General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Biking: 6x4' intervals at 105+% with 45s RI, really? Rss Feed  
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2016-01-13 8:42 PM

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Subject: Biking: 6x4' intervals at 105+% with 45s RI, really?

Some of us are doing the BT Winter Cycling program and now at in the midst of the fun of the 2nd phase with the 6x4' workouts. I've done this program a couple of times now and still get stumped with the 6x4' workouts with the 45s rest intervals.  Are these workouts realistic with 45s RI's? Especially coming off a fresh CP test week were the CP has increased. Basically this workout is breaking the latest 20' CP test into 4' slices with 45s of rest?  This week for the 2nd 6x4' workout after the 3rd interval I had to extend the RI's to 2-3', last week I had to extend all the RI out to 2-3'.  I've done some other programs and with longer high threshold %/ low aerobic power % intervals like these the RI has always been at least 50% of the interval duration.

6x4' at 105+% with 45s RI, really who can do this?  Maybe if I came off a nice strong season of training, but from nothing to 5+ weeks, this is virtually impossible!  Like to hear the thoughts of those that have been around the block.

Yeah I know HTFU!!!



2016-01-14 5:21 AM
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Subject: RE: Biking: 6x4' intervals at 105+% with 45s RI, really?
Originally posted by Donto

Some of us are doing the BT Winter Cycling program and now at in the midst of the fun of the 2nd phase with the 6x4' workouts. I've done this program a couple of times now and still get stumped with the 6x4' workouts with the 45s rest intervals.  Are these workouts realistic with 45s RI's? Especially coming off a fresh CP test week were the CP has increased. Basically this workout is breaking the latest 20' CP test into 4' slices with 45s of rest?  This week for the 2nd 6x4' workout after the 3rd interval I had to extend the RI's to 2-3', last week I had to extend all the RI out to 2-3'.  I've done some other programs and with longer high threshold %/ low aerobic power % intervals like these the RI has always been at least 50% of the interval duration.

6x4' at 105+% with 45s RI, really who can do this?  Maybe if I came off a nice strong season of training, but from nothing to 5+ weeks, this is virtually impossible!  Like to hear the thoughts of those that have been around the block.

Yeah I know HTFU!!!




yes they are feasible, but they are hard. If you can't make it through there is a possibility that your CP is set to high.
IIRC he did 1 week of 5'x4. Do those with 1' rest. Next week add 1 to make it 6x4, Following week take 55sec, following 50, following 45s. If needed, do one week at 103%, then 104 then a mix and finally 105%. Don't increase the RI, that is not what he intended with those intervals.

If I were taking 3' RI, I would be doing them at 112% or so.

I do this block of workouts when it's tme to work on 20' power improvements. But you have to be ready for it. I personally found the workouts up until this point a little "light", which combined to non perfect testing could lead to some really hard workouts.



Edited by marcag 2016-01-14 5:36 AM
2016-01-14 7:52 AM
in reply to: Donto

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Subject: RE: Biking: 6x4' intervals at 105+% with 45s RI, really?

Originally posted by Donto

Some of us are doing the BT Winter Cycling program and now at in the midst of the fun of the 2nd phase with the 6x4' workouts. I've done this program a couple of times now and still get stumped with the 6x4' workouts with the 45s rest intervals.  Are these workouts realistic with 45s RI's? Especially coming off a fresh CP test week were the CP has increased. Basically this workout is breaking the latest 20' CP test into 4' slices with 45s of rest?  This week for the 2nd 6x4' workout after the 3rd interval I had to extend the RI's to 2-3', last week I had to extend all the RI out to 2-3'.  I've done some other programs and with longer high threshold %/ low aerobic power % intervals like these the RI has always been at least 50% of the interval duration.

6x4' at 105+% with 45s RI, really who can do this?  Maybe if I came off a nice strong season of training, but from nothing to 5+ weeks, this is virtually impossible!  Like to hear the thoughts of those that have been around the block.

Yeah I know HTFU!!!

Is this day 51 of the power plan then? It says this:

6x4' (45" Rest@ 65-70% FT) as 1-5 set @ 20MP, 6th pushing 2-4w above of 20MP- the last (6th)

That says at 20 minute power, not 105%+. It might be that 105%+ for some, but that depends on where the 20' power is at. The way you wrote it looks like an odd VO2max set with the 45" of rest, where I'd say to rest up more if you need to and make sure to hit the power minimum. However, after seeing the original wording I agree with what Marc said and keep the RI the same and drop the power just a touch.

