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Building endurance for swimming (Page 2)
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 2015-10-29 9:00 AM in reply to: marysia83 |
Extreme Veteran  586   Richmond |  Subject: RE: Building endurance for swimmingOk, I saw your reply where you mentioned the kicking hard part. It's not the strength of your kick so much as the timing that will yield both propulsion AND body position. And timing is generally not something you figure out on your own in any reasonable amountof time (as an adult anyway). |
| 2015-10-29 9:14 AM in reply to: Finding Freestyle |
Expert 2852  Pfafftown, NC | Subject: RE: Building endurance for swimming I'm not arguing with you when I ask you this....... If you go from never kicking.....to kicking "some", doesn't that require a renewed level of fitness? The new usage of the legs isn't free, is it? I totally agree with you that technique is No. 1. But, I also feel fitness (swim-specific) is No. 1. |
| 2015-10-29 9:33 AM in reply to: 0 |
Extreme Veteran 586 Richmond | Subject: RE: Building endurance for swimming I like your two #1s. In reality, the two things (fitness & technique) are not separate, but we should do specific things to address specific things. So, if you go from never kicking to kicking some, you will probably require more oxygen delivery so more aerobic capacity / fitness will come into play. But the thing is, simply swimming easy with gentle arms and an easy, well timed kick is not all that demanding aerobically. So no kicking or kicking easy should both be well within the capabilities of anyone who has decent technique. If you can't sustain freestyle swimming for 50 yards after multiple training sessions, it is almost certainly not fitness where you need to make gains. As I see it, there are four real swimming fundamentals, two of which the OP probably lacks. 1. Awareness - Intuitive knowledge of physical movements and spatial relationships between body parts. 2. Rhythm / Timing - between arms, legs and breathing 3. Relaxation / Ease of movement - Maintaining a supple body form, neither rigid or flaccid. 4. Development of physical vocabularly - Swimming motions and body positions are, for the most part, alien to the human neuromuscular/musculoskeletal system. By developing a library of these motions and positions in component fashion, swimmers in essence increase their “physical vocabulary”. Everything else is a detail that can vary widely from swimmer to swimmer. The OP could probably use work on all of these, as they are all essentially linked, but she probably has large failings in the Relaxation and Rhythm departments. Edited by Finding Freestyle 2015-10-29 9:34 AM |
| 2015-10-29 10:14 AM in reply to: nc452010 |
Champion 7036 Sarasota, FL | Subject: RE: Building endurance for swimming Originally posted by nc452010 I'm not arguing with you when I ask you this....... If you go from never kicking.....to kicking "some", doesn't that require a renewed level of fitness? The new usage of the legs isn't free, is it? I totally agree with you that technique is No. 1. But, I also feel fitness (swim-specific) is No. 1. I would suggest that you need good technique first in order to build swim-specific strength and fitness. The motion of the swim stroke is unique and you're asking your muscles to move in ways that they are not used to. It's also hard to replicate the swim stroke out of the pool. It's the old specificity concept: the best way to build swim fitness is to swim using good technique. As far as kicking, it does require a lot of core and abdominal strength if done properly. Even if you only employ a 2-beat kick for balance and timing during a triathlon swim, incorporating kick sets into your swim workouts are a great way to build your core & abs. Mark
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| 2015-10-29 10:31 AM in reply to: 0 |
Expert 2852 Pfafftown, NC | Subject: RE: Building endurance for swimming I'm so glad you don't view my conversation as me questioning you. That's not my intention, AT ALL. Thanks for discussing this with me. "If you can't sustain freestyle swimming for 50 yards after multiple training sessions, it is almost certainly not fitness where you need to make gains. " I agree with you 100% on the 50yds. I've been swimming for 3 mos, now. I can swim past 50yds, but I actually have no idea how far I can swim, if I was asked to swim as far as I could. With a wetsuit/PB......a mile. Without.....like I said....no idea (furthest intervals I'm doing are 100yds). I just don't see technique and fitness as being able to be separated, anymore (for MY benefit). TJ said something a few weeks ago that made it all make sense (again, to ME) a few weeks ago. If I can find it, I'll re-post it. It basically said endurance/fitness will take care of a lot of body balance issues. I'm banking on him being right!  Here's what he said -- "The biggest culprit is swimming is the pull. If you fix the pull and create a more effective pull, then balance issues are largely eliminated. (For beginners it's usually head position, and that is a 10 second fix). So conventional swimming fixes your pull(as an example) and that increased speed lifts your body." My question to TJ in that thread ----- Originally posted by nc452010 So, TJ.....it sounds like there's a black hole where beginners who learn to swim (non-TI) by learning a powerful, correct pull......reside until their swim fitness establishes itself? His answer ----- Yes. That black hole is called swim team. Regular swimming of many many yards and constantly being corrected along the way. Good technique takes time and supervision. Triathletes don't have time for all that though.......See the rub? Edited by nc452010 2015-10-29 10:40 AM |
| 2015-10-29 12:43 PM in reply to: 0 |
1660 | Subject: RE: Building endurance for swimming Just chiming in here - I don't think technique and fitness are so linked together that they cannot be separated for AGers.
