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2016-06-14 7:06 AM

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Subject: Swim Kick
I have a feeling my kick is limiting me swimming.

I've been doing a two beat kick for two years(aos). I've been able to work my way down to 1:45/100m on 15 sec rest. For my main set. Can keep 1:51 for 1500.

But, in the open water I slowed way down to 2:15. Lots of factors but the big one is I felt my legs sinking.

Does any one swimming sets at 1:30 or better use a 2 beat kick?

I've never broken 0:45 for a 50m but yesterday after a ton of kicking I was able to hit 0:42. Full sprint only one.

My next big race is 4 mile open water it is at the end of August. My plan is 4 weeks of intensive kicking. Yesterday it was kick 100/ swim 50 on 15 sec rest. Any other ways to get better at kicking?


2016-06-14 11:49 AM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: Swim Kick

Originally posted by Nick B I have a feeling my kick is limiting me swimming. I've been doing a two beat kick for two years(aos). I've been able to work my way down to 1:45/100m on 15 sec rest. For my main set. Can keep 1:51 for 1500. But, in the open water I slowed way down to 2:15. Lots of factors but the big one is I felt my legs sinking. Does any one swimming sets at 1:30 or better use a 2 beat kick? I've never broken 0:45 for a 50m but yesterday after a ton of kicking I was able to hit 0:42. Full sprint only one. My next big race is 4 mile open water it is at the end of August. My plan is 4 weeks of intensive kicking. Yesterday it was kick 100/ swim 50 on 15 sec rest. Any other ways to get better at kicking?

 

I probably can't help you much.  I use a flutter kick and feel my kick is probably limiting me too.  Training in a 15 yard pool without swim lanes and using open turns I am a 2:00min/100m swimmer.  In the open water I am a 1:50 min/100m swimmer.  I attribute most of these gains to the wet suit keeping me higher in the water and having less drag. But no open turns seems to help too.  

I am very interested in what people have to say about the kick.  I know they say it is only about 10% of your thrust, but if it can reduce my drag by keeping me taller in the water as well as add some thrust then I may be able to see a 10+% improvement when I learn to really kick.  I would love to take 3-1/2 minutes off my swim in my next 70.3 race. :-



Edited by BlueBoy26 2016-06-14 11:52 AM
2016-06-14 11:58 AM
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Subject: RE: Swim Kick

When they teach young people to swim it always starts with the kick.  Use your own judgement on importance........hearing people who basically can't swim say that the kick is not important wears me out (and that's where this always goes).

Top the OP....you have the right idea.....it takes a lot of work and practice to develop.  Keep at it.

 



Edited by Left Brain 2016-06-14 11:59 AM
2016-06-14 12:48 PM
in reply to: Nick B

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Subject: RE: Swim Kick
2016-06-14 1:33 PM
in reply to: Nick B

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Subject: RE: Swim Kick

I can do around 1:40 using a two-beat kick in tri swims. Not the fastest guy around, but OK for a 63-year-old.   In the pool using a six-beat I'm in the mid- 20's most days.  (My PR this year is 1:17.5).

Our Masters coach always includes a lot of kick sets in our workouts, usually a minimum of 600 yds; sometimes as much as 1,000 yds.  .  .

We normally start off our warm-up every day with 200 swim followed by 200 kick (choice).  I usually split it up into 100 flutter / 100 dolphin, since I'm a butterflyer.

I like to use a snorkel to help maintain a good head & body alignment (as opposed to the folks who do "social kicking" with a board and their goggles up so they can chat and socialize during the set).  

A lot of times I'll do flutter kick sets without a board in streamline using my snorkel.  I like to really concentrate on feeling the water pressure on my feet, both on the downstroke and upstroke.

During our workout today we did a  5 x 50 flutter kick set, descending 1-5.  Our coach establishes kick push off intervals for us that we're expected to maintain.  It forces you to work at it rather than just cruise along.  It's just like anything else, if you want to be able to kick fast, then you have to practice kicking fast.  You need to be consistent and do it everyday as part of your workout, not just once a week or when you feel like it.  