2016-01-14 8:10 AM
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Subject: RE: Biking: 6x4' intervals at 105+% with 45s RI, really?
Originally posted by Donto

Some of us are doing the BT Winter Cycling program and now at in the midst of the fun of the 2nd phase with the 6x4' workouts. I've done this program a couple of times now and still get stumped with the 6x4' workouts with the 45s rest intervals.  Are these workouts realistic with 45s RI's? Especially coming off a fresh CP test week were the CP has increased. Basically this workout is breaking the latest 20' CP test into 4' slices with 45s of rest?  This week for the 2nd 6x4' workout after the 3rd interval I had to extend the RI's to 2-3', last week I had to extend all the RI out to 2-3'.  I've done some other programs and with longer high threshold %/ low aerobic power % intervals like these the RI has always been at least 50% of the interval duration.

6x4' at 105+% with 45s RI, really who can do this?  Maybe if I came off a nice strong season of training, but from nothing to 5+ weeks, this is virtually impossible!  Like to hear the thoughts of those that have been around the block.

Yeah I know HTFU!!!




I just looked at the spreadsheet. Your 20' test was 239W and the critical power calculated at 230W. So 105% of your CP is 241W...only 2 Watts over what you did for the all out 20 minutes. I havn't read the full protocol for the winter plan, so I don't know if your CP test included doing teh 5' all out on the same day or a different day. If it was same day, then doing 6 x 4' @ 240W should feel pretty similar to your 20' test...but you get rest breaks.

So i would expect it to feel tough, but not impossible


Also, I don't know who made the spreadsheet, but there is a small error in the constants used for the critical power calculation for all but the first person. It's a quick fix and the error is likely pretty insignificant.

Edited by AdventureBear 2016-01-14 8:13 AM
2016-01-14 8:40 AM
in reply to: brigby1

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Subject: RE: Biking: 6x4' intervals at 105+% with 45s RI, really?

Brigby, yes starting with day 51, then 58 and 65.  I couldn't write a MRC file for "20MP", that's part of the problem with this trying to be generic for all to use with trainer programs such as TrainerRoad, MaximumTrainer, PerfPro, etc.  I looked at my history and 20MP has been +/-105% of CP so I went with that number.  The recent testing was a real good indicator of where I'm at, I was spent at the end of the 20' test and avg was a bit higher than expected.

I used the following guidelines for what threshold/interval levels are considered:

  • Endurance 55% to 75% 
  • Tempo >75% to 90%  (Sweetspot specific workouts targeted at 87% to 90%)
  • Threshold >90% to 105% 
  • Intervals >105%  

Suzanne, the 5' & 20' CP tests are performed on desperate days.

Marc, When I did the Power Mentor group last year a similar workout was more in line with some of the VO2max WO's such as this one, all had longer RI.  

  • WU 10:00 spin build to 65% of ,  5x15s all out, 45s spin 60% ,  5:00 spin 60% , 
  • MS 5x4:00 >105% (hard) 3:00 60% , 5:00 spin 60% , 5:00 at 98% 
  • CD 5:00 spin <60% 

At least everyone seems to agree, these 6x4' with 45s RI are hard!  I would much rather be able to complete the WO with a slightly lower setting or longer RI than have to bail on the WO.

2016-01-14 8:42 AM
in reply to: AdventureBear

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Subject: RE: Biking: 6x4' intervals at 105+% with 45s RI, really?

Originally posted by AdventureBear I just looked at the spreadsheet. Your 20' test was 239W and the critical power calculated at 230W. So 105% of your CP is 241W...only 2 Watts over what you did for the all out 20 minutes. I havn't read the full protocol for the winter plan, so I don't know if your CP test included doing teh 5' all out on the same day or a different day. If it was same day, then doing 6 x 4' @ 240W should feel pretty similar to your 20' test...but you get rest breaks. So i would expect it to feel tough, but not impossible Also, I don't know who made the spreadsheet, but there is a small error in the constants used for the critical power calculation for all but the first person. It's a quick fix and the error is likely pretty insignificant.
I made it, I'll take a look thanks for the heads up.  



