General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Upscaling Nutrition from HIM to IM Rss Feed  
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2015-06-13 4:10 PM

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Subject: Upscaling Nutrition from HIM to IM
I have a pretty solid stomach. I did my 2nd HIM today. Used the same nutrition I used on my first HIM (much slower) and 2 marathons (couple years ago).

Bagel with cream cheese and 1 cup of coffee for breakfast + 1/2 bottle of gatorade
1 gel before swim
Gulp of gatorade at T1
Gel at mile 1 and then every 45 minutes after on bike. Washed down with mostly Nuun and a little water from aid station.
Had gel at 54 miles so didn't need one starting run.
Again, 2 gels at 45 and 1:30 on the run washed down with Gatorade.
Did a couple aid stations with some water and some gatorade.

I could tell by the end of the run that my stomach was saying "You better not eat another gel or have another Gatorade". I don't think it affected my performance, but I got to thinking: "If I feel like this in a HIM, how am I going to put together a nutrition plan for my IMWI in September?"

I have tried Accelerate, but it does not sit right with me. Almost like drinking a huge glass of milk and then going for a run!

I have 1 more HIM in August before IMWI to test. Any thoughts on how to change/scale this plan for a 12 hour event instead of just 6 hours?


2015-06-13 9:18 PM
in reply to: scottficek

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Subject: RE: Upscaling Nutrition from HIM to IM
Not sure about full IM but a few thoughts:

1. You might want to skip the cream cheese on the bagel if it is causing any issues. (It would for me, but don't know about others.)

2. That is a lot of gels. If you are going to go with mostly gel, it helps to have several different flavors so it takes longer to get sick of them.

3. Not sure if it would work for you, but maybe try some solid food for variety on the bike, in addition to gels, and stick with the gels/sports drinks for the run. Ideas might be energy bars, mini-sandwiches, or chocolate. I've had a long history of struggling to get gels down in longer races and have done really well with eating dark chocolate for long rides/bricks and my last HIM. How long it lasts without melting depends on how hot it is, but mine made it to 70 km of Vietnam 70.3, which has to be one of the hottest races around. Experiment in long training rides/bricks, including some with sections at race intensity, to work out your plan well before race day.

4. Maybe break up the sweet tastes with some salty ones--a few pretzel sticks or salted almonds in your bento box on the bike. There are also some saltier energy bar flavors like Cliff Mojo Peanut Butter Pretzel.

I've also done poorly with Gatorade and other liquid nutrition, mainly because I find the sweet taste nauseating and it upsets my stomach. For me and a lot of others with that issue, it seems to really help to separate nutrition (mainly solids on the bike, gels on the run) from hydration/electrolytes (calorie-free drinks like Nuun).
2015-06-14 2:08 PM
in reply to: scottficek

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Subject: RE: Upscaling Nutrition from HIM to IM
I agree with Hotrunner.....in addition,

you will go crazy & sick of eating gels for an IM. I find having a variety is important. Even switching from gels to Chomps or Waffles, or Clif bars or something besides gross gel. I usually eat gels on the run, but they have the aid stations with lots of stuff to eat. It's really the bike you need variety on hand.

Some people stash sandwiches in their special needs. something in your T2 bag is good too. That's a great time to pull out a motivator to snack on.

PnJ is popular, because it handles the heat and is something beyond gels and bars..which you get tired of fast.

I'd say start thinking of things that might even motivate you to eat or drink. Believe me, when things get hard, having a tiny little incentive helps.

Make sure you try it out (at least the best you can) prior to racing, because it might not work out exactly the way you planned.

FOR EXAMPLE...my bright idea to stick in a PnJ in the T2 bag and a cold bottle of Gatorade for hand carry. Well all went as planned, grabbed my sandwich and bottle, ran out of T2...starting chowing the PnJ....within a minute I was choking, gagging and spectators probably thought of calling 911 instead of cheering. That continued until I managed to choke down the last bit of sandwich, spilling half the gatorade on myself.
What was the problem ? I used some mutli-grain bread (which was coarse) and nutty peanut butter. Absolute bad idea. Just caused it to catch in my throat. I should have used plain white bread and smooth peanut butter. Just didn't think it would be a problem.
2015-06-14 10:41 PM
in reply to: metafizx

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Subject: RE: Upscaling Nutrition from HIM to IM
That PBJ fiasco sounds like something I would do! One thing you might NOT want to try as HIM or IM nutrition in hot weather would be something like gummy bears/worms/mini coke bottles (in Asia usually referred to by a popular brand name, Haribo). A woman parked near me in transition had decided to use these as her main nutrition source, probably without testing them in extreme heat. For some reason she didn't finish them all on the bike, and after the race she was having a terrible time getting the residue out of her bento box. If you (or your kids) have ever turned a marshmallow to cement in a microwave, it was something like that! Having to wash out a little melted chocolate was a very minor issue compared to that mess.

