Slornow and Wannabefaster's mentor group...Closed (Page 20)

Jason - very glad to see you are recovering so quickly. I was impressed with the speed at which you jumped on it and got it taken care of. That is another thing that I wish I had of learned years ago: when you get an injury make it your number one priority to get it diagnosed and then attack the rehab. Like so many others I have spent WAY too much time fiddle-farting around with Internet diagnosis, "working through it," hoping it would get better, and sometimes just ignoring it. Lost a lot of time that in the end I really didn't need to. Good luck with the rehab!

Well...... I was going to try to work through it. I have attacked other injuries that way in the past. The pain I experienced after running the HM two weeks ago convinced me that this one was not going to be amenable to the brute-force, grit your teeth and just train, approach. I wish I could say I am that smart but this one declared itself. Walking around feeling like an ice pick was buried in my knee got very old, very quick.

I posted this on FB

I got to spend the afternoon watching the first step in getting Lionel Sanders more aero.

Anyone following Lionel’s phenomenal progression in the pro ranks knows he generates and an incredible amount of power. Translating that power into speed is part art, part science.

He is scheduled to go to the Milton Velodrome to have his aerodynamics optimized by Andy Froncioni of Alphamantis. For those that don’t know, Andy has developed a system that takes power and speed data from a rider in a Velodrome, transmits it to a piece of software, that through complex algorithms calculates the aerodynamic profile of the rider. They can the adjust the riders position to get the most speed for a given power. Andy’s technology is used by the top pro tour teams including Team Sky and the Canadian National track team.

Step 1 was a fitting session. Optimal performance is the combination of aerodynamics, comfort on the bike and the ability to generate power. Geoff Farnsworth looked at Lionel’s bio-mechanics and current position. The goal was to get a baseline of measurements, and find ways to improve power generation, comfort and aerodynamics. Seats went up and down, forward/ backward, cleat positions changed, different crank lengths were tried. Frontal areas were measured, pelvis got tilted differently, hip angles were opened. They know what parts are required to set up his new bike for testing and the aero optimization will decide on the final position.

The result of step1 was probably more power generation with a more open hip angle, feeling “”really good” and being more aero “on paper”. The velodrome will be the true test of aero savings. But it was pretty obvious when you looked at the before and after pics.
It’s kind of scary to think he might actually generate more power now. The engine got another 25HP and the Jeep Wrangler profile will be that of a Ferrari. I joked with Andy that he needs to develop this technology for swimming.

I got there at 1:30, they were well into the session and we drove Lionel to the airport at 6ish so t was long day for him.
The guys from Louis Garneau were there supporting their athlete and the process. CBC took a break from covering the Habs landslide in standings to cover Lionel. Trimes.org, a great French speaking triathlon web site was also following the process. I was the only one not actually working ?

I learned a lot. I watched Geoff execute his art, backed with the science of the Retul machine. It was interesting because he was very forthcoming with why he was doing things. From what I understand ballet or yoga are not in Lionel’s future. But they got him comfortable and powerful. You could see Andy devising test runs in his head.

Lionel is a really easy going guy. But like several of the very successful pros he is paying a lot more attention to detail as he grows through the ranks. You can see he is bombarded with opinions and suggestions . He seems pretty quick to pick up what is important and not. He’s not a guy that hesitates. Things were moving pretty quickly. He doesn’t waffle. He also shares. There seem to be very few secrets. This is really cool for those wanting to learn. Like many in the peanut gallery, I would think to myself “why did he do this, why did he do that, why doesn’t he get a coach….”. Having met the guy I’m pretty sure he’s going to continue down the path that will bring him to even greater success. He's a smart guy. Exciting times for triathlon fans.







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Wowee, Marc - that is really good stuff. What a great opportunity to be a fly on the wall. While j think it would be interesting for any of us to have that opportunity, I can't think of a person that I know that will get more use than you out of the experience. Now the real trick is how do younger the experience to get all of us faster??? ;^)

No doubt about it, aero testing. The guess is that at Lionel's speed, he will get 80w or more in the velodrome.

A big aha moment is when the best looking, smartest, oldest, slowest guy in the room suggested shorter cranks. Now that created an interesting chain of events.

Andy mentioned it in another post so I don't think I'm divulging anything super secret. Lionel is fully transparent but I don't want to cross any lines.
I suggest the shorter cranks based on a comment Lionel made about more power sitting up and he did look cramped at the hips.
So they tried 165 on the fit machine and that was great. He liked it a lot
But then I raised the issue he is on Stages so it was a crank and a PM change.
Andy got on the phone and within minutes had the folks from Powertap talking to Lionel and that was that.

For the coaching, he is using a swim coach, Gerry Rodriguez. My understanding is he send video and gets feedback. For the rest of the coaching, I think he is starting to understand what workouts work for him based on what they do to his performance. He is probably still learning to what limit he can push himself. He really is a bright guy. I don't second guess his decision because even a coach would go through a learning experience figuring out what his limits are. He's only 27. He does have time to learn. And he just loves this stuff. His words "Had I won powerball last week, nothing in my life would have changed"

I probably wasn't clear. The shorter cranks/better position may get get him 20 watts of power

The aero fitting is another story. A .04 cda improvement, for example from .28 to .24 would require 80 watts less for the same speed. That is assuming you are doing 45km/h like Lionel was doing at Panama.