2016-01-14 9:35 AM
in reply to: Donto

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Subject: RE: Biking: 6x4' intervals at 105+% with 45s RI, really?
Originally posted by Donto

Suzanne, the 5' & 20' CP tests are performed on desperate days.




I assume you meant separate days, but desperate days seems appropriate as well.

Do you agree though with the math I came up with ? your 20' power was 239, and 105% of your CP is 241? I'm not suggesting they are not hard, but it doesn't seem like it should be OMGHARD until at least the 4th or 5th one...
2016-01-14 9:37 AM
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Subject: RE: Biking: 6x4' intervals at 105+% with 45s RI, really?
Originally posted by Donto
Marc, When I did the Power Mentor group last year a similar workout was more in line with some of the VO2max WO's such as this one, all had longer RI.  

  • WU 10:00 spin build to 65% of ,  5x15s all out, 45s spin 60% ,  5:00 spin 60% , 
  • MS 5x4:00 >105% (hard) 3:00 60% , 5:00 spin 60% , 5:00 at 98% 
  • CD 5:00 spin <60% 

At least everyone seems to agree, these 6x4' with 45s RI are hard!  I would much rather be able to complete the WO with a slightly lower setting or longer RI than have to bail on the WO.




When Shayne wrote the workouts he had specific goals in mind which is why he wrote "> 105%" and allowed for longer recovery. Doing them at 106% was at the low end of what is possible. 110-112% was probably a better workout, but that depends on the person.

Jorge was very specifically looking for adaptations that required a shorter rest. He wrote about it. 105% of TRUE CP is tough but definitely doable. I am going through them this week and the next 4. THis week I did 5x4 and I came off feeling good, so I know 6x4 should be OK. A friend did hers recently and I think she swore a lot at me for suggesting them. But in both cases there was more work done before starting that block, hence my previous comment.

In both workouts I would say use the maximum amount of power that allows you to complete the workout while following the designated recovery times. But those two workouts are different.
2016-01-14 9:50 AM
in reply to: marcag

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Subject: RE: Biking: 6x4' intervals at 105+% with 45s RI, really?
Originally posted by marcag

Originally posted by Donto

Some of us are doing the BT Winter Cycling program and now at in the midst of the fun of the 2nd phase with the 6x4' workouts. I've done this program a couple of times now and still get stumped with the 6x4' workouts with the 45s rest intervals.  Are these workouts realistic with 45s RI's? Especially coming off a fresh CP test week were the CP has increased. Basically this workout is breaking the latest 20' CP test into 4' slices with 45s of rest?  This week for the 2nd 6x4' workout after the 3rd interval I had to extend the RI's to 2-3', last week I had to extend all the RI out to 2-3'.  I've done some other programs and with longer high threshold %/ low aerobic power % intervals like these the RI has always been at least 50% of the interval duration.

6x4' at 105+% with 45s RI, really who can do this?  Maybe if I came off a nice strong season of training, but from nothing to 5+ weeks, this is virtually impossible!  Like to hear the thoughts of those that have been around the block.

Yeah I know HTFU!!!




yes they are feasible, but they are hard. If you can't make it through there is a possibility that your CP is set to high.
IIRC he did 1 week of 5'x4. Do those with 1' rest. Next week add 1 to make it 6x4, Following week take 55sec, following 50, following 45s. If needed, do one week at 103%, then 104 then a mix and finally 105%. Don't increase the RI, that is not what he intended with those intervals.

If I were taking 3' RI, I would be doing them at 112% or so.

I do this block of workouts when it's tme to work on 20' power improvements. But you have to be ready for it. I personally found the workouts up until this point a little "light", which combined to non perfect testing could lead to some really hard workouts.




Agree with Marq here. 4' intervals with only 45s rest means that you will most likely not go above 105-110%, and if you do that on the first couple you'll feel it on the last few and may not be able to hold 105%. When I set my CP/FTP I do the 20' test AND a 5' test. Looking at those two results should give you an idea on how likely you are to hold 105% for 4' with 45s rest. I would guess that most people's 20' test power is at least 5% above their CP/FTP so this workout is asking to perform at that level for only 4' at a time with some rest in between.

