General Discussion Triathlon Talk » IronMan Marathon HRT Zone 2 traning on long runs Rss Feed  
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2016-05-17 12:31 AM

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Subject: IronMan Marathon HRT Zone 2 traning on long runs

So right now I am using the IronFit/Don Fink book plan for my Ironman Madison Training. Basically it says to do all your long runs (as with 90% of all your runs) in Zone 2 Aerobic range. I am already a slow runner that does between 930-1015 min. miles on my 5 mile week days runs. My best marathon time is a 4h45m. So I am on the slower side by nature.

Now, to run in the zone 2 range I am running 12-13min. miles during my long runs. If I a top out at 3 hour long runs (where most EVERY article I read says to do most of my LR's between 2-2.5 hours) that means I am doing no longer then 14 miles for my long runs in the run up to Madison. This seems woefully inadequate!! Not to mention I feel like I am getting slower rather then faster (even if my ability to stay in z2 for longer and at a faster pace has gotten very slightly better over the last 12 weeks).

So my suggestion is what do I do? Has anyone that is approximately my speed (on the slower side) done purely Zone 2 HRT for their longs and maxed out at under 15 miles and feel like they have done well during their IM Marathon run?


2016-05-17 7:15 AM
in reply to: Tootshibbard

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Subject: RE: IronMan Marathon HRT Zone 2 traning on long runs

What is your HR range on those 5mi runs?

2016-05-17 8:10 AM
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Subject: RE: IronMan Marathon HRT Zone 2 traning on long runs
Yes. You can get by with less mileage. Leading up to my race I had one 16 miler, one 18 miler, and one 15 miler. in As you begin to do more long runs in Z2, your pace will likely increase. A 12-13 minute mile now might be a 10-11 minute mile at the same HR a few months down the road. I would take your stand alone marathon time with a grain of salt as well. My average marathon time was around 4:27-4:30, so I expected to be somewhere between 4:45 and 5:00 hrs. At Ironman Boulder, I went 4:25, and that was with several walking breaks. IMO, the key to a successful Ironman is what you do on the the bike. I think a lot of folks struggle with the run because they overdo it on the bike portion of the race (either by going too fast or being out there too long). If you can put together a solid ride, the run can be fairly manageable.


Edited by tedjohn 2016-05-17 8:15 AM
2016-05-17 8:55 AM
in reply to: Tootshibbard

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Subject: RE: IronMan Marathon HRT Zone 2 traning on long runs
Stick with it and your paces will come down, though the upcoming summer months (heat) might throw a wrench into the works. It seems like I get mad at my paces every summer only to be blown away at how much I've improved come fall... basically the heat goes away and my speeds at the same heart rate go way up, which makes sense.

I started using the Maffetone method in March... My first run was at a 13:45 pace and I felt like I was walking. I can now run around 11-11:30 at the same heart rate. I have started to plateau so we've started adding in Z2 runs, which is nice as it feels like running. My goal is to be around 10:00 / mile come Louisville in October while staying in a nice low heart rate zone.

2016-05-17 10:48 AM
in reply to: Tootshibbard

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Subject: RE: IronMan Marathon HRT Zone 2 traning on long runs

Not knowing your past, how were your HR zones determined?

Based on your 4:45 marathon, McMillan run calc shows the long run pace to be 10:42 to 11:53 /mi.  Again that depends when that time was recorded for a current effort.

Depending on time of year and acclimation to summer time temps, HR & pace can have quite a variable relationship.

2016-05-19 11:57 PM
in reply to: JohnnyKay

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Subject: RE: IronMan Marathon HRT Zone 2 traning on long runs
around 125bpm give or take a few. Which after doing the calc's in the last 24 hours I am now not sure are right at all. I had been just depending on my Garmin's 920 Zone 2 rating it gave me. Though I looked at their website today and it seems that there zone 3 is considered aerobic (while most other "experts" have zone 2 as aerobic and zone 3 as anerobic). So shame on me but I also feel a bit let down by German not using what I see as an almost universal chart for HRT zones.

I'm also have an issue on precisely what my Max HRT is. I went to get my LCT test and they said my max HRT (not my max aerobic HRT as far as I know) is 162. Meanwhile most of the online calculators putting in my general demographic info come out with a max HRT of 181 or so. So if I am going with a 70-80% of either (which would be zone 2) that makes an obvious big difference. Ughh!!!