I did a swim clinic with 15 other swimmers with video, and all class members were analyzed by a respeceted tri/swim coach who was an ex-collegiate swimmer and was a very strong swimmer.
There were quite a few people who had very nice form, with good arm angles, good body position, good streamlining, but were still 2:00+/100yds. They simply lacked the power in their arms/back to pull water with force and with enough turnover. Their speed deficit was not a function of lack of technique or wasted energy in the water - it was almost entirely due to lacking a propulsive pull.
In contrast, there were several guys swimming sub 1:20/100 pace there that had much more obvious stroke errors but clearly had enough power in their stroke to keep up a good pace.
I still def agree that if you're struggling to finish even a 200,ramping up intensity should NOT be on your list of immediate things to-do (relaxing and focusing on good form is #1-#10 for these swimmers!) but I feel that it''s not quiet an accurate statement to say technique=fitness in swimming. Sure, there's overlap, but you can definitely see circumstances where they can be polarized as above. Edited by yazmaster 2015-10-29 12:43 PM |
| 2015-10-29 1:21 PM in reply to: 0 |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Building endurance for swimming Originally posted by yazmaster Just chiming in here - I don't think technique and fitness are so linked together that they cannot be separated for AGers.
Why is that? Are AG swimmers special swimmers practicing some kind of special swimming? Other than being, as a group, really slow....what is it that makes them different? First.......LEARN TO SWIM!!! Edited by Left Brain 2015-10-29 1:22 PM |
| 2015-10-29 4:23 PM in reply to: yazmaster |
| 1731 Denver, Colorado | Subject: RE: Building endurance for swimming I can do multiple laps in any other stroke (well, except fly that I have just learned three days ago, so not enough practice). So I start to think it's not just endurance/fitness issue. And even with freestyle - I feel like my body could do more, but something in my mind yells at me to stop. That's how I came up with my plan to work on mental aspects ----> getting more comfortable with swimming in front crawl; making sure my brain understands there is no danger. Obviously, I cannot speak about my technique. I am not able to evaluate it, especially since I don't have anyone to film me or critic me. My instructor did not have any concerns with the form - although, we did not spend THAT much time together. Somebody mentioned it is a different body position and my body may need to get used to it. I don't know, backstroke seems to be a little odd as well, yet I am totally capable to relax and swim comfortably, without getting tired. Thanks everyone for your advices - it was great to read all your comments. Mary |
| 2015-10-29 4:25 PM in reply to: Left Brain |
| 1660 | Subject: RE: Building endurance for swimming Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by yazmaster Just chiming in here - I don't think technique and fitness are so linked together that they cannot be separated for AGers.
Why is that? Are AG swimmers special swimmers practicing some kind of special swimming? Other than being, as a group, really slow....what is it that makes them different? First.......LEARN TO SWIM!!!
And how's your personal 1000 TT pace coming along, LB? Down to :58/100 yet? |
| 2015-10-29 6:32 PM in reply to: yazmaster |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Building endurance for swimming Originally posted by yazmaster Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by yazmaster Just chiming in here - I don't think technique and fitness are so linked together that they cannot be separated for AGers.
Why is that? Are AG swimmers special swimmers practicing some kind of special swimming? Other than being, as a group, really slow....what is it that makes them different? First.......LEARN TO SWIM!!!
And how's your personal 1000 TT pace coming along, LB? Down to :58/100 yet? Hell no, I don't know how to swim that well and don't put the time into lessons....so I can only get so fast, no matter how "fit" I am. I can NEVER get there with my technique.. It's a ridiculous premise to say that technique is not the most important component of fast swimming. I don't give a rats arse how fit you are.....you can't swim fast if you don't know how to swim. And you can forget "swim fitness" as well........if you don't have good technique you have no idea what your "swim fitness" actually is because you waste so much energy on poor swim mechanics. This isn't rocket science.....it's actually really simple. If you want to actually swim fast you have to learn to swim. Triathlon swimming is not magic swimming. You just go right on thinking that swim "fitness" and swim "technique" can be separated......the ONLY people that holds true for are people with good swim technique.....you have it exactly backwards. |
| 2015-10-30 7:01 AM in reply to: Left Brain |
Member 1748 Exton, PA | Subject: RE: Building endurance for swimming Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by yazmaster Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by yazmaster Just chiming in here - I don't think technique and fitness are so linked together that they cannot be separated for AGers.
