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2015-05-08 4:48 PM


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Subject: performance during training
Just a theoretical/experience question. If you are in the latter half of a training plan, lets just say week 7-8 of a 10 week plan, and you go out and do a race simulation(bike/run brick). In your experience or opinion, would you expect your performance(speed/pace) to be significantly less compared to what you will be on race day? I'm just thinking during your plan you are probably carrying a lot of fatigue as compared to race day when you should be rested. I'm probably going to attempt this tomorrow so I'm wondering what to expect.


2015-05-08 4:50 PM
in reply to: mchadcota2

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Subject: RE: performance during training

If it's actually a simulation then your rest should be setup to where you get a good snapshot of where your performance is without worrying about fatigue.

2015-05-08 4:58 PM
in reply to: msteiner

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Subject: RE: performance during training

Originally posted by msteiner

If it's actually a simulation then your rest should be setup to where you get a good snapshot of where your performance is without worrying about fatigue.

Agreed if it's a true simulation.

Some people, however, will often refer to a test of fitness (as opposed to a full on simulation) as such - not sure if the OP means a simulation or a full distance test during training.  If doing the latter, then expect times more like a race that you'd "train through," or slightly slower times given that you'll likely carry fatigue (assuming the difference isn't distance but taking the time to taper - if you do a full taper, then it's as Matt says above).

Another, and I think more common, approach is to go for shorter distances than your full race but at race target paces.  For me, this is much more informative as to my fitness than trying to go the full distance of any given race in training...

Again, agree with the above and just adding a couple twists - not sure which approach you're taking, though.

Matt

2015-05-08 5:53 PM
in reply to: mchadcota2


439
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nashville, Tennessee
Subject: RE: performance during training
i said race simulation but what i really mean is doing a hard bike/run brick with fairly similar distances as race. No rest, just the end of a training week. So I should expect to be slightly slower than what I would be on race day?
2015-05-08 6:04 PM
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Subject: RE: performance during training
Originally posted by mcmanusclan5

Another, and I think more common, approach is to go for shorter distances than your full race but at race target paces.  For me, this is much more informative as to my fitness than trying to go the full distance of any given race in training...




This*
Otherwise it's an all out effort on a non-tapered prepped body that ends up requiring more rest afterwards, and or causes an injury

Not to mention I can never simulate the competitive adrenaline boost I get on race day

Edited by TJHammer 2015-05-08 6:06 PM
2015-05-08 6:05 PM
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Subject: RE: performance during training
In training, without the excitement and adrenaline of race day I don't think I could get close to race day performance.
Don

Edited by donw 2015-05-08 6:10 PM


2015-05-08 6:14 PM
in reply to: mchadcota2

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Subject: RE: performance during training
Originally posted by mchadcota2

Just a theoretical/experience question. If you are in the latter half of a training plan, lets just say week 7-8 of a 10 week plan, and you go out and do a race simulation(bike/run brick). In your experience or opinion, would you expect your performance(speed/pace) to be significantly less compared to what you will be on race day? I'm just thinking during your plan you are probably carrying a lot of fatigue as compared to race day when you should be rested. I'm probably going to attempt this tomorrow so I'm wondering what to expect.


If for example your race is a HIM, you should be able to bike the full distance at race pace and run 30-45min at race pace.

Not swimming and only doing half the run should make this possible, even if fatigued.
2015-05-08 8:04 PM
in reply to: marcag

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Subject: RE: performance during training

Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by mchadcota2 Just a theoretical/experience question. If you are in the latter half of a training plan, lets just say week 7-8 of a 10 week plan, and you go out and do a race simulation(bike/run brick). In your experience or opinion, would you expect your performance(speed/pace) to be significantly less compared to what you will be on race day? I'm just thinking during your plan you are probably carrying a lot of fatigue as compared to race day when you should be rested. I'm probably going to attempt this tomorrow so I'm wondering what to expect.
If for example your race is a HIM, you should be able to bike the full distance at race pace and run 30-45min at race pace. Not swimming and only doing half the run should make this possible, even if fatigued.

Spot on.  I spaced on the OP saying only b/r (molto mea culpa).  

Agree that you could do the full bike if no swim and shorten the run with race pace on both (although **for me** even if I can hit the race pace on the foreshortened distance, the run hurts more than the first half hour running in a race - not as much as the last half hour, but more than the first bit usually would on the bike).  

Matt

2015-05-08 10:26 PM
in reply to: #5114037


439
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nashville, Tennessee
Subject: RE: performance during training
What I'm asking is if tomorrow I go out n do a 30 mi hard ride and I avg X mph, should i expect to be not near as strong as I will be on race day because of rest?
2015-05-08 11:34 PM
in reply to: mchadcota2

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Subject: RE: performance during training

Originally posted by mchadcota2 What I'm asking is if tomorrow I go out n do a 30 mi hard ride and I avg X mph, should i expect to be not near as strong as I will be on race day because of rest?