2016-05-20 7:17 AM
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Subject: RE: IronMan Marathon HRT Zone 2 traning on long runs

It's not Garmin's fault.  You need to learn to understand how to use HR.  Start here.



Edited by JohnnyKay 2016-05-20 7:17 AM
2016-05-20 7:33 AM
in reply to: Tootshibbard

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Subject: RE: IronMan Marathon HRT Zone 2 traning on long runs
I might get some flack for this, but it has worked for me. Currently at a 3:24 PR in the marathon, and hoping to improve it on Saturday.......

1. Ditch the HRM, run by feel and time. If you feel good and feel that the effort is ez moderate then keep running at that pace.

2. Run fast at least once a week,. 800m (1/4 mile) intervals, tempo runs, hill sprints or whatever the training plan calls for.

3. Ditch the HRM. Did I already say that? Yes, I did. Everybody's body is different. You know your body better than anyone. If you can run for 2.5 hours at a comfortable pace, finish the run and say to yourself, "I could have gone another 2 miles" then that my friend is as close to the mythical zone 2 as you will ever need
2016-05-20 8:34 AM
in reply to: Mtnwesttri

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Subject: RE: IronMan Marathon HRT Zone 2 traning on long runs

Originally posted by Mtnwesttri I might get some flack for this, but it has worked for me. Currently at a 3:24 PR in the marathon, and hoping to improve it on Saturday....... 1. Ditch the HRM, run by feel and time. If you feel good and feel that the effort is ez moderate then keep running at that pace. 2. Run fast at least once a week,. 800m (1/4 mile) intervals, tempo runs, hill sprints or whatever the training plan calls for. 3. Ditch the HRM. Did I already say that? Yes, I did. Everybody's body is different. You know your body better than anyone. If you can run for 2.5 hours at a comfortable pace, finish the run and say to yourself, "I could have gone another 2 miles" then that my friend is as close to the mythical zone 2 as you will ever need

This is not bad advice.  The trick is to figure out what a comfortable pace is for you.  HR can help some people dial that feeling in when they don't have a lot of experience.  But if it 'gets in the way', it is by no means a necessity.  

2016-05-20 9:23 AM
in reply to: Tootshibbard

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Subject: RE: IronMan Marathon HRT Zone 2 traning on long runs
Give us a link to the Garmin Connect page. I'd be interested to take a look.

What's your HR on your 5 mile run?

What's your HR on your long run?

I'd venture to say your 5 milers are z2 and your long runs are z1. Are you doing any zone 4 work at this point? If you are running 220 minutes a week you should be zone 4/5 for 22 minutes. This will help build leg strength and get you moving faster.

Personally, I think that you need to do a Lactate Threshold Test and go from there. You probably have enough training under your belt to handle that.

This is really the best way to set up your HR zones.

Did the book not go into detail on how to arrange your HR zones?

Good news is that IM Madison is still quite a ways off. You'll be good to go.


I'll also second Maffetone. I've been running by my calculated Maffetone HR for the last three months. At first my miles times were in the 13:15 range at 139bpm now they are at 10:05 at 139bmp. So the type of training does work(for me)


2016-05-20 10:27 AM
in reply to: Tootshibbard

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Subject: RE: IronMan Marathon HRT Zone 2 traning on long runs

Originally posted by Tootshibbard around 125bpm give or take a few. Which after doing the calc's in the last 24 hours I am now not sure are right at all. I had been just depending on my Garmin's 920 Zone 2 rating it gave me. Though I looked at their website today and it seems that there zone 3 is considered aerobic (while most other "experts" have zone 2 as aerobic and zone 3 as anerobic). So shame on me but I also feel a bit let down by German not using what I see as an almost universal chart for HRT zones. I'm also have an issue on precisely what my Max HRT is. I went to get my LCT test and they said my max HRT (not my max aerobic HRT as far as I know) is 162. Meanwhile most of the online calculators putting in my general demographic info come out with a max HRT of 181 or so. So if I am going with a 70-80% of either (which would be zone 2) that makes an obvious big difference. Ughh!!!
JK gave the thread link, here is the LT test protocol article.  Definitely recommend you do the test and use the HR zones for it.  BT has a HR Zone calculator for LT (and other methods) or use the downloadable LTHR spreadsheet from Coach Mike's website.