How does your 20' test power compare to your 105% FTP power?

My 20' test power is 1.5% higher than my 105% FTP power.

FWIW when I do the Power Mentor group workouts I typically go 110-115% of FTP on intervals of 3-5' when there's 2-3' of active recovery (60% FTP) in between each one. The workouts usually state 105% but usually have (hard) after that, so I make my workout hard

There should be some suffering on these workouts for sure.

2016-01-14 10:05 AM
in reply to: reecealan

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Subject: RE: Biking: 6x4' intervals at 105+% with 45s RI, really?
Originally posted by reecealan


How does your 20' test power compare to your 105% FTP power?





The are nearly identical...see my post from before or peek at the spreadsheet. 239W is 20' power, 105% of his test CP, which includes his 5' test is 241W.

It should be a straightforward threshold workout for him. if not, something with the testing may have been funny. Maybe he went easy on the 5' test which would make the slope of his CP calculation shallower, and make his CP higher than it actually is.
2016-01-14 11:32 AM
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Subject: RE: Biking: 6x4' intervals at 105+% with 45s RI, really?

I've never tried 6x4' @ 20' power (or 105%) with only 45" rest intervals, but my first thought was yes it is possible...but it would be really really hard.  In theory, if you can hold a given wattage for 20' straight, you should also be able to hold the exact same power for a total of 24', with the exception that you also get five 45" rests in between.

This is also one of those examples of why it's not always necessary to do specific FTP or CP (20' tests) frequently.  A lot of times your interval workouts serve very well as a marker of your FTP.  If you finish this 6x4' workout at 108%, then you likely need to bump it up.  Struggle to hold 102% (assuming no other inhibiting factors, and you see similar results in other workouts) then you may need to adjust down.



Edited by Jason N 2016-01-14 11:35 AM


2016-01-14 11:50 AM
in reply to: AdventureBear

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Subject: RE: Biking: 6x4' intervals at 105+% with 45s RI, really?

Originally posted by AdventureBear
Originally posted by reecealan How does your 20' test power compare to your 105% FTP power?
The are nearly identical...see my post from before or peek at the spreadsheet. 239W is 20' power, 105% of his test CP, which includes his 5' test is 241W. It should be a straightforward threshold workout for him. if not, something with the testing may have been funny. Maybe he went easy on the 5' test which would make the slope of his CP calculation shallower, and make his CP higher than it actually is.
LOL, "Maybe he went easy on the 5' test..."!

I've done the CP tests at least 15 times, probably more.  Both of these tests this time around were about perfect, last minute of both were agonizing.

For the 20' test I did have the benefit of much drier & cooler weather that finally broke the summer-time winter we were having.  That did make a huge difference for the test, "Started out feeling good so I bumped it up after 3 minutes which bit me at the end as I was hurting bad for the 1-2 minutes."   So I can see the 20' test result being a bit higher than if it was 10-15 deg warmer and 70% humidity like it was for the 5' test.

Regardless, for the software programs that need a set value perhaps the % value for the 1st 5 intervals should lowered to 102% and the last one at 103%.  That would make the next week at 5x103% with last interval at 104%, and finally the following week then would be at 5x104% with last interval at 105%.

2016-01-14 12:00 PM
in reply to: Donto

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Subject: RE: Biking: 6x4' intervals at 105+% with 45s RI, really?
Originally posted by Donto

Originally posted by AdventureBear
Originally posted by reecealan How does your 20' test power compare to your 105% FTP power?
The are nearly identical...see my post from before or peek at the spreadsheet. 239W is 20' power, 105% of his test CP, which includes his 5' test is 241W. It should be a straightforward threshold workout for him. if not, something with the testing may have been funny. Maybe he went easy on the 5' test which would make the slope of his CP calculation shallower, and make his CP higher than it actually is.
LOL, "Maybe he went easy on the 5' test..."!

I've done the CP tests at least 15 times, probably more.  Both of these tests this time around were about perfect, last minute of both were agonizing.

For the 20' test I did have the benefit of much drier & cooler weather that finally broke the summer-time winter we were having.  That did make a huge difference for the test, "Started out feeling good so I bumped it up after 3 minutes which bit me at the end as I was hurting bad for the 1-2 minutes."   So I can see the 20' test result being a bit higher than if it was 10-15 deg warmer and 70% humidity like it was for the 5' test.