With a well designed and executed training plan you should feel much stronger on race day after a proper taper.  You could still have a good strong ride late in your plan especially if it is less than race distance but come race day you should be at the top of your game.

2015-05-09 10:37 AM
in reply to: marcag

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Subject: RE: performance during training
Originally posted by marcag

Originally posted by mchadcota2

Just a theoretical/experience question. If you are in the latter half of a training plan, lets just say week 7-8 of a 10 week plan, and you go out and do a race simulation(bike/run brick). In your experience or opinion, would you expect your performance(speed/pace) to be significantly less compared to what you will be on race day? I'm just thinking during your plan you are probably carrying a lot of fatigue as compared to race day when you should be rested. I'm probably going to attempt this tomorrow so I'm wondering what to expect.


If for example your race is a HIM, you should be able to bike the full distance at race pace and run 30-45min at race pace.

Not swimming and only doing half the run should make this possible, even if fatigued.


The answer to your question from my experience and observations is, it depends. The HIM example above is a great point, I know lots of people who could execute that brick as described but I know that I couldn't (or perhaps should say wouldn't/shouldn't without a tremendous amount of motivation and then recovery cost). For me, the workout above would look more like: 2.5hr ride with 3 x 30min @ race effort & 30-45min run, first half fairly easy, second half at race pace (for example an out and back with the back portion 1-3 minutes faster than the out).

Let us know how it went.


2015-05-09 10:57 AM
in reply to: mikec123


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Subject: RE: performance during training
Well it did not go to well. It is very frustrating. I've been racing for 4 years now. I've had one goal for the longest time, hit 23 mph in a sprint/olympic distance race. I've been at around 22 mph for the last couple of years. After trying different training approaches over the years, I finally decided to break down and get a power meter. For the last 3 months or so I've been using trainerroad(sustained build plan) with my wahoo kickr. This is the first time I've used a structured bike plan. It has been extremely tough but I've felt like I was making progress. After the first 4 weeks, my FTP test improved from 258 to 272. I'm sure those numbers are not an accurate reflection of my fitness but it should be a fool proof way of measuring improvement. So I thought I was getting stronger. I do almost all of my biking on the trainer and every so often I ride outside hoping to see some improvement in my speed. Today I was slower than I have been in a while. I was around 21.5 mph for 20 miles. So now excuse time. Either using the trainerroad plan has taken me a step backward or, I'm just worn down from all the training. I'm at the end of week 7 in an 8 week plan. Next week is a recovery week. This last 3 months is the first time I have actually logged my training and have been very good about increasing my training load week to week. So maybe at this stage in the plan(right before recovery week), I'm worn down and needing rest. After my bike ride, I ran about 25 miles and could not make myself go. Don't know if it was just lack of motivation or if I was that worn out. Anyway sorry for the rambling but wanted to share my frustration.
2015-05-10 8:13 AM
in reply to: mchadcota2

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Subject: RE: performance during training
I am always significantly faster on race day. I get a lot of energy out of the nerves and excitement of the crowd. I read that you have to "trust the training". Of course, everyone is different and there are a lot of variables that can affect someones performance, but I wouldn't feel defeated.

The last few weeks before a race, I always get discouraged. My energy is low. My pace seems slow. But, once I get to the race my training usually shines through. I did a HM yesterday. Last week, I could barely run an 11:30 m/m pace. On my way to the event town, I was complaining because I didn't even know if I could finish and was extremely discouraged. Yesterday, I did a 9:20 m/m pace. Just slightly slower than goal but was still a PR. So hold your head up.
2015-05-10 10:55 AM
in reply to: #5114086


439
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nashville, Tennessee
Subject: RE: performance during training
Thanks a lot for that post. Definitely makes me feel a little better. I just always expect be faster n faster on the bike during my training. Am I the only one who does this? Go out on the bike every so often to see how fast I am?
2015-05-10 12:18 PM
in reply to: mchadcota2

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Subject: RE: performance during training
If you are training with power you should worry more about hitting your watts, keeping effort smooth and not a specific mph goal. Way to many variables on any given day on any given course.

Nothing wrong with trainerroad.
2015-05-10 12:24 PM
in reply to: mchadcota2

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Subject: RE: performance during training
I think speed is a tough way to really judge fitness and race readiness. Essentially, performance is all about fitness and freshness. In theory, you should be getting more fit as you progress through a training plan. On the 7th week, just before you enter into the taper week, fitness should be at an all time high. However, freshness will be low. This is the point of the taper week, to bring freshness back up, so that you can get the most out of the fitness you've just built.