Glad I saw that or the idea might have occurred to me. I've done some pretty odd things for training and race "nutrition" and in fact have in the past used an organic version of gummy bears as fuel for long hikes and climbs!
2015-06-15 10:06 AM
in reply to: Hot Runner

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Subject: RE: Upscaling Nutrition from HIM to IM
I'm in the same boat as the OP here. I've done two HIMs and mostly got by on gels and Gatorade. But I have my first IM in August and I don't think those alone will cut it.

I have been bringing Clif Bars on long rides as a way to get something solid down. I don't like eating solids when I'm breathing hard (leads to choking, coughing etc) but I know I'd get serious "sugar gut" if I rely solely on gels during a full IM. I am also considering the PBJ option during T2.
2015-06-15 11:13 AM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: Upscaling Nutrition from HIM to IM
Great ideas. PB sandwich in T1 and T2 should work for me.

I forgot to mention that I did eat a GU bar (think nuts with chocolate on bottom-like a Kind bar) during bike and 1 during run. But even those were sugar based and led to "sugar gut" (I like that term!).

One question: During a HIM, I can layout my stuff and have more room to bring food options/items than what I am expecting during full-IM. I liked Gels as they are small, I can put them on my bike and can't really be ruined. Are you doing the sandwich in T1 & T2 and then just some portable solid snack like Powerbar or granola on the bike?

Edited by scottficek 2015-06-15 11:15 AM


2015-06-15 11:35 AM
in reply to: scottficek

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Subject: RE: Upscaling Nutrition from HIM to IM
I have a Tyr backpack that I bring to races and I will likely stash the PBJ sandwiches in there to keep them out of heat or rain. I usually just put gels or an extra water bottle on a towel next to my shoes and other basics.
2015-06-15 1:06 PM
in reply to: halfironmike

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Subject: RE: Upscaling Nutrition from HIM to IM
That is what I do also for HIM, but at least for IMWI you have nothing next to your bike. It is all based on the 5 bags.

Bike/Run Gear Bags And Special Needs Bags
During Athlete Check-In, athletes will receive five bags:
Green [Morning Clothes]
Blue [Bike Gear]
Orange [Bike Special Needs]
Red [Run Gear]
Black [Run Special Needs]

Trying to change my thinking on what could I fit on the bike and/or in a bag (and those bags get tossed together with 100s of others before they are laid out).
2015-06-15 1:43 PM
in reply to: halfironmike

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Subject: RE: Upscaling Nutrition from HIM to IM

Originally posted by halfironmike I have a Tyr backpack that I bring to races and I will likely stash the PBJ sandwiches in there to keep them out of heat or rain. I usually just put gels or an extra water bottle on a towel next to my shoes and other basics.

 

Not an option during an Ironman (assuming it's a WTC branded event).  You do not have a transition area and all your stuff has to be placed in gear bags.  You cannot bring a backpack.

2015-06-15 1:53 PM
in reply to: scottficek

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Subject: RE: Upscaling Nutrition from HIM to IM

Originally posted by scottficekI have 1 more HIM in August before IMWI to test. Any thoughts on how to change/scale this plan for a 12 hour event instead of just 6 hours?

Nutrition for a HIM and IM are really not similar so I'm not sure what you're "testing" during the HIM.  Your nutritional trial and error should be done during race rehearsals -- something like a 100 mile ride followed by a one hour run, done at race pace and done to test your nutrition.

A HIM is a terrible race rehearsal for an IM because it's done at an intensity a fair bit above an IM, and it's half as long in distance and far less than half the time.  Don't think you're going to just double your HIM time.  If your HIM time is 6 hours, your IM time will be 13 hours minimum.  Something that works for a 56 mile bike ride may not work for 112.  My caloric intake during an IM is about 50% more per hour than a HIM (about 400 vs 275).  Most people are probably in that 30-50% more range.  So once again, what are you testing at the HIM?  You have different nutritional needs and it's at different pacing.  It's apples to oranges.

2015-06-16 8:13 AM
in reply to: GMAN 19030

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Subject: RE: Upscaling Nutrition from HIM to IM
Originally posted by GMAN 19030

Originally posted by scottficekI have 1 more HIM in August before IMWI to test. Any thoughts on how to change/scale this plan for a 12 hour event instead of just 6 hours?