Depending on what you read, kicking can add 10-15% to your propulsion, and it also serves to offset the deceleration experienced between arm pulls.

When I was working with Sheila Taormina last year, she had us practice using a six-beat kick during the 1st 100 of a tri swim to get some separation, drop down to a two-beat for the bulk of the race, and then back to a six-beat for the last for the last 100.  

Good luck,

Mark

  .  

 

      

 

 

2016-06-14 7:25 PM
in reply to: RedCorvette

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Subject: RE: Swim Kick
I guess I do what Mark says, I use a six-beat for the first 200 or so yards and then kick-in a 2 beat for the bulk of the 1.5K swim. I do think the two beat probably does scrub a small amount of speed, but not terribly so. I think the key is to use your core a bit more to make sure you are maintaining a hydrodynamic position as you move through the water. Drag is your enemy


2016-06-14 8:15 PM
in reply to: Nick B

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Subject: RE: Swim Kick
If your legs sink without a 6-beat kick, it's a body position/balance problem, not a kick problem. Kicking isn't terribly propulsive in freestyle, especially at those speeds. Even without seeing your stroke, I'm certain there are only minuscule gains to be had for you with a stronger kick compared to the gains you could achieve with better body position, and a better catch.

If you start with good position, but then the legs start to sink, its perhaps a core strength endurance issue. It takes stamina to keep your upper and lower body connected in a nice, tight, streamlined package through a long swim.

For any race over 500 yards,it's strictly 2-beat kick for me. I'm not fast, but I'm no slouch. I can hold 1:24/100 splits for a hour straight, 2 beat kicking the whole way, and recently did a 21:17 1650 in a meet, just 30 minutes after a 100 breast sprint (which is particularly brutal on the legs). Even on a 400/500, I'll only 6-beat kick the back half. Not that long ago, I wouldn't even 6-beat kick a 200 free. I could still break 2:10 with a two beat kick from start to finish. You don't need a 6 beat kick to hold 1:45/10 open water, or 1:30, or even 1:20. I've seen pool swimmers who do the 1650 in under 18 minutes with a two beat kick. Hell, Katie Ledecky used mostly a 4 beat kick to swim a World Record 15:25 in the 1500 meters.
2016-06-14 10:38 PM
in reply to: gary p

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Subject: RE: Swim Kick
I listen to the pod cast and thinking about what has been said. I do believe that my kicking technique is the problem. I kick too much from the knee and not enough from the hip. My hope is that by doing kick sets i'll be to put a better kick in place so that when I do complete a 2 beat kick it'll be more useful.
2016-06-14 10:54 PM
in reply to: Nick B

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Subject: RE: Swim Kick
Held 1.07s for my 800m this year. Mostly 2 beat kick except the first 25 and last 50. I kick faster than most triathletes can swim. Having a good kick helps the body position.
2016-06-14 11:49 PM
in reply to: Nick B

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Subject: RE: Swim Kick
Originally posted by Nick B

I have a feeling my kick is limiting me swimming.

I've been doing a two beat kick for two years(aos). I've been able to work my way down to 1:45/100m on 15 sec rest. For my main set. Can keep 1:51 for 1500.

But, in the open water I slowed way down to 2:15. Lots of factors but the big one is I felt my legs sinking.

Does any one swimming sets at 1:30 or better use a 2 beat kick?

I've never broken 0:45 for a 50m but yesterday after a ton of kicking I was able to hit 0:42. Full sprint only one.