So to answer your question, you should be performing better come race day (after the taper week) than you feel during the last week of a tough block of training. This is not to say that you were less fit after that tough block of training or that you are going backwards, you're just not fresh. Taking the volume and intensity down a bit with a rest week should bring that freshness back up and have you riding strong for your event.


2015-05-10 9:12 PM
in reply to: donw

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Subject: RE: performance during training
Better off doing a track session after a bike interval session... run for the splits.
2015-05-10 9:30 PM
in reply to: donw

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Subject: RE: performance during training
Originally posted by donw

In training, without the excitement and adrenaline of race day I don't think I could get close to race day performance.
Don


Agreed !00% with this one.
2015-05-10 9:40 PM
in reply to: mchadcota2

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Subject: RE: performance during training
Originally posted by mchadcota2

Just a theoretical/experience question. If you are in the latter half of a training plan, lets just say week 7-8 of a 10 week plan, and you go out and do a race simulation(bike/run brick). In your experience or opinion, would you expect your performance(speed/pace) to be significantly less compared to what you will be on race day? I'm just thinking during your plan you are probably carrying a lot of fatigue as compared to race day when you should be rested. I'm probably going to attempt this tomorrow so I'm wondering what to expect.


Consider doing a sim at "race pace" but only about 2/3 of race distance, since your glycogen stores won't be at race day levels..you'll run out much sooner than if you were tapered. Tapering for a race does add speed, and part of that has to do with not depleting fuel storage.

You alreayd know you're not tapered, so it makes little sense to go full race distance and push for your best pace...do that on race day.

Choose one of 2 other options...full distance but easier pace than you expect, to confince yourself you can do the distance, or up to 2/3 race distance at faster pace...or more fun yet, 1/6 race distance repeated 4 times for a bike run bike run bike run bike run. <-covers a lot of stuff in one workout
2015-05-11 11:32 AM
in reply to: mchadcota2

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Subject: RE: performance during training

Most of the answers focused on the idea of a "race simulation".  I get the impression that your real question was more about how training stress, fatigue, and performance are related.

Yes, your performance will decline during training even though your fitness is increasing.  This is because of accumulated fatigue.  You're not "fresh".  After resting (tapering) your performance will increase.

 

2015-05-11 11:40 AM
in reply to: TriMyBest

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Subject: RE: performance during training
Originally posted by TriMyBest

Most of the answers focused on the idea of a "race simulation".  I get the impression that your real question was more about how training stress, fatigue, and performance are related.

Yes, your performance will decline during training even though your fitness is increasing.  This is because of accumulated fatigue.  You're not "fresh".  After resting (tapering) your performance will increase.

 




This may help on the idea of load, fatigue and performance:

http://home.trainingpeaks.com/blog/article/what-is-the-performance-...

Shane


2015-05-11 1:41 PM
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Subject: RE: performance during training

Originally posted by gsmacleod
Originally posted by TriMyBest

Most of the answers focused on the idea of a "race simulation".  I get the impression that your real question was more about how training stress, fatigue, and performance are related.

Yes, your performance will decline during training even though your fitness is increasing.  This is because of accumulated fatigue.  You're not "fresh".  After resting (tapering) your performance will increase.

 

This may help on the idea of load, fatigue and performance: http://home.trainingpeaks.com/blog/article/what-is-the-performance-... Shane

I really like that article.  It's the one that I refer my clients to whenever they ask for a more complex understanding of how training works.  I always joke that it's good for the treatment of insomnia.  

 



Edited by TriMyBest 2015-05-11 1:41 PM
2015-05-11 5:48 PM
in reply to: TriMyBest

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Subject: RE: performance during training
Great Link/Article - Thx
2015-05-11 5:55 PM
in reply to: mchadcota2

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Subject: RE: performance during training

Originally posted by mchadcota2 Thanks a lot for that post. Definitely makes me feel a little better. I just always expect be faster n faster on the bike during my training. Am I the only one who does this? Go out on the bike every so often to see how fast I am?

Someone very wise once told me "save the heroics for race day."  Applied more to the run than bike, but still....  Not to say you shouldn't go hard in training, if that is what the plan calls for.  

2015-05-12 4:11 AM
in reply to: mchadcota2

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Subject: RE: performance during training

You are probably best off figuring out what power improvement you need to go from 21mph to 23 and focus on properly measuring that and efficiently growing it.

Chasing mph in the middle of a training block, possibly on different courses, probably with different conditions will probably lead to more frustration than anything.

With that powermeter, you have a very powerful tool in your hands. Use it wisely.

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