS won in the swim. When that phrase was coined, back in the 80's, there were very few people who could call themselves good at all three events......not anymore. If you want to win you have to be.....and sometimes the swim is the difference in a Sprint or Oly. Edited by Left Brain 2015-04-03 11:46 AM |
| 2015-04-03 11:46 AM in reply to: Left Brain |
Extreme Veteran 3025 Maryland | Subject: RE: 3 disciplines but not equal Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by jford2309 This thread reminded of a couple of things I first learned or heard (probably from this site) about triathlons.
1. A race is never won in the swim and 2. you ride for show, but you run for dough That's how triathlon has changed.....sometimes, at the top end, a triathlon IS won in the swim. When that phrase was coined, back in the 80's, there were very few people who could call themselves good at all three events......not anymore. If you want to win you have to be.....and sometimes the swim is the difference. I'd say you can "win" a triathlon in any event.... as long as you can back up your best event with a strong showing in both of the others. |
| 2015-04-03 3:33 PM in reply to: Goosedog |
Veteran 2297 Great White North | Subject: RE: 3 disciplines but not equal Originally posted by Goosedog Originally posted by simpsonbo Ditto for Triathlon Canada. Time standards for Talent ID, Training Centres, Elite cards are all a swim/run formula. I'm live-streaming the Team Canada Trials today. Important question, what's up with Lane 0 being a thing? In a 10 lane competition pool outside lanes are marked 0 and 9. That way the traditional seeding appears to be the same as an 8 lane pool... 1st in lane 4, 2nd in 5 and so on. At Masters worlds it was the same thing. I raced the 800 from lane zero. Our Jr Women will have a great 4x100 Free Relay come Jr Worlds in Singapore. |
| 2015-04-06 9:23 AM in reply to: simpsonbo |
Member 5452 NC | Subject: RE: 3 disciplines but not equal Originally posted by simpsonbo In a 10 lane competition pool outside lanes are marked 0 and 9. That way the traditional seeding appears to be the same as an 8 lane pool... 1st in lane 4, 2nd in 5 and so on. At Masters worlds it was the same thing. I raced the 800 from lane zero. Our Jr Women will have a great 4x100 Free Relay come Jr Worlds in Singapore. Thanks. Makes perfect sense. |
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