My next big race is 4 mile open water it is at the end of August. My plan is 4 weeks of intensive kicking. Yesterday it was kick 100/ swim 50 on 15 sec rest. Any other ways to get better at kicking?


that kind of drop off betwen pool & OW isn't due to your kick. Something else is happening in OW that is changing your stroke and adding a stronger kick may compensate, but it's not the root of the issue. i'ts likely you're spending a lot of time looking forward or up and that's what is sinking yoru legs.
2016-06-15 12:54 AM
in reply to: AdventureBear

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Subject: RE: Swim Kick

Originally posted by AdventureBear
Originally posted by Nick B I have a feeling my kick is limiting me swimming. I've been doing a two beat kick for two years(aos). I've been able to work my way down to 1:45/100m on 15 sec rest. For my main set. Can keep 1:51 for 1500. But, in the open water I slowed way down to 2:15. Lots of factors but the big one is I felt my legs sinking. Does any one swimming sets at 1:30 or better use a 2 beat kick? I've never broken 0:45 for a 50m but yesterday after a ton of kicking I was able to hit 0:42. Full sprint only one. My next big race is 4 mile open water it is at the end of August. My plan is 4 weeks of intensive kicking. Yesterday it was kick 100/ swim 50 on 15 sec rest. Any other ways to get better at kicking?
that kind of drop off betwen pool & OW isn't due to your kick. Something else is happening in OW that is changing your stroke and adding a stronger kick may compensate, but it's not the root of the issue. i'ts likely you're spending a lot of time looking forward or up and that's what is sinking yoru legs.

Sighting.



2016-06-15 6:40 AM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Swim Kick
Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by AdventureBear
Originally posted by Nick B I have a feeling my kick is limiting me swimming. I've been doing a two beat kick for two years(aos). I've been able to work my way down to 1:45/100m on 15 sec rest. For my main set. Can keep 1:51 for 1500. But, in the open water I slowed way down to 2:15. Lots of factors but the big one is I felt my legs sinking. Does any one swimming sets at 1:30 or better use a 2 beat kick? I've never broken 0:45 for a 50m but yesterday after a ton of kicking I was able to hit 0:42. Full sprint only one. My next big race is 4 mile open water it is at the end of August. My plan is 4 weeks of intensive kicking. Yesterday it was kick 100/ swim 50 on 15 sec rest. Any other ways to get better at kicking?
that kind of drop off betwen pool & OW isn't due to your kick. Something else is happening in OW that is changing your stroke and adding a stronger kick may compensate, but it's not the root of the issue. i'ts likely you're spending a lot of time looking forward or up and that's what is sinking yoru legs.

Sighting.




^^^ when, most people sight they lift their heads a lot, which in turn drops their legs and slows them down.
2016-06-15 7:01 AM
in reply to: mike761

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Subject: RE: Swim Kick
Agreed that sighting has been a major problem for me in the past. I've also had a significant problem with veering to one side or another. I've worked fairly hard on my catch and making sure each arm is taking the same path through the water. So I'm swimming straighter and sighted less than before. I think getting in the open water more often and getting more comfortable will allow me to put in more effort to swim at the speed I want to swim.

I understand that you guys are fairly fast swimmers but as an AOS swimmer I don't have hundreds of thousands of yards in my past. I have a feeling that some of you developed a strong kick a long time ago and it has carried over to your triathlon swimming.

So will doing kick sets engrain a more useful kicking motion that will help me whether it is a two beat or six beat kick?
2016-06-15 7:41 AM
in reply to: Nick B

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Subject: RE: Swim Kick


Kicking is an important part of swimming, along with a dozen other elements and another dozen in the two other sports. So you have to assess it's priority relative to other things

A better kick for slighly better propulsion and possibly better body position may net you a bit of time, both in the pool and the OWS.

But if you are truly 25s/100m slower in OWS you probably have lower hanging fruit to pick and that's what you should put more time into figuring that out

Me, I would try to get to the root of the problem

Is that 2:15 per 100m accurate ? Where did you get it ? Accurate race courses are almost impossible to find
What happens if you are wearing a wetsuit ? If you are much better with a wetsuit, this is a hint it's body position.
If you are slow in OWS with a wetsuit, that's a hint you are all over the place

If you are doing a 4km OWS race, I suspect a 6 beat kick is not your #1 priority

I would just hate to see you spend a lot of time, developing something that is useful, but just not that useful for you

2016-06-15 11:05 AM
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Subject: RE: Swim Kick
Originally posted by marcag


Kicking is an important part of swimming, along with a dozen other elements and another dozen in the two other sports. So you have to assess it's priority relative to other things

A better kick for slighly better propulsion and possibly better body position may net you a bit of time, both in the pool and the OWS.