Why is that? Are AG swimmers special swimmers practicing some kind of special swimming? Other than being, as a group, really slow....what is it that makes them different? First.......LEARN TO SWIM!!!
And how's your personal 1000 TT pace coming along, LB? Down to :58/100 yet? Hell no, I don't know how to swim that well and don't put the time into lessons....so I can only get so fast, no matter how "fit" I am. I can NEVER get there with my technique.. It's a ridiculous premise to say that technique is not the most important component of fast swimming. I don't give a rats arse how fit you are.....you can't swim fast if you don't know how to swim. And you can forget "swim fitness" as well........if you don't have good technique you have no idea what your "swim fitness" actually is because you waste so much energy on poor swim mechanics. This isn't rocket science.....it's actually really simple. If you want to actually swim fast you have to learn to swim. Triathlon swimming is not magic swimming. You just go right on thinking that swim "fitness" and swim "technique" can be separated......the ONLY people that holds true for are people with good swim technique.....you have it exactly backwards. To support LB (just this time). I have not done any swimming since August, that was for an Olympic tri. Didn't swim before that for a couple weeks. So it's safe to say my swim fitness is not there. That's 3 months with no swimming. I guarantee I could jump in the pool today and do a 1:05/100 maybe even 1:00/100. That's because of technique, if I went longer distances right now I would choke! |
| 2015-10-30 7:22 AM in reply to: mike761 |
Expert 2852 Pfafftown, NC | Subject: RE: Building endurance for swimming Originally posted by mike761 Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by yazmaster Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by yazmaster Just chiming in here - I don't think technique and fitness are so linked together that they cannot be separated for AGers.
Why is that? Are AG swimmers special swimmers practicing some kind of special swimming? Other than being, as a group, really slow....what is it that makes them different? First.......LEARN TO SWIM!!!
And how's your personal 1000 TT pace coming along, LB? Down to :58/100 yet? Hell no, I don't know how to swim that well and don't put the time into lessons....so I can only get so fast, no matter how "fit" I am. I can NEVER get there with my technique.. It's a ridiculous premise to say that technique is not the most important component of fast swimming. I don't give a rats arse how fit you are.....you can't swim fast if you don't know how to swim. And you can forget "swim fitness" as well........if you don't have good technique you have no idea what your "swim fitness" actually is because you waste so much energy on poor swim mechanics. This isn't rocket science.....it's actually really simple. If you want to actually swim fast you have to learn to swim. Triathlon swimming is not magic swimming. You just go right on thinking that swim "fitness" and swim "technique" can be separated......the ONLY people that holds true for are people with good swim technique.....you have it exactly backwards. To support LB (just this time). I have not done any swimming since August, that was for an Olympic tri. Didn't swim before that for a couple weeks. So it's safe to say my swim fitness is not there. That's 3 months with no swimming. I guarantee I could jump in the pool today and do a 1:05/100 maybe even 1:00/100. That's because of technique, if I went longer distances right now I would choke! The OP isn't worried about speed. She wants to go further. I'm not sure (based on your last sentence) you're proving technique trumps all. I still (again, as a beginner) contend they can't be separated........ESPECIALLY when we're talking about AOS's. People who swam as children? Totally different animal. They can get in the water, after long layoffs (sometimes many years) and swim and swim. Was that due to swimming millions of yards as a kid.....or, because they learned great technique? I think the latter is, in large part, due to the former. In no way am I arguing with anyone here. I like these discussions, because I'm living this stuff, right now. 2650yds in masters class, this morning! |
| 2015-10-30 8:07 AM in reply to: nc452010 |
Master 8247 Eugene, Oregon Bronze member | Subject: RE: Building endurance for swimming Just guessing, but based on the fact that the OP can comfortably swim considerably further with other strokes and feels like a part of the problem is mental, my guess is that she has pretty serious technique issues with breathing. Breast stroke allows one to come up for air every stroke, (same for fly if desired, though most people wouldn't race that way) breathing from the front, backstroke by definition allows one to breathe whenever; both breast and back are commonly recommended as "backup strokes" for people who run into trouble with panic or breathlessness in OWS. It's really common for less experienced swimmers to feel "safer" with them. Free, on the other hand, requires rotation to one side and keeping one's head partly in the water; it's harder for a lot of people to establish an efficient breathing pattern and avoid swallowing water. There are also all kinds of variations besides breathing every stroke, and a beginner has to work out what works best for him/her at different distances and intensities. If a swimmer hasn't established a suitable breathing pattern that's pretty automatic, then free is going to feel a lot less comfortable and more tiring, and endurance will be limited even if the muscular fitness is there to swim further with other strokes. I've been swimming since infancy, and probably doing free since age 5 or 6, and even I sometimes have issues with the breathing--for example, adjusting breathing when swimming at altitude, and adjusting for bilateral breathing. (I didn't do that until a few years ago; even now, I prefer my old pattern of 2-2-4, and it's what I revert to when I can, because it always seems to give me just the right amount of oxygen, even at race intensity for a long effort.) |