Regardless, for the software programs that need a set value perhaps the % value for the 1st 5 intervals should lowered to 102% and the last one at 103%.  That would make the next week at 5x103% with last interval at 104%, and finally the following week then would be at 5x104% with last interval at 105%.




Sorry i didn't mean to suggest you are a slacker.

The difference in conditions could be the difference in a more accurate CP test. THere would be no harm in repeating the 5' test in the cooler less humid conditions this week or weekend (maybe as a "warmup" to your regular ride) and see if it's markedly higher. That would make the slope steeper and should lower the CP to what's more realistic for you.

LIke I said in another thread, there's no real "wrong" answer here, but the knowledge you are gaining about your body, testing and training is all forward progress.
2016-01-14 12:56 PM
in reply to: Donto

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Subject: RE: Biking: 6x4' intervals at 105+% with 45s RI, really?
Originally posted by Donto

Some of us are doing the BT Winter Cycling program and now at in the midst of the fun of the 2nd phase with the 6x4' workouts. I've done this program a couple of times now and still get stumped with the 6x4' workouts with the 45s rest intervals.  Are these workouts realistic with 45s RI's? Especially coming off a fresh CP test week were the CP has increased. Basically this workout is breaking the latest 20' CP test into 4' slices with 45s of rest?  This week for the 2nd 6x4' workout after the 3rd interval I had to extend the RI's to 2-3', last week I had to extend all the RI out to 2-3'.  I've done some other programs and with longer high threshold %/ low aerobic power % intervals like these the RI has always been at least 50% of the interval duration.

6x4' at 105+% with 45s RI, really who can do this?  Maybe if I came off a nice strong season of training, but from nothing to 5+ weeks, this is virtually impossible!  Like to hear the thoughts of those that have been around the block.

Yeah I know HTFU!!!




Definitely one of the hardest workouts in my rotation. We did this for about 6 weeks last winter and expect to start them up again soon. They are possible but will push you to the edge. Started 1st week with 4x and 2nd with 5x before hitting 6x. And you are right that if you have just raised your CP number it might feel next to impossible. I think the first few weeks I was between 100-105%. And there was definitely a week in there that the legs didn't have it and called it off after a couple intervals.

The payoff is pretty cool though. Between this workout and then some sweet spot sessions 90% for 10' and 15', I was able to raise FTP from 229 to 247 in about 2.5 months.

And yeah, I think my coach told me to HTFU too!
2016-01-14 1:33 PM
in reply to: Donto

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Subject: RE: Biking: 6x4' intervals at 105+% with 45s RI, really?

I went through that program twice and that workout is the only one that stands out to me enough that I remember it specifically.  Really tough but doable if CP is right.

2016-01-14 2:47 PM
in reply to: AdventureBear

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Subject: RE: Biking: 6x4' intervals at 105+% with 45s RI, really?

Originally posted by AdventureBear
Originally posted by Donto

Originally posted by AdventureBear
Originally posted by reecealan How does your 20' test power compare to your 105% FTP power?
The are nearly identical...see my post from before or peek at the spreadsheet. 239W is 20' power, 105% of his test CP, which includes his 5' test is 241W. It should be a straightforward threshold workout for him. if not, something with the testing may have been funny. Maybe he went easy on the 5' test which would make the slope of his CP calculation shallower, and make his CP higher than it actually is.
LOL, "Maybe he went easy on the 5' test..."!

I've done the CP tests at least 15 times, probably more.  Both of these tests this time around were about perfect, last minute of both were agonizing.

For the 20' test I did have the benefit of much drier & cooler weather that finally broke the summer-time winter we were having.  That did make a huge difference for the test, "Started out feeling good so I bumped it up after 3 minutes which bit me at the end as I was hurting bad for the 1-2 minutes."   So I can see the 20' test result being a bit higher than if it was 10-15 deg warmer and 70% humidity like it was for the 5' test.

Regardless, for the software programs that need a set value perhaps the % value for the 1st 5 intervals should lowered to 102% and the last one at 103%.  That would make the next week at 5x103% with last interval at 104%, and finally the following week then would be at 5x104% with last interval at 105%.