Nutrition for a HIM and IM are really not similar so I'm not sure what you're "testing" during the HIM.  Your nutritional trial and error should be done during race rehearsals -- something like a 100 mile ride followed by a one hour run, done at race pace and done to test your nutrition.

A HIM is a terrible race rehearsal for an IM because it's done at an intensity a fair bit above an IM, and it's half as long in distance and far less than half the time.  Don't think you're going to just double your HIM time.  If your HIM time is 6 hours, your IM time will be 13 hours minimum.  Something that works for a 56 mile bike ride may not work for 112.  My caloric intake during an IM is about 50% more per hour than a HIM (about 400 vs 275).  Most people are probably in that 30-50% more range.  So once again, what are you testing at the HIM?  You have different nutritional needs and it's at different pacing.  It's apples to oranges.




^^ This. You are going about this completely wrong. See GMAN's comments above. HIM and IM are not the same nutrition needs. Not even close!


2015-06-16 8:45 AM
in reply to: hathecr

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Subject: RE: Upscaling Nutrition from HIM to IM
Good to know. I always read about testing nutrition during training. I assumed this HIM race I was doing was a decent test for IM. Guess I was wrong

Glad I asked.

GMAN-
Would you share what/how you consume calories during a full IM?
2015-06-16 11:00 AM
in reply to: GMAN 19030

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Subject: RE: Upscaling Nutrition from HIM to IM
Not an option during an Ironman (assuming it's a WTC branded event).  You do not have a transition area and all your stuff has to be placed in gear bags.  You cannot bring a backpack.




Thanks for posting this. I guess they didn't enforce this at Timberman, which I did twice. I saw that they had gear bags, but I couldn't tell how much they were being used. Sounds like I will need to get this right for IMMT. Does anyone know if they have one bag actually in transition area and another at the bike turn-around for that race?
2015-06-16 4:13 PM
in reply to: halfironmike

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Subject: RE: Upscaling Nutrition from HIM to IM

Originally posted by halfironmike
Not an option during an Ironman (assuming it's a WTC branded event).  You do not have a transition area and all your stuff has to be placed in gear bags.  You cannot bring a backpack.
Thanks for posting this. I guess they didn't enforce this at Timberman, which I did twice. I saw that they had gear bags, but I couldn't tell how much they were being used. Sounds like I will need to get this right for IMMT. Does anyone know if they have one bag actually in transition area and another at the bike turn-around for that race?

Setup for IM's and 70.3's is generally very different.  As I mentioned, you do not have a transition area for Ironman events like you generally have a 70.3's or your local sprint/oly races where you lay your stuff next to your bike.  That's not an option.  At an IM, you get 5 gear bags.  A bike gear bag, run gear bag, bike special needs, run special needs, and morning clothes.  The bike and run gear bags are where you put your T1 and T2 stuff.  There are changing/transition tents that you will use.

2015-06-16 5:10 PM
in reply to: scottficek

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Subject: RE: Upscaling Nutrition from HIM to IM

Originally posted by scottficek Good to know. I always read about testing nutrition during training. I assumed this HIM race I was doing was a decent test for IM. Guess I was wrong Glad I asked. GMAN- Would you share what/how you consume calories during a full IM?

This is what works for me...

I drink as much of the on course sports drink (was Perform, now is Gatorade Endurance) as I can for the first half of the bike ride.  Usually about six or seven bottles.  At the halfway point I eat a PBJ or similar, then it's gels and water the rest of the way.  My IM bike splits are from 5:00-5:40 depending on the course.

Not doing another IM until next year but I might try a more solid food approach.

2015-06-16 9:22 PM
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Subject: RE: Upscaling Nutrition from HIM to IM
Originally posted by halfironmike
Thanks for posting this. I guess they didn't enforce this at Timberman, which I did twice. I saw that they had gear bags, but I couldn't tell how much they were being used. Sounds like I will need to get this right for IMMT. Does anyone know if they have one bag actually in transition area and another at the bike turn-around for that race?


You get 1 bag to transition from run to bike and another "special needs-bike" bag for any thing you may need once you're onto the course (more food, vaseline, glasses, socks, etc).

Very interesting. I read a bunch of the IMMT site and did not find anything about where the special needs bike bags will be placed on the bike course. I doubt they are exactly at the 1/2 way mark, but unsure. Maybe post a separate thread in that race's page to see if a former participant knows.

Edited by scottficek 2015-06-16 9:22 PM


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