2016-05-20 10:54 AM
in reply to: Donto


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Subject: RE: IronMan Marathon HRT Zone 2 traning on long runs
Sorry to OP for highjacking, but I have a sort of dumb question regarding the tests. Obviously new to the whole HR training. I did the bike test and I remember for the final 20 minutes I was in a gear that I was able to maintain around 90 rpm for the full 20 mins but by the end I was struggling, so I think I did that correctly. Now for the run, same concept correct? So for the final 20 mins just increase to a pace that is difficult but manageable for the full 20 mins?
2016-05-20 11:00 AM
in reply to: cdoug55

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Subject: RE: IronMan Marathon HRT Zone 2 traning on long runs

Originally posted by cdoug55 Sorry to OP for highjacking, but I have a sort of dumb question regarding the tests. Obviously new to the whole HR training. I did the bike test and I remember for the final 20 minutes I was in a gear that I was able to maintain around 90 rpm for the full 20 mins but by the end I was struggling, so I think I did that correctly. Now for the run, same concept correct? So for the final 20 mins just increase to a pace that is difficult but manageable for the full 20 mins?

Cadence is not a critical variable.  The idea is to do your best to hold a (nearly) steady pace/power output for 20min that you would not be able to hold for 21min (ie, 'empty the tank').  You should do a good warm-up prior to the test because you are not 'building' into the pace (although the effort will feel easier to start and your HR will obviously start lower and build).  Pace should be as steady as you can manage.  It often takes several attempts at tests like these to execute them well (and make the information you gather from them more valuable/accurate).

2016-05-20 11:48 AM
in reply to: JohnnyKay


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Subject: RE: IronMan Marathon HRT Zone 2 traning on long runs
Thanks for the response. Sounds like I performed the bike test correctly then. I will give the run test a shot soon. Im guessing its probably important to redo these tests every few months anyways just to see if any progress has been made that would result in adjustments to the zones.
2016-05-20 12:34 PM
in reply to: cdoug55

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Subject: RE: IronMan Marathon HRT Zone 2 traning on long runs

Originally posted by cdoug55 Thanks for the response. Sounds like I performed the bike test correctly then. I will give the run test a shot soon. Im guessing its probably important to redo these tests every few months anyways just to see if any progress has been made that would result in adjustments to the zones.
Your HR results may or may not change, depending on how well you do the tests.  My run tests were always in the range of 174-176.  My bike has shown a bit more change, 166 on my first time with low bike fitness to 173 during peak HIM training.  What I always made note of were the weather conditions and pace/speed results during the tests.

2016-05-20 11:16 PM
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Subject: RE: IronMan Marathon HRT Zone 2 traning on long runs
Originally posted by Nick B

Give us a link to the Garmin Connect page. I'd be interested to take a look.

What's your HR on your 5 mile run?

What's your HR on your long run?

I'd venture to say your 5 milers are z2 and your long runs are z1. Are you doing any zone 4 work at this point? If you are running 220 minutes a week you should be zone 4/5 for 22 minutes. This will help build leg strength and get you moving faster.

Personally, I think that you need to do a Lactate Threshold Test and go from there. You probably have enough training under your belt to handle that.

This is really the best way to set up your HR zones.

Did the book not go into detail on how to arrange your HR zones?

Good news is that IM Madison is still quite a ways off. You'll be good to go.

I'll also second Maffetone. I've been running by my calculated Maffetone HR for the last three months. At first my miles times were in the 13:15 range at 139bpm now they are at 10:05 at 139bmp. So the type of training does work(for me)




My Garmin ID name is "Tootshibbard". Though it isn't totally accurate as my Garmin has been fussing up on me some as well. Though I cross check with the HRT monitors at the gym on the treadmill more times then not.

Over the last 3 months I was aiming for a approx. 122-125 bpm be it on a 2 mile run or 12 mile run. That is what the Ironfit plan called for (90% of runs in zone 2). Now what my real "zone 2" aerobic HRT is I now find to be a more open question that i have to dial in. I got my LCT test at Univ.Ill.Chicago and they came up with 162 max heart rate which puts me 20 beats lower then the standard generic "age health rate" formula (I'm 39). So that would mean I have a natural lower heart rate. But I am going to do time trials this weekend or early next week suggested by some books to try to cross check that number.

Edited by Tootshibbard 2016-05-20 11:22 PM


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