Sorry i didn't mean to suggest you are a slacker. The difference in conditions could be the difference in a more accurate CP test. THere would be no harm in repeating the 5' test in the cooler less humid conditions this week or weekend (maybe as a "warmup" to your regular ride) and see if it's markedly higher. That would make the slope steeper and should lower the CP to what's more realistic for you. LIke I said in another thread, there's no real "wrong" answer here, but the knowledge you are gaining about your body, testing and training is all forward progress.
I know, I just found it funny!  Doing another 5' test now will really skew the CP as I've done 2 of these 6x4' workouts and 2 other workouts and can tell already that my legs are stronger.   I'll back off on the % a bit, 5w or so and continue on till the next test week in 2 weeks.

Part of my problem is that I started basically from 0 as I didn't ride after June of last year.  Muscular endurance simply is not there yet.



2016-01-14 2:52 PM
in reply to: StevenC

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Subject: RE: Biking: 6x4' intervals at 105+% with 45s RI, really?

Originally posted by StevenC
Originally posted by Donto

Some of us are doing the BT Winter Cycling program and now at in the midst of the fun of the 2nd phase with the 6x4' workouts. I've done this program a couple of times now and still get stumped with the 6x4' workouts with the 45s rest intervals.  Are these workouts realistic with 45s RI's? Especially coming off a fresh CP test week were the CP has increased. Basically this workout is breaking the latest 20' CP test into 4' slices with 45s of rest?  This week for the 2nd 6x4' workout after the 3rd interval I had to extend the RI's to 2-3', last week I had to extend all the RI out to 2-3'.  I've done some other programs and with longer high threshold %/ low aerobic power % intervals like these the RI has always been at least 50% of the interval duration.

6x4' at 105+% with 45s RI, really who can do this?  Maybe if I came off a nice strong season of training, but from nothing to 5+ weeks, this is virtually impossible!  Like to hear the thoughts of those that have been around the block.

Yeah I know HTFU!!!

Definitely one of the hardest workouts in my rotation. We did this for about 6 weeks last winter and expect to start them up again soon. They are possible but will push you to the edge. Started 1st week with 4x and 2nd with 5x before hitting 6x. And you are right that if you have just raised your CP number it might feel next to impossible. I think the first few weeks I was between 100-105%. And there was definitely a week in there that the legs didn't have it and called it off after a couple intervals. The payoff is pretty cool though. Between this workout and then some sweet spot sessions 90% for 10' and 15', I was able to raise FTP from 229 to 247 in about 2.5 months. And yeah, I think my coach told me to HTFU too!
Yeah, once we are about finished with the BT program I'm starting a 13 week Sprint training program.  I figured a Threshold WO akin to the 6x4', a 90' sweet spot and an outdoor weekend ride with a group will be good to be doing.

2016-01-14 2:55 PM
in reply to: Donto

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Subject: RE: Biking: 6x4' intervals at 105+% with 45s RI, really?
The nice part is that if you're saying the tests are hard/too hard you're probably doing them right! If you're not communicating to anyone that workouts are too hard they're probably too easy
2016-01-19 12:23 PM
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Subject: RE: Biking: 6x4' intervals at 105+% with 45s RI, really?

Originally posted by StevenC  And yeah, I think my coach told me to HTFU too!

I don't recall but I'm sure I did it politely 

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Intervals help a runner manage the intensity and learn to push at a pace that’s out of their comfort zone. Learn these five intervals with example workouts.
date : December 13, 2010
author : FitWerx
comments : 8
Choosing a groupset for your next bike? This article offers a detailed comparison of the differences between the Shimano 105 and Ultegra groupsets.
 
date : October 14, 2010
author : FitWerx
comments : 0
A review of the Shimano 105 vesus SRAM Rival Time Trial component group differences.
date : May 23, 2007
author : acbadger
comments : 5
When running or biking, is it best to work towards increasing distance, stamina, working with heart rates, intervals, speed, drills, etc.?
 
date : November 10, 2006
author : Valdora Cycles
comments : 1
Which component group is right for you? Here are some differences on weight, performance and price between the Dura-Ace, Ultegra and 105 component groups.
date : September 1, 2004
author : owie
comments : 0
“Less is more,” is a common buzz phrase in endurance sports today. It refers to the trend of training less but focusing on intensity and quality rather than on quantity.