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2015-06-22 2:54 PM


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nashville, Tennessee
Subject: Easy bikes
Do you think that easy bike rides are beneficial? Let me explain. Your legs are sore from a run the day before. You're options are take the day off and let your legs recover, or get on the bike and do an easy bike. Now your fitness is not going to improve by doing an easy bike I wouldn't think. So why bother taking an hour out of your day(assuming you have other priorities, job, family, etc.) to be on the bike. If you can convince me that my fitness actually would improve by including some easy bike days than I may start fitting them in. Just to be clear, I'm not talking about aerobic type, 60-70 %FTP. That's beneficial for fitness but I would think it is also working a little too hard for a day when you are sore/worn out from the run the day before. I guess what i'm saying is this, anything that is intense enough to provide some kind of stimulus/improvement in fitness, should probably not be done after a hard day of running. So why not just totally rest instead of spending an hour on the bike? The motive behind my question is, I feel the need to get on the bike after not biking for 2 days. But I'm sore from my run yesterday. So i thought, "I could just do an easy bike." But then i thought, what's the point when you could just rest. Ramble ramble...


2015-06-22 2:59 PM
in reply to: mchadcota2

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Subject: RE: Easy bikes

A rest day should be a rest day.  Most people don't need as many as they think they do, but when you take one, REST.

2015-06-22 3:00 PM
in reply to: mchadcota2

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Media, PA
Subject: RE: Easy bikes

Originally posted by mchadcota2 Do you think that easy bike rides are beneficial? Let me explain. Your legs are sore from a run the day before. You're options are take the day off and let your legs recover, or get on the bike and do an easy bike. Now your fitness is not going to improve by doing an easy bike I wouldn't think. So why bother taking an hour out of your day(assuming you have other priorities, job, family, etc.) to be on the bike. If you can convince me that my fitness actually would improve by including some easy bike days than I may start fitting them in. Just to be clear, I'm not talking about aerobic type, 60-70 %FTP. That's beneficial for fitness but I would think it is also working a little too hard for a day when you are sore/worn out from the run the day before. I guess what i'm saying is this, anything that is intense enough to provide some kind of stimulus/improvement in fitness, should probably not be done after a hard day of running. So why not just totally rest instead of spending an hour on the bike? The motive behind my question is, I feel the need to get on the bike after not biking for 2 days. But I'm sore from my run yesterday. So i thought, "I could just do an easy bike." But then i thought, what's the point when you could just rest. Ramble ramble...

Seriously.  You need help with your training program/plan.  Seriously.  Consider a coach.  Or even use a decent 'canned' plan.  It will be much better than whatever you are doing now.

 

2015-06-22 3:13 PM
in reply to: JohnnyKay

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Subject: RE: Easy bikes

Originally posted by JohnnyKay

Originally posted by mchadcota2 Do you think that easy bike rides are beneficial? Let me explain. Your legs are sore from a run the day before. You're options are take the day off and let your legs recover, or get on the bike and do an easy bike. Now your fitness is not going to improve by doing an easy bike I wouldn't think. So why bother taking an hour out of your day(assuming you have other priorities, job, family, etc.) to be on the bike. If you can convince me that my fitness actually would improve by including some easy bike days than I may start fitting them in. Just to be clear, I'm not talking about aerobic type, 60-70 %FTP. That's beneficial for fitness but I would think it is also working a little too hard for a day when you are sore/worn out from the run the day before. I guess what i'm saying is this, anything that is intense enough to provide some kind of stimulus/improvement in fitness, should probably not be done after a hard day of running. So why not just totally rest instead of spending an hour on the bike? The motive behind my question is, I feel the need to get on the bike after not biking for 2 days. But I'm sore from my run yesterday. So i thought, "I could just do an easy bike." But then i thought, what's the point when you could just rest. Ramble ramble...

Seriously.  You need help with your training program/plan.  Seriously.  Consider a coach.  Or even use a decent 'canned' plan.  It will be much better than whatever you are doing now.