| 2015-10-30 2:42 PM in reply to: 0 |
| 1731 Denver, Colorado | Subject: RE: Building endurance for swimming Thank you. Here are some observation from today: First of all - I did 75 yards (3 lengths) - yupiii!! Then sets of 50s. Then 300 yards of backstroke, and back to free - few sets of 50s. The first 25 of 50 was great - very smooth, my breathing was awesome, I was not afraid of anything, I felt like fish. In the second 25 there was something happening with my breathing - it is hard to describe, so please be patient, and I will try not to be too poetic. I was trying to exhale slowely and exhale all the air from my lung, but I had a feeling that there is either too much air and I will not be able/not have enough time to exhale everything, or that I don't have enough air and won't make it to the inhale moment. Couple of times I had put my head up to the front to grasp an air - and it was weird, because I felt I still had air in my lungs while I was exhaling. So again, it could have been that damn panic mode. I did the experiment: I started with a very slow breaststroke and while continuing breathing pattern from breast, I switched my arms and the body to fly. It was very helpful and helped me have nice and easy/breezy breathing pattern. For 25 yards. When I was in the middle of the second 25, the "exhale problem" came back. Overall it seems to be getting better. My next experiment is to do sets of 25 with 16 breaths of rest - see how that goes, if it doesn't work - I will do 25s with one minute rests (both scenarios I took from the articles posted in this discussion). Then eventually move to 50s, and so on. Mary Edited by marysia83 2015-10-30 2:45 PM |
| 2015-10-30 3:34 PM in reply to: marysia83 |
| 319 Sarasota, Florida | Subject: RE: Building endurance for swimming Just curious, did you ever address this? I think I kick wayyy too much. As if my legs were a motor and the only way to save my life. I ask because it wasn't long ago that I experienced the same thing though for me it didn't start until 6 sets or so. I don't want to undo whatever your instructor had you doing but switching to the 2 beat kick was kind of magic for me. It taught me to find a better pull and not propel myself through furious flutter kicking and I don't feel like I burn up oxygen so quickly. Also, I imagine it will take more than a few sets per session to get comfortable with breathing. |
| 2015-10-30 4:07 PM in reply to: runtim23 |
| 1731 Denver, Colorado | Subject: RE: Building endurance for swimming Originally posted by runtim23 Just curious, did you ever address this? I think I kick wayyy too much. As if my legs were a motor and the only way to save my life. I ask because it wasn't long ago that I experienced the same thing though for me it didn't start until 6 sets or so. I don't want to undo whatever your instructor had you doing but switching to the 2 beat kick was kind of magic for me. It taught me to find a better pull and not propel myself through furious flutter kicking and I don't feel like I burn up oxygen so quickly. Also, I imagine it will take more than a few sets per session to get comfortable with breathing. Yes! Thanks for noticing this I believe I swim better when I kick less. In this first, wonderful 25 yards I kick less. For some strange reason I am loosing focus in the second 25s and both - my breath and kick are out of control. One more reason I practice backstroke so much is I am finding it helpful to be able to minimize the kick. I found a great rhythm between breathing and kicking in backstroke, and am trying to imply the same in freestyle. Which works in the first 25s. One promising thing that keeps me optimistic about my swimming - about a month ago I did not feel this comfortable in half of 25. So maybe it is just a matter of time. My brain is fine with 25 and need to train it for more and more. I cannot speak for my instructor, as he has never seen me swimming more than 50 (we only had 5 30-minute sessions, so we only covered what we could have covered.) Mary |
| 2015-11-03 12:57 PM in reply to: marysia83 |
| 1731 Denver, Colorado | Subject: RE: Building endurance for swimming Just an update - and kind of bringing hope for those who also struggle with swimming. It gets better. My plan for this week was to just do 25s. It felt good. I got the breathing under control, did not have ANY panic/anxiety actions going on. It is not 100% super comfortable, but well enough I can stop thinking about breathing and focus on my legs/kicks and arms. Improvements are possible Mary |
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