I suspect Andy will get him .02 or .03 and 50 or so watts. But still...

Edited by marcag 2016-02-05 1:08 PM

for those that watched Lionel's Panama race, he smoked the bike and the quickly moved into first place. He had a huge lead but he still pushed hard. I asked why he didn't back off a little when he knew he had it in the bag.

His Garmin was given him incorrect splits. He thought they were going to catch him.

Damn... 80 watts... that's huge. It's always been pretty clear that Lionel's been giving up time on the bike but has been compensating for it with his massive engine. Crazy to think of what he's capable of in a position that's both more powerful and more aerodynamic.

He's addressed the "no coach" thing on TRSradio... as I recall his perspective is that nobody knows his body as well as he does, and he considers himself somewhat "uncoachable" in terms of his overall attitude. He's making the right choices though in terms of addressing his weaknesses (i.e. swimming and aerodynamics on the bike) by consulting with the experts. Looking at what he's physically been able to do with running and biking power it's hard to argue with the results he's been getting sans coach.

Part of what makes Lionel fun to watch is the ongoing learning experience he's going through, and the fact that he shares this process pretty openly. It would be way less interesting if he just did everything right in the first place.

Sorry that I have been MIA for a few days. Just beginning the budget process at work and I am trying to get two new high level hires up to speed on our process. Between them they have responsibility for 60% of the budgets that need to be done (over 2 dozen).

I did want to give an update on my running since changing my approach to what was suggested here last week. Here is how it breaks down:

1.28.16 - 35 minutes
1.29.16 - 20 minutes (after 90 minute ride)
1.30.16 - no run
1.31.16 - no run
2.01.16 - 36 minutes
2.02.16 - no run
2.03.16 - 25 minutes (after 90 minute ride)
2.04.16 - 60 minutes (longest and fastest, fast being a relative term)
2.05.16 - 30 minutes (after 2 hour ride)

So not quite making it to 6 runs per week but MUCH more often than I was running. I have noticed that the legs take a bit longer to warm up on the bike and on the run. Also I have been able to run on most of them, only 1 walk/run and that was on the 29th just as I was beginning. No problems so far with the hip or any other surgically modified parts!

Not sure what any of that means for a few months from now but it is certainly the most successful attempt at running I have had so thanks again to all for the input.

Started out the day nice!!
90mins.

15-20mins w/u + 3x(15mins @ 200-210/5mins super easy) - all in a big gear at 55-65RPM.

In the middle of each 15min rep, take it up to the 220s for 60secs three times...like the 5th, 10th and 15th minute of each interval.


Felt string all the way and actually my power ended up bit higher on all sets. Felt like I needed to go a bit stronger. I'm going to ask my coach if I ought to do another Power test.

Nice. Just out of curiosity, what is your current FTP ?

I'm on 172.5 - I have a 34.5" inseam. The crank length is based on a Retul fit so I haven't ever really second guessed it. Seems like 172.5 is the most common crank length, and I'm taller than most, so while there are lots of people that are, say 5'10" that might benefit from shorter cranks, I've always felt like I'm pretty safe at that length.

Just about to get on the trainer for today's sessions: 3 sets of 2x10-minute criss-cross intervals (2-minute valleys between 95-99% FTP alternating with 30-second surges between 105-110% FTP). I always struggle with the criss-cross intervals more than any other workout. Not bad to begin with but by the end of the sessions trying to recover at 95-99% of FTP is a real challenge.

What does everyone else do for nutrition for, say, a 90 minute intervals session? I don't use anything but water for a 60 minute session but when I get up to 90 minutes I'll usually have some trail mix or something to start snacking on when I get about halfway through. Either way I finish with some coconut water and then a protein shake (Vega).

Oops, I missed this

I went from 172.5 to 165. It made a big difference. It opened up my hip angle and I have much less trouble generating power in aero position. Some people are way more flexible and see less of a difference.

A lot of people could simply benefit from correcting a seat too low problem.

FYI, a Quarq Rikken SRAM from 172 to 165 is a pretty easy swap. Get A SRAM Force 22 crank and you can swap the spider.

Are you talking in relative or absolute terms? As in, everyone, whether you're 6'6" or 5'6", should consider going to a shorter crank than they're on now, whatever length they may be, or that everyone, whether you're 6'6" or 5'6", should consider riding on 165s?

I find it hard to believe that Mr. 6'6" who is riding on 172.5s really needs to go smaller, but it seems pretty clear that Mr. 5'6" who is also on 172.5s should be on something much shorter.

Some interesting data in here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMAxH_Ud8YE
Though it's more about power than aero in this case.

The aero penalty of bringing everything up 1cm is negligible according to the Cervelo tests.

But many people are able to up seat, and leave bars at the same height in fact increasing the drop, flattening torso...

But the devil is in the details of each individual fit. If you are a person that believes they could benefit from going lower, but they are losing power by doing so, because their hip is too closed, then shorter cranks may be the solution.