 

^^ Yup

2015-06-22 4:05 PM
in reply to: Left Brain


439
10010010010025
nashville, Tennessee
Subject: RE: Easy bikes
I've done the coach. I had a coach for IM texas a year ago. It was nice to not have to come up with my own plan but other than that, I didn't make any improvements. A coach just doesn't make sense for me. I know how to come up with a training plan. Alot of the things a coach will tell you to do contradicts other training principles you read somewhere else. I can spit out all the jargon that everyone else spits out about training principles. Most of the questions I have are about the reason behind doing something. I just like to discuss these types of things. If you don't know the answer or don't have a good explanation, just ignore it. "Just get a coach" could be the answer to anyones questions on here. Did you have any input on the topic?
2015-06-22 4:13 PM
in reply to: mchadcota2


439
10010010010025
nashville, Tennessee
Subject: RE: Easy bikes
My problem is that I've probably reached the peak of improvements that I can make with the amount of time that I can put in. I can only train at most 8-10 hrs/wk. That was enough to get me to the level I'm at now. So there were steady improvements for a couple of years and now improvements are hard to come by. I finish top 5-10 % of the tris I do now. And that's probably as good as I can expect to get with 8-10 hrs of training.


2015-06-22 4:16 PM
in reply to: mchadcota2

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Subject: RE: Easy bikes

Originally posted by mchadcota2 My problem is that I've probably reached the peak of improvements that I can make with the amount of time that I can put in. I can only train at most 8-10 hrs/wk. That was enough to get me to the level I'm at now. So there were steady improvements for a couple of years and now improvements are hard to come by. I finish top 5-10 % of the tris I do now. And that's probably as good as I can expect to get with 8-10 hrs of training.

I highly doubt that's true.

That's where a good, experienced coach can really help. Those bolded words are KEY.

2015-06-22 5:14 PM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: Easy bikes

Originally posted by ratherbeswimming

Originally posted by mchadcota2 My problem is that I've probably reached the peak of improvements that I can make with the amount of time that I can put in. I can only train at most 8-10 hrs/wk. That was enough to get me to the level I'm at now. So there were steady improvements for a couple of years and now improvements are hard to come by. I finish top 5-10 % of the tris I do now. And that's probably as good as I can expect to get with 8-10 hrs of training.

I highly doubt that's true.

That's where a good, experienced coach can really help. Those bolded words are KEY.

She's right.  And top 5-10% is hard to qualify.  It really depends on the tris you enter and whether you are talking overall or in your AG.  10 hours a week is plenty of time to get a smoking fast sprint triathlon if you have any natural ability working for you.



Edited by Left Brain 2015-06-22 5:16 PM
2015-06-22 5:24 PM
in reply to: mchadcota2

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Champion
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Knoxville area
Subject: RE: Easy bikes
just an abstract...

If you plan to take an easy day on the bike, know what that REALLY means. There are very few people who spin at low enough intensity for an easy ride to benefit them.

Hard days hard
Easy days easy
2015-06-22 6:11 PM
in reply to: mchadcota2

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Champion
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Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia
Subject: RE: Easy bikes
Originally posted by mchadcota2

If you don't know the answer or don't have a good explanation, just ignore it. "Just get a coach" could be the answer to anyones questions on here. Did you have any input on the topic?


Just because you don't like the answer, I wouldn't dismiss what JK has to say or get snarky with him. JK has more to offer than pretty much anyone here and when he shares his thoughts, it's usually worth considering. Beyond that, I certainly wouldn't want to have someone decide that I'm not worth responding to due to being snarky in responses. However, that's just me.

Shane
2015-06-22 6:55 PM
in reply to: mchadcota2

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Subject: RE: Easy bikes
I think where you're mistaken is in thinking that only hard efforts are beneficial for training.

But at the same time, your regular hard efforts shouldn't always leave you needing complete rest.