But if you are truly 25s/100m slower in OWS you probably have lower hanging fruit to pick and that's what you should put more time into figuring that out

Me, I would try to get to the root of the problem

Is that 2:15 per 100m accurate ? Where did you get it ? Accurate race courses are almost impossible to find
What happens if you are wearing a wetsuit ? If you are much better with a wetsuit, this is a hint it's body position.
If you are slow in OWS with a wetsuit, that's a hint you are all over the place

If you are doing a 4km OWS race, I suspect a 6 beat kick is not your #1 priority

I would just hate to see you spend a lot of time, developing something that is useful, but just not that useful for you




I think you said what I meant to say, but probably failed. I never meant to imply taht the kick is unimportant, although after re-reading my first post in this thread I can see how I might have come off that way. I do agree, however, that at the speed the OP's currently at, even in the pool, there's got to be a lot of lower hanging fruit to go after. Especially in preparation for a 4 mile race.





Originally posted by Nick B

I understand that you guys are fairly fast swimmers but as an AOS swimmer I don't have hundreds of thousands of yards in my past. I have a feeling that some of you developed a strong kick a long time ago and it has carried over to your triathlon swimming.


It's more that we have hundreds of thousands (really, millions) of yards of total stroke technique programming. The kick is part of that, but it's more the coordinated timing than the power. I mentioned earlier that I could click of 1:24/100 splits for an hour straight. If I stick a pull buoy between my legs, I probably loose only a second or two per hundred on a long swim like that. Yes, a powerful kick can be the difference between being a good swimmer and an exceptional swimmer like simpsonbo. But it's probably pretty far down on the list of things that would help you improve from your current state if you ranked them in order of effort/reward ratio.

Originally posted by Nick B
So will doing kick sets engrain a more useful kicking motion that will help me whether it is a two beat or six beat kick?


Not necessarily. You can gain kick strength and/or ankle flexibility, but your body position with a kickboard is not the same as it should be when swimming. In fact, that improper body position may leak over to your swimming, causing more problems that you're solving with a stronger kick.

https://coachrickswimming.com/2014/04/16/the-case-against-kickboards...


Long story short, if you want do a few kick sets, do a few kick sets. But don't overdo it. A stronger kick is not the magic bullet to get you from a 2:15/100 open water swimmer to 1:45/100. You should spend a lot more time working on your total stroke, and how the kick integrates into that.

http://www.swimsmooth.com/kick_adv.html



Edited by gary p 2016-06-15 11:06 AM
2016-06-15 8:35 PM
in reply to: gary p

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Subject: RE: Swim Kick
I may have misjudged how well I swam. Really hard to tell. I didn't hit my lap button until I was back into transition and that made my per/100 time look much better than it should. I went back and found a point near the end of the swim and calculated my time. It looks like I swam 1:53/100m and 1:43/100y (which ever you prefer)

Looking back I swam much better than I thought I did originally. But, I still think that this is a valid conversation for me to have with my self. I still did a kick set today and I feel like it helps me. I am bad for kicking at the knee and not the hip. I heeded some advice from here and worked on keeping my core tight(plank in the water feeling) I was able to hold 1:41/100m @ 15 sec rest for 8. Not a huge set but slow kicking take a lot of time. Still lots of low hanging fruit to be had. I'll get there.


I finished the 4 miles (6.5km) in 3:09 two years ago. I'd love to be under 2:30 this year. I can wear a wet suit, so I will. Hoping that will shave a few seconds off my time as well. Then it'll be on the bike/kayak/run!



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