Getting the most out of training means finding the right balance of hard and easy days, but also recognizing how hard and how easy those intensities should be. There is such a thing as TOO hard of an effort if you are always needing a complete rest day afterwards.


2015-06-22 7:04 PM
in reply to: mchadcota2

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Eugene, Oregon
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Subject: RE: Easy bikes
Personally I find that an easy ride or swim is very helpful as "active recovery" after a hard run or race, and for me works better than a rest day. I would not expect to get any "training" benefit from it, just to get the muscles stretched out and blood moving, and as a prelude to some gentle stretching. I'd make sure not to do the ride with anyone else who might push me harder than I want to go, or try for any specific speed, power, or heart rate. If on my own, I'd just jump on the trainer for 30-40 minutes while getting some reading done or watching the news; otherwise, I'd go riding with my 76 year old mom and go at her pace..
2015-06-22 8:15 PM
in reply to: #5124093


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Subject: RE: Easy bikes
The training plans I've followed mostly did a good job of following a hard run day with either a rest day or possibly a swim or steady pace bike ride. Not that I was never tired or sore but I felt the plans gave me enough recovery time. Sorry I can't answer your question exactly. For me, I like all three sports especially biking so I just love going out for a ride even if it's not full on training.
2015-06-23 9:10 AM
in reply to: mchadcota2

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Media, PA
Subject: RE: Easy bikes

Originally posted by mchadcota2 I've done the coach. I had a coach for IM texas a year ago. It was nice to not have to come up with my own plan but other than that, I didn't make any improvements. A coach just doesn't make sense for me. I know how to come up with a training plan. Alot of the things a coach will tell you to do contradicts other training principles you read somewhere else. I can spit out all the jargon that everyone else spits out about training principles. Most of the questions I have are about the reason behind doing something. I just like to discuss these types of things. If you don't know the answer or don't have a good explanation, just ignore it. "Just get a coach" could be the answer to anyones questions on here. Did you have any input on the topic?

I am going to guess you will take this the wrong way.  In advance, I apologize.  I'm probably offering advice where none is wanted.  It's a disease. 

From following the questions you have posted over time, including the two yesterday, it is clear that you do not really understand how to come up with an effective training plan.  You may be able to spit out all the jargon, but have not figured out how to tie it all together.  Or really, to just step back and understand how the principles create the 'big picture' of your training.  Like many, you are getting lost in the minutiae.  It's not that I don't have an answer to your question.  It's that I can tell you are asking the wrong questions if your goal is to see improvements in your racing.  And I'm suggesting you step back and figure out how to maybe look at things differently (e.g., use a plan or a coach and then ask why you are doing x or y and why wouldn't z be worth considering instead).  If you just like to talk about these things and don't really care about how to better implement them in your overall training, that's OK.  I'll refrain from trying to offer such advice to you in the future if you really have no interest.

Beyond that, I guarantee that you haven't gotten as good as you can get even with 8-10hrs as a constraint.  And to answer your specific question, you ran for about 6mi, some of it at a moderately hard pace, and ended up a little sore.  Get on your bike.  No need to keep it totally easy.  Or go for a swim.  Definitely don't keep it totally easy.

2015-06-23 9:19 AM
in reply to: Hot Runner

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Subject: RE: Easy bikes
Originally posted by Hot Runner

Personally I find that an easy ride or swim is very helpful as "active recovery" after a hard run or race, and for me works better than a rest day. I would not expect to get any "training" benefit from it, just to get the muscles stretched out and blood moving, and as a prelude to some gentle stretching. I'd make sure not to do the ride with anyone else who might push me harder than I want to go, or try for any specific speed, power, or heart rate. If on my own, I'd just jump on the trainer for 30-40 minutes while getting some reading done or watching the news; otherwise, I'd go riding with my 76 year old mom and go at her pace..

Could not agree more. I seldom take a day off and do nothing. I find an easy ride or swim (never a run) eases away any pain or stiffness and I feel much better than when I took a day off and did nothing. Active recovery is the only way to go, for me.

The key is to resist all temptations to push hard. Just relax and take it easy. I find it also clears the mind when you can just ride or swim without thinking about times or splits or anything else. Very therapeutic.

2015-06-23 11:25 AM
in reply to: Stuartap


439
10010010010025
nashville, Tennessee
Subject: RE: Easy bikes
Thanks alot JohnnyK. I appreciate you taking the time to give me some input. I know a coach would be helpful but not worth the cost in my opinion. My problem is I think of something, and just post it, whereas if I just think about it I could probably figure out an answer. Sometimes I look back at question I asked and think, "why did I even ask that?" I wonder if there is evidence, that an active recovery bike, is better than total rest. If there is, I'd probably do it alot more. When I was training for IM texas, most of my Mondays my coach had planned an "optional" 30-60 min easy ride. I almost always skipped this to just take the day off. Because with a job, 6 kids, and a wife, training for an IM takes up too much time as it is. So I figured I'd use this time for a break for everybody. If I thought that active recovery led to faster, better recovery, then i may have tried to do it more. Of course when doing an hour ride requires waking up at 4:30 am, I'm willing to skip a recovery ride for some recovery sleep one day per week.


2015-06-23 11:44 AM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: Easy bikes

Originally posted by mchadcota2 Thanks alot JohnnyK. I appreciate you taking the time to give me some input. I know a coach would be helpful but not worth the cost in my opinion. My problem is I think of something, and just post it, whereas if I just think about it I could probably figure out an answer. Sometimes I look back at question I asked and think, "why did I even ask that?" I wonder if there is evidence, that an active recovery bike, is better than total rest. If there is, I'd probably do it alot more. When I was training for IM texas, most of my Mondays my coach had planned an "optional" 30-60 min easy ride. I almost always skipped this to just take the day off. Because with a job, 6 kids, and a wife, training for an IM takes up too much time as it is. So I figured I'd use this time for a break for everybody. If I thought that active recovery led to faster, better recovery, then i may have tried to do it more. Of course when doing an hour ride requires waking up at 4:30 am, I'm willing to skip a recovery ride for some recovery sleep one day per week.

A handful of studies to pick though here, most that I've read showing evidence that active recovery is the way to go:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=%22active+recovery%22

ETA: though if you're sacrificing sleep, it may not be as beneficial. 

My advice if you're self-coached: try both a few times. See what works for you. Make that your protocol. 

 



Edited by ratherbeswimming 2015-06-23 11:54 AM
2015-06-23 12:05 PM
in reply to: mchadcota2

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Subject: RE: Easy bikes

In that case, you probably made the right call most of the time to just take the rest day.  AG athletes don't train in a vacuum.  You have to account for constraints imposed by the 'rest of life', including the stresses those might create.  (That is, it's probably irrelevant whether an active recovery bike ride might be 'better'.

Still, if you really have 8-10hrs a week to train and are really trying to maximize your performance with that constraint (and maybe some others), your questions are better spent trying to figure out how best to organize that time.  (Again, I'm not trying to be overly harsh, but...it is pretty clear your training is not set up that way today given what you have said you have done/are doing).  And if a coach doesn't seem worth it, then start from a 'canned' plan--there are plenty decent ones available on BT or elsewhere--and learn how to adjust it to account for your strengths/weaknesses/constraints/goals/etc.  Focus on the big picture--how is it increasing training load, both over the short and long term? how is it building in recovery? can you handle that kind of load and recovery combo given your other obligations/abilities? etc.  But if you are satisfied with whatever results you are getting, then just do what you enjoy.  Go hard when you feel like it, easy when you want to, and rest when you feel you need it.  And ask whatever question pops into your head and see where the discussion goes...

2015-06-23 2:03 PM
in reply to: JohnnyKay


439
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nashville, Tennessee
Subject: RE: Easy bikes
Thanks a lot! Really appreciate